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TaraR
(Arizona)

Posts:24

06/27/2006 5:22 PM
Question, we have a community pool in a development of 74 houses. There is no rules or regulation in the CC&R's that are descriptive for the pool area. There are a few vague rules on a sign on the pool. I have members telling me that an adult has to be in attendance with children. I have a 16-year nanny that takes my children swimming during summer break. She was asked to leave by another member because she's not 18. On rule on the sign says, "Children should be accompanied by an adult". Now, the board wants to change the rules. Can the board tighten or modify the rules (putting an age limit) on users without the vote or a quorum of the community?

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/27/2006 7:32 PM
Tara: It would depend on where those rules came from, if they are in fact rules or just something put up by someone a long time ago. I would think your board could modify the rule.

SwanB
(Washington)

Posts:194

06/27/2006 9:34 PM
We have bylaws and covenants that can only be changed by a 2/3rd. majority vote of a quorum of our voting membership. We also have Rules & Regulations the Board creates to monitor activities in the Clubhouse, tennis courts and swimming pool. These Rules & Regs do not need the 2/3rd. majority vote by our membership to alter, change, amend or create but this is written into our governing documents and all of these details should be written into yours.

GeraldT1

Posts:0

06/28/2006 5:15 AM
TaraR - A good place to start developing rules is by contacting your borough's Board of Health Inspector. If there is nothing descriptive in your cc&r's then you must look elsewhere in your governing documents to see the broad powers of the board and the percentage necessary to amend. However, I would be cautious in protesting a pool rule. They should be developed, prominently posted, and well published to protect you, your family, and reduce the liability of the association. It is not unreasonable that a child be accompanied by an adult. Unfortunately, this may cut into your free time. GeraldT1

SwanB
(Washington)

Posts:194

06/28/2006 5:29 AM
I would like to second GeraldT1 post and suggest you start with your County or City Health Department as far as setting up the guidelines for your community pool rules, if you haven't established these yet. Our rules were dictated by the Health Department; things like eating and drinking, floatation devices and specific age limits were not items we would have necessarily come up with as stringently as the Health Department. And ended up in violation of their rules and shut down by them.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/28/2006 7:19 AM
Tara: I agree that with the above that you should check with your local health department. Someone in the association should have a contact number because I am assuming they do periodic checks on your pool. Unless their language is specific as to an age requirement, it comes down to your boards feelings on what constitutes an adult? Is it 18, or does your board think a 16 or 14 year old is an adult. Just because someone is 18 doesn't mean they won't be making out with their boyfriend/girlfriend and ignoring your kids swimming in the pool. But it does give a layer of protection in case of a lawsuit.

JulieS
(Georgia)

Posts:412

06/28/2006 6:59 PM
Our board members attended an HOA seminar in March hosted by our association's attorney/firm. This year they had a break-out session regarding pools and the many issues concerning them. I am going to quote a portion of an article that was published in our attorney's magazine regarding this very issue with pools and the age thing: "Pool rules must not only reflect the community’s needs, but they must also comply with applicable federal, state and local laws. While very few community associations are subject to the requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), all associations are subject to the terms of the Fair Housing Act (FHA) Amendments of 1988. The FHA makes it illegal to discriminate against any person in the provision of housing-related services or facilities based on familial status. “Familial status” is defined in the FHA as one or more persons who have not attained the age of 18 who live with a parent or legal guardian. Additionally, publishing a rule that violates the FHA is, in itself, a violation, even if the rule is not always enforced. The result of this is that community associations may not discriminate in the provision of services or facilities to families with children. This means that associations should eliminate all ‘adult swim’ times. Under the FHA, associations also may not restrict children from the pool based on age, except for the sole protection of the child. Court and administrative rulings across the country routinely strike down rules prohibiting children from using the pool without an adult until they are 13, 14 or older. Under those decisions, associations are generally permitted to restrict unsupervised pool use to children under 12 years old." One reason behind this from what I understand is that a 13 year old may be able to swim better than an 18 year old and unless you test everyone on their swimming capabilities the age of the person is irrelevant. And of course the FHA ruling. Because of what we learned in the seminar, we immediately changed our pool rules to read that that children 12 and under must be accompanied by an adult. Hope this helps

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1748

06/29/2006 1:24 PM
"Accompanied by an adult"... love it. How exactly do we test for "adulthood"? The age of consent? Age you can smoke? Drink? Vote? Chew TObacco? Drive? Join the Military? Legally be emancipated? In most states, the answers to those questions will garner you AT LEAST 4 different ages, and as pointed out, none of them mean you won't be making out with a friend, listening to your ipod, or asleep on the lounger while the kids frolic. I would suggest petitioning the board to change the rule to "accompanied by a responsible party"... I can certainly make a case that grandpa asleep in his chair is not responsible, nor is little Terri while making out behind the bushes with Pat. Neither is acting responsibly when they are entrusted to protect lives. But Angel there, the 15 year old with LIfesaving courses under the belt, First Aid training, a whistle and an eagle eye is more responsible than any of them.

EdR
(Texas)

Posts:170

06/29/2006 1:48 PM
I may have missed something here, but I'm assuming there are no lifeguards on duty at your pool? Our pool has two lifeguards all day on the day the pool is open from Memorial Day thru Labor Day except for Mondays (for cleaning and shocking). This is part of a contract with a pool company (lifeguards and maintenance). Children 12 and under must be accompanied by an adult if non-swimmers, but 10 or under if swimmers (they have to show the lifeguard that they can swim)to be left there without an adult. Plus, they must have a tag obtained from the HOA that they are a member/homeowner and can have guests within reason. The problem we incur is parents dropping kids off to be babysat all day and they distract the lifeguards at times because of being unruly. Since I don't totally trust the lifeguards, my spouse or I have always sat by the pool while our child swims. The lifeguards are usually pretty young themselves, and therefore will not enforce discipline on others so near their ages. They also let the guest situation get out of hand by not enforcing too many kids being there together. I would like to see our pool allow swimming at your own risk and be able to go there (and the kids with an adult) whenever I please with a key to the facility since I pay for it, but that isn't likely to happen. EdR

SwanB
(Washington)

Posts:194

06/30/2006 5:45 AM
Our County Health Department requires a lifeguard for our pool only if we have a diving board (our deep end is 9 feet). We took the diving board out and the requirement went away. The County Health Dept. is specific about what 'acommpanied by an adult' means concerning age range on children though and you should check it out with them. In our County, if your inspector shows up and there is a 4 year old who can swim in the pool without an adult in the water with them, you will get shut down and cited. Know your County Health Department's rules on swimming pools because the inspector is the one who has the power to cite your association and shut you down.

JulieS
(Georgia)

Posts:412

06/30/2006 6:44 AM
Our pool is 'swim at your own risk'. We cannot afford a lifeguard and we also learned in the seminar that if you have a lifeguard, the HOA has a higher risk of liability. People let their guard down (such as dropping their kids off at the pool to be babysat by the lifeguard). If something does happen, the responsibility has shifted from the individual or parent to the lifeguard, who was hired by the HOA. On an ironic note, our county requires a lifeguard stand at the pool but does not require a lifeguard! Our pool goes to 5' and kids are always jumping off the lifeguard stand. We wanted to take it down because it is a dangerous situation (parents not being at the pool with their kids and making sure they are not on the stand). There is conflict within the county health department on this issue...one year a guy said to take it down and store it (we pass since we have a stand) because he knows they are dangerous. But the next year, a returning employee to the health department says we cannot do that, you have to have the stand at the pool side. We stick with the 'swim at your risk' and try to encourage residents to keep an eye on things as the amenities are their property and everyone needs to help in taking care of it. I am always yelling at kids to get off tables, lifeguard stands, etc. I have letters sent to the homes on various issues (supplying minors with alcohol, kids misbehaving, and reminders to delinquent homeowners that they cannot use the amenities). We also encourage residents to call 911 if they see anything illegal going on (supplying minors with alcohol, and any incident with child molestation, etc.). Yes, we have a guy who takes pictures of young girls at the pool and other things. I am trying to get across to folks that they need to supervise their children while at the pool. We also require everyone to sign the pool rules when they get their pool key. It states that they agree to the rules and that any violation or damage by the owner, children or guests, can result in loss of use or fines. It is a time consuming process but it gives us something to fall back on if needed.

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