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BobM9
(Virginia)

Posts:1

07/01/2008 8:14 PM
I went to the county to sub-divide two lots into four lots. They approved, so I thought I had better get the HOA blessing so I went to the BOD and they turned me down. Does anybody know whether the HOA has the authority to this after the county has approved the sub-division?

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:917

07/01/2008 9:05 PM
You will have to read through your governing documents to find out if the BOD has such authority or not. Because each HOA/POA has its own set of rules, we wouldn't know without having read your set of rules. Generally though, property associations are not bound to allow something just because city or county government does. In fact, often the whole point is to further restrict property beyond what government would.

GloriaL
(Georgia)

Posts:98

07/02/2008 8:06 AM
We went through this two years ago. Our CCR's have a section which covers "Subdivision of Lots" and stipulates that "No Lot...may be further subdivided..." You would think that was pretty clear, but the HomeOwner who was on the BOD at the time (and would not recuse himself from voting on this issue), thought the BOD could write a a Rule & Regulation granting an exception. The BOD said that Rules & Regulations could only clarify existing CCR's, not write something in direct conflict. He wanted to sell the land to a different developer and the Lots would not be part of our Association and they would be accessed from an exterior road. So then he asked to be put on the agenda for the Annual Meeting to amend the CCR's concerning Subdivision of Lots, but make it specific so that only his Lot could fall under the allowed subdividing. That went to the Annual Meeting, which turned very vocal (that is a putting it politely). The outcome was that the CCR's were not amended, the application to subdivide was denied, that HomeOwner is no longer on the BOD, and now talks to no one in the Community. But other things which we learned during this process that you may need to know: 1. The CCR's run with the land, not the landowner 2. If a property is subdivided from the original plat, it is still bound by the CCR's. 3. To release the land out of the Association, a new survey of the Association and a new plat must be filed with new boundaries. This was a very trying couple of months for the BOD whose responsibility is to the Association and enforcing the CCR's...not fun by any means. My advice is to read carefully and thoroughly your CCR's. If it specifies no subdivision yet you persist in wanting this, you really need the expert advice of legal counsel. You may need to put your hand very deeply into your pocket, but realize that your decision will affect everyone in your Community. Gloria

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

07/02/2008 11:01 AM
yes they do...the answer lies within your documents.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1575

07/02/2008 12:08 PM
Yes, they do, IF that provision is addressed in your governing documents. The lots in our community cannot be subdivided, per our CC&Rs. So even if someone went to the county to get it done, they would have to "undo" it. The county does not enforce our CC&Rs. Our county also does not disallow above-ground pools, but our CC&Rs do. Therefore, even if one were to go to the county and get a "permit" for an above-ground pool, one would still not be able to erect it in our subdivision based on our CC&Rs.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1646

07/02/2008 12:15 PM
our HOA, for example, forbides subdividing the lots below 2 acres, or creating any lot less than 2 acres (to prevent back door sneaky methods). So, if your contract says you can't subdivide, you can't subdivide. the devil is in the rules.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1893

07/02/2008 12:17 PM
Posted By BobM9 on 07/01/2008 8:14 PM I went to the county to sub-divide two lots into four lots. They approved, so I thought I had better get the HOA blessing so I went to the BOD and they turned me down. Does anybody know whether the HOA has the authority to this after the county has approved the sub-division? Bob, As several others have stated, yes the HOA has the authority! Many people think if the county/city approves something or allows something then it's OK. Well, not so, if you live in an HOA. The CCRs can be more restrictive than county/city code they just cannot allow something prohibited by county/city code. If you want to make an improvement on your property such as an addition to your home you should first get approval from the HOA, then apply to the county/city for a permit. Always get the HOA approval first! As for subdividing the lot; the answer to that question lies in your CCRs.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:441

07/02/2008 2:20 PM
Mary, CCR's here require all plans submitted to the ARC to "shall bear the approval of the Town if required by law". Seems silly to me to require a homeowner to pay for the permit before ARC approval in case it isn't approved but...

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1646

07/02/2008 5:33 PM
maybe if the owner has read enough to know he needs city permits before submitting to the ARC, he might have read enough to know if what he is trying to do is CC& R legal too?

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1893

07/02/2008 7:01 PM
Posted By DJ1 on 07/02/2008 2:20 PM Mary, CCR's here require all plans submitted to the ARC to "shall bear the approval of the Town if required by law". Seems silly to me to require a homeowner to pay for the permit before ARC approval in case it isn't approved but... DJ, Sounds to me like your assn might defer to the town if a permit was granted.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:441

07/02/2008 10:28 PM
Posted By MaryA1 on 07/02/2008 7:01 PM Posted By DJ1 on 07/02/2008 2:20 PM Mary, CCR's here require all plans submitted to the ARC to "shall bear the approval of the Town if required by law". Seems silly to me to require a homeowner to pay for the permit before ARC approval in case it isn't approved but... DJ, Sounds to me like your assn might defer to the town if a permit was granted. Not necessarily Mary. You need a permit for shed over a certain size but the HOA wouldn't 'defer' just because the permit was issued. I can also get a permit to do electrical for a floodlight but the HOA CCR's say no. Lots of other examples.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:441

07/02/2008 10:31 PM
Posted By MaryA1 on 07/02/2008 7:01 PM Posted By DJ1 on 07/02/2008 2:20 PM Mary, CCR's here require all plans submitted to the ARC to "shall bear the approval of the Town if required by law". Seems silly to me to require a homeowner to pay for the permit before ARC approval in case it isn't approved but... DJ, Sounds to me like your assn might defer to the town if a permit was granted. A better real life example was a HO wanted a sunroom. Got the plans, approval and permit from the Town. Submitted it all to the ARC and was denied. Another HO's view (of the clubhouse!) was going to be obstructed.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1893

07/03/2008 1:17 PM
DJ, Going back to your orginal statement: I agree it is ridiculous to require a town permit b/4 A/C approval. Regarding the denial of the sun room: Unless the docs. preserve views, I certainly would challenge. Sounds like someone is doing favors for a friend!!

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:917

07/04/2008 1:15 PM
It would seem much better to have the the ACC approval contingent upon the city/county approval or permitting. This way a homeowner doesn't have to pay for permitting only to have the project denied by the HOA.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1304

07/04/2008 9:51 PM
Posted By BrianB on 07/02/2008 12:15 PM our HOA, for example, forbides subdividing the lots below 2 acres, or creating any lot less than 2 acres (to prevent back door sneaky methods). So, if your contract says you can't subdivide, you can't subdivide. the devil is in the rules. Brian I can remember receiving a gift of "One Square Inch" of land along with the registered deed when I was a kid. I still have that deed somewhere although I'm sure the land was sold for taxes long ago. This could be what the OP had in mind.

GloriaL
(Georgia)

Posts:98

07/05/2008 4:07 PM
Our town has a check-off box of some permit applications if a HOA approval is required. Thus, the HomeOwner would have to get HOA approval BEFORE applying to the town and paying any fees. Also, our HOA approval letter stipulates that the approval is granted pending the HomeOwner fulfills all guidelines/procedures/set backs/permits required by the town. I guess we tried to cover our butts so a HomeOwner cannot say that since they got approval from the HOA, they went ahead with anything which would be denied by the town's restrictions. Gloria

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