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JoseS2
(California)

Posts:11

06/30/2008 9:41 AM
We are a board that are in the process of updating or parking rules because one member will not park their commercial truck off the site. So here is where we are at. The member that is protesting has some intersting arguements why they should not move. Some of the board agrees with them some do not but here is our proposed new parking rules. COMMERCIAL VEHICLE RESTRICTIONS No commercial vehicle which is owned by a resident shall be parked in the residents driveway or on the street. Such resident-owned commercial vehicles must be parked behind the fence or in the garage of the resident. Any commercial vehicle which is non-resident owned and is present in the project for purposes of delivery of goods or services shall not park in the project for any more than a nine hour period and under no circunstances be parked in the project overnight. That is what our change is to be. It also states as a definition that "any vehicles that are required to be registered under the state vehicle code 260 as a commercial vehicle and is used on a regular basis as part of an ongoing business endeeavor and/or for compensation or proit" I am afraid that includes pickups and SUV's, Police cars, ect. My questions Should we include signage or advertising in our restrictions because in our state many of the pickups are commercial registered. Is that the same thing or should we be more specific? Also is there a place we can get samples of parking rules as a guide? We have been going at this for months and are almost at the point we are to finalize this. I just want to do the correct thing as a board member. Thank You.

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:321

06/30/2008 11:52 AM
We only had a problem with one owner who parked a commercial vehicle in his driveway. He worked for a pest control company and this owner remarked that the HOA would never do anything about his parking it here. I called his company and let them know their vehicle was parked in our HOA which was against our covenants. He told me he understood because he too lived in an HOA. You might try that for any commercial vehicles that are not owned by members of your HOA.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

06/30/2008 12:33 PM
Posted By JoseS2 on 06/30/2008 9:41 AM We are a board that are in the process of updating or parking rules because one member will not park their commercial truck off the site. So here is where we are at. The member that is protesting has some intersting arguements why they should not move. Some of the board agrees with them some do not but here is our proposed new parking rules. COMMERCIAL VEHICLE RESTRICTIONS No commercial vehicle which is owned by a resident shall be parked in the residents driveway or on the street. Such resident-owned commercial vehicles must be parked behind the fence or in the garage of the resident. Any commercial vehicle which is non-resident owned and is present in the project for purposes of delivery of goods or services shall not park in the project for any more than a nine hour period and under no circunstances be parked in the project overnight. That is what our change is to be. It also states as a definition that "any vehicles that are required to be registered under the state vehicle code 260 as a commercial vehicle and is used on a regular basis as part of an ongoing business endeeavor and/or for compensation or proit" I am afraid that includes pickups and SUV's, Police cars, ect. My questions Should we include signage or advertising in our restrictions because in our state many of the pickups are commercial registered. Is that the same thing or should we be more specific? Also is there a place we can get samples of parking rules as a guide? We have been going at this for months and are almost at the point we are to finalize this. I just want to do the correct thing as a board member. Thank You. First, i would disagree with your statement that pickup trucks are included. My truck is registered as a commerical vehicle, but it is NOT used on a regular basis for an ongoing business endeavor. It doesn't meet your definition of a commercial vehicle. So, my truck would be exempt from your rule, as would most people's trucks and SUV's that are driven for pleasure or to get back and forth to their work. So most owners shouldn't have a problem, only those owners whose trucks are licensed as commercial, carry advertising or are used as a work truck or as part of an ongoing business endeavor.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1444

06/30/2008 12:38 PM
Our definition of "commercial vehicle" includes any signage on the vehicle. Partly because we also have a "signage" restriction so this better aligns the two. This also means that vehicles that would not NORMALLY be considered "commercial" can simply use magnetic covers on the signage and still be able to park their cars in the driveway.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:63

06/30/2008 12:41 PM
I have the opposite problem. The HOA allows commercial trucks to be parked in driveways as long as they aren't there longer than 48 hours at a time...and when I say commercial trucks, I'm talking about the tractor rig (this one owned by Home Depot) of an 18-wheeler...and that includes vans which are clearly for commercial use (Western Sizzler van used for catering) and licensed as such.

MikeS1
(Virginia)

Posts:614

06/30/2008 1:25 PM
Not sure if you have both single family homes and townhomes, but here's some ideas from a townhome community. Our problem with large vehicles stems from the fact that our parking spaces are (by industry standard) defined as 'Compact", so if you park two 3/4 trucks or two 3/4 Yukons etc, next to each other, there's only 8 inches between the vehicles. Try this... 6 Tradesmen. Vehicles of companies making repairs, replacements, deliveries, etc., are permitted between 7 a.m. and 9 p.m. Companies needing all-day parking should park in the homeowner’s designated reserved parking space or the driveway. No overnight parking of commercial vehicles is permitted. The term "commercial vehicle" is defined in the Design Guidelines and is further defined in Section 3-C below. 3(d) Commercial Vehicles. Parking of commercial vehicles in the Community is not allowed. Greenfield County defines commercial vehicles as any vehicle with a carrying capacity of 1500 pounds (¾ ton) or more. It matters not what use is intended or the manner in which it is registered—commercial vehicles cannot be parked in open view in the Community. Additionally, any resident vehicle with advertising, regardless of its carrying capacity, is considered a commercial vehicle and cannot be parked in open view in the Community. Advertising is defined to include, but not be limited to, the display of a company logo and/or product name and telephone number and/or email address. Any vehicle with pipe racks or ladder racks, a combination thereof, or any other visible commercial equipment is also considered to be a commercial vehicle.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1221

06/30/2008 1:42 PM
Jose the homeowner in question wouldn't be named BobT would they? We've had a poster complaining because his HOA is after him because he won't park his "large" commercial vehicle behind the fence when others in the community have pickups that are registered as commercial.

CharlesH9
(Michigan)

Posts:62

07/01/2008 5:37 AM
Our streets were dedicated to the county. Does this still make them the HOA's? Some think you can't restrict county roads. Also what about the "commecial" vehicles with signs for home business things like Creative Memories, Pure Romance or Avon.

JoseS2
(California)

Posts:11

07/01/2008 6:46 AM
Glen from ohio- how do i find the post you are talking about. Our guys name is not that. Does anyone include things like home business like Avon ect. with the restrictions? i think that is too much. Plus what if the advertising is on a car not a truck or if a truck has a tool box in it's bed not like a utility box just a small box. I thimk we should stick to advertising to rule all the other stuff out. It seems a little silly to not let a avon or scrapbook person park in our streets. I guess any way we try we can't get it perfect. Jose

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1556

07/01/2008 10:31 AM
Posted By CharlesH9 on 07/01/2008 5:37 AM Our streets were dedicated to the county. Does this still make them the HOA's? Some think you can't restrict county roads. Also what about the "commecial" vehicles with signs for home business things like Creative Memories, Pure Romance or Avon. Charles, If the streets were dedicated to the county then they are now county roads, meaning public not private roads. Some people do think you cannot restrict parking on public roadways, but that is not true. There is case law upholding the HOAs right to do so, even on public roadways. The reason being that everyone agreed to the restriction when purchasing their property. It all comes back to the fact that the CCRs are enforceable because we all agreed to them. Even if you did not receive a copy of the CCRs b/4 you purchased your property, just by virtue of signing on the dotted line you have "agreed" to all the provisions contained in them. This is the law (property law) that applies to restricted covenants.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1221

07/01/2008 11:29 AM
Jose you can put the user name in the search box on the topics page to find a specific poster's different postings; which I did for you, see below. As far as the Mary Kay, Avon etc. goes if the car is in the garage and out of sight it doesn't count. As far as the signage goes if it's parked in the driveway, most HOA's I've seen require the owner to cover the sign with a blank magnetic cover in a complementary color. http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/41599/Default.aspx http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/41288/Default.aspx http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/42826/Default.aspx http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/25790/Default.aspx http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/47240/Default.aspx

JoseS2
(California)

Posts:11

07/01/2008 11:30 AM
Mary-does that mean if one is parked on public streets and is a visitor of a homeowner or rents a room this would apply to them? Jose

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/01/2008 5:10 PM
Posted By JoseS2 on 07/01/2008 11:30 AM Mary-does that mean if one is parked on public streets and is a visitor of a homeowner or rents a room this would apply to them? Jose in general Jose, visitors did NOT sign a contract with the HOA to limit their rights, so parking rules on public streets don't typically apply. However, the HOA COULD try to enforce the limits on the homeowner, if the situation became excessive/abusive, etc.. For renters, the OWNER signed the contract, and they are responsible for the actions of their renters. So, you would deal with and fine the OWNER, and let them deal with their tenants.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1444

07/01/2008 5:53 PM
In our area, property owners are to ensure that their visitors and renters comply with the CC&Rs as well. So if a homeowner has a boyfriend or girlfriend, or even just a pal who comes and hangs out all day, but parks on the street more than 4 hours or overnight, we can (and have) still enforce against the homeowner since he must ensure that his lot is in compliance. It generally does not rise to the test unless or until the "visitors" are so frequent that it has become a clearly habitual issue. In which case, the owners are to ensure that those people they welcome into their home do not bring the property out of compliance. That would apply to owners' teen-age children as well! (we had a guy claim that since his son wasn't on the deed, he didn't have to comply with parking restrictions. He was wrong!) The only thing we CANNOT do is enforce against people who park on our streets who are neither visitors of members, or members themselves. We have a lake (a retention basin, really, but people still use it to "fish" in), and we get people from surrounding neighborhoods "drop by" and just park anywhere and then go to the lake and fish. We cannot make them not park there (it's a public street). We can, however, make them leave the lake, since it is for the use and enjoyment of our HOA residents ONLY. But if they decide to leave the lake, but just sit in their car all day, there's not much we can do about it. The closest thing we can do is call a policeman to enforce the Metro parking restriction that one cannot park within 10 feet of a driveway. So far we haven't had to actually do that, though.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1556

07/01/2008 6:39 PM
Posted By JoseS2 on 07/01/2008 11:30 AM Mary-does that mean if one is parked on public streets and is a visitor of a homeowner or rents a room this would apply to them? Jose Jose, If your CCRs state "members and their guests", then, yes, the rule would apply to visitors. However, others coming into the community are not subject to the rules. A renter must abide by the same rules as a member.

CharlesH9
(Michigan)

Posts:62

07/01/2008 8:08 PM
I personally don't care where people park as long as it is not in MY driveway. We have some families with multiple (like 4) dirvers so the driveway is tricky for them. Commercial vehicles for the most part don't bother me either. I do think it is a little tacky to have a van that reads "Pure Romance" parked in your driveway. What must the kids think??

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/02/2008 12:17 PM
Posted By CharlesH9 on 07/01/2008 8:08 PM I personally don't care where people park as long as it is not in MY driveway. We have some families with multiple (like 4) dirvers so the driveway is tricky for them. Commercial vehicles for the most part don't bother me either. I do think it is a little tacky to have a van that reads "Pure Romance" parked in your driveway. What must the kids think?? they probably think it's tacky too

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:679

07/02/2008 4:23 PM
Before openly stating that an HOA can restrict parking on a public street, it might be wise to indicate where this is the case. What one state allows another bans. Much legal advice is only good for the locality from which it came. Just because an HOA in AZ can restrict parking on public streets inside its boundaries doesn't mean that will work in another state. You should check what is permissible in your locality. Keep in mind that what the HOA can (and can't) do can be limited by all of the following: 1) State government 2) County government 3) City government

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1556

07/02/2008 7:04 PM
Kirk, I have stated previously there is case law in other states to uphold an assn's right to restrict parking on public streets. There is no case law in AZ; however HOA attorneys look at case law in other states when advising board members. Judges will also look at case law in other states.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1444

07/03/2008 9:10 AM
Posted By CharlesH9 on 07/01/2008 8:08 PM I personally don't care where people park as long as it is not in MY driveway. We have some families with multiple (like 4) dirvers so the driveway is tricky for them. Commercial vehicles for the most part don't bother me either. I do think it is a little tacky to have a van that reads "Pure Romance" parked in your driveway. What must the kids think?? This is also why CC&Rs don't generally have clauses that state something akin to, "is restricted. . . unless you get your neighbors to say they don't mind." The problem is generally not with a singular commercial vehicle, it's with the idea that if you can allow ONE commercial vehicle, then you can allow all others. In other words, a commercial van with a discreet branding on its side is not necessarily an "eyesore." But if you then have 5 or 10 or more in the same street, and of all varying sizes and sorts, including one that is, say, lime green with huge purple lettering that states something like "Love Shack Commodities," and another that's pink and orange that is promoting liposuction, regardless of the text or image (shudder), then how can you allow the discreet one and not the 4 to 9 others that are tacky and an eyesore, all taken together? Therefore, the restriction would most likely simply state, "no commercial vehicles." I, personally, don't have a problem with boats. In fact, we own a pontoon with other family members. We can't keep in here because boats aren't allowed on our lots unless stored in the garage (or basement, which I never really understood since we have no walkouts here!). But if my neighbor has a slick little speed or ski boat, why should he have to keep it offsite? I don't mind looking at it, except when I'm feeling particularly envious. But for every one or two decent or not-so-bad boat, trailer, camper, commercial vehicle, then you have a slew of others that are not so pleasant on the eye. It's what I call the "shotgun" approach to enforcement, as opposed to the targeted, single-bullet approach.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/03/2008 9:35 AM
Posted By MicheleD on 07/03/2008 9:10 AM It's what I call the "shotgun" approach to enforcement, as opposed to the targeted, single-bullet approach. In general, legislative bodies use the shotgun approach because it is cheaper, faster and easier, (but messier) than writing a well thought out rule, describing specific behavior to be targeted, and implementing it. Granted, it leads to more problems usually, but far too often, those issues are left to the NEXT generation of rule writers to deal with.

JoseS2
(California)

Posts:11

07/03/2008 11:01 AM
I did find a couple of postings from someone that has to be in our tract of homes. I did learn some things on the postings that I have not heard before so that I think there may be a communication problem. If Bob is out there I would encourage you to come to talk to the board before this gets any worse. Some board members are really willing to listen. I am sure if you read my post you will realize who I am, the only other guy. Bob, you are correct in California a pickup truck is a commerical vehicle. I did contact my city and was told that I need to contact the Highway Patrol to get a clear answer. this is what I learned for all you California people. A pickup is designed to carry a load therefore is considered a commercial vehicle as are many SUV's that can have a "bed". With that being said I also found out that if you do not want your truck to be commercial anymore you can put a shell cover on it and go to the DMV and they will re-register it and save you a few bucks in the process, but until that is done they are according to the law, commercial. I wonder if there have been other challenges in CID's that have had the commercial/pickup problem and if so how was it settled. It looks like the rules need to say something like no vehicles that have signage, or tool boxes,or gas tanks in the bed, ect. I just hope in the process of our new rules we do not make anyone feel like they are being picked on, like some do feel in our tract with the changes. I think the key is we fork out the money to pay the managements attorney and not attempt this ourselves.

JoseS2
(California)

Posts:11

07/03/2008 11:06 AM
I forgot this one. what if it is a regular pickup truck and it has a small company logo on the back window that says "Bills plumbing Service" and no other indication that it is used for business except the small sticker.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1556

07/03/2008 11:14 AM
Posted By JoseS2 on 07/03/2008 11:06 AM I forgot this one. what if it is a regular pickup truck and it has a small company logo on the back window that says "Bills plumbing Service" and no other indication that it is used for business except the small sticker. Jose, Since CA has the ridiculous law that all p/u's are commercial vehicles, IMO, to be fair, the assn needs to determine which p/u's are "true" commercial vehicles. Those would be the ones that should be subject to your CCR restriction. A p/u with a co. logo, as you state above, is definitely a commercial vehicle and would be subject to the CCR restriction.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1556

07/03/2008 11:18 AM
Posted By BrianB on 07/03/2008 9:35 AM Posted By MicheleD on 07/03/2008 9:10 AM It's what I call the "shotgun" approach to enforcement, as opposed to the targeted, single-bullet approach. In general, legislative bodies use the shotgun approach because it is cheaper, faster and easier, (but messier) than writing a well thought out rule, describing specific behavior to be targeted, and implementing it. Granted, it leads to more problems usually, but far too often, those issues are left to the NEXT generation of rule writers to deal with. Michele & Brian, The reason laws are written this way is because it's so much easier to apply a law to everyone than to determine if it's applicable on a case-by-case basis. With regard to your last remark, Brian, it's amazing how many bill get through the legislature each year with the understanding they will be amended in the next session. The mindset is this: Let's just get this through, we can fine tune it next session. In many instances, "next session" never comes!

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1444

07/03/2008 12:15 PM
Mary, I agree. I was just making an observation about it (shotgun approach) and hadn't meant to editorialize as to whether it is the right or wrong way to go. Sometimes simpler is just better. Sometimes not. Another of my favorite two-word replies to almost any question in the universe: It depends. Jose, in answer to your question re: regular or small pickup truck with the small, discreet logo, as long as the logo is showing, our board considers it "commercial." (we don't have the rule in KY that pickups are considered "commercial.") We have a guy right now who is an electrician. He drives a white pickup truck with the two words XXX Electric on the side of the doors, very small. But when he parks in his driveway, he covers the logo with a blank white magnetic strip. Instant non-commercial.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/03/2008 1:38 PM
Jose, in california, pick ups are commercial vehicles by the DMV, regardless of any advertising, use, etc. just the way it was in 1942, and it has never changed. so your example is a commercial vehicle. and michele, i like the creative answer your example shows: those magnetic signs are useful for compliance all over! I used to have one, JUST so i could place it on the door and drive into a worksite: they only allowed "commercial vehicles" to enter the property, not private vehicles. one magnetic sticker later, and I was driving on the site to my destination. AS you show, the reverse holds true too.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:679

07/04/2008 1:00 PM
It occurs to me reading hte rule, that it needs some work anyway. Consider this: COMMERCIAL VEHICLE RESTRICTIONS No commercial vehicle which is owned by a resident shall be parked in the residents driveway or on the street. Such resident-owned commercial vehicles must be parked behind the fence or in the garage of the resident. Case 1 Any commercial vehicle which is non-resident owned and is present in the project for purposes of delivery of goods or services shall not park in the project for any more than a nine hour period and under no circunstances be parked in the project overnight. Case 2 And any commercial vehicle that is non-resident owned and present in the project because the owner allows an employee to drive home is free and clear to park where they please for as long as they please. Oops, you missed case 3 entirely with the rule as written. I would suggest you re-write the rule. You could do the same thing with far fewer words and no ambiguity such as this: Commercial vehicles shall be parked behind a fence or in a garage if parked overnight. Commercial vehicles present for delivery or in support of ongoing work shall only be left while workers are actively engaging in the project. I am sure this can be further tweaked. But look to define what is allowed instead of what isn't allowed. Also, I would point out that you could cost your residents a lot of money should they need extensive work. Many tradesmen will spend more then 9 hours a day at a job site. (Hopefully) the point is to make sure they remove the vehicle from the project when they leave the site not to limit them to a nine hour day. You may also want to define what constitutes a commercial vehicle in your rules. There is a lot of ambiguity. The easiest method is to specify signage, and the presence of racks or the like.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

07/04/2008 2:49 PM
i love the idea of spending time crafting rules for what you want to allow, rather than trying to craft a rule for every possible thing you don't want to allow. perhaps the ultimate CC&R contains a nice blend of both types of rules.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1556

07/05/2008 9:03 AM
Brian, Depends upon whether there are more things you don't want or more things you do want! LOL Reminds me of a story from my childhood -- the days when everyone had their wash hanging on the line every Monday morning. One neighbor was bragging how clean her daughter was by the number of panties she had to hang out each Monday. Another neighbor explained, "Yeah, she's awfully clean, or awfully dirty!"

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