To Bee, or not to Bee:

Okay, fun one today for me.

Homeowner tells me that a hive of bees has settled into the concrete block wall at the back of his property. Not ON the wall, but inside the wall: inside the holes of the concrete block. Since this wall separates his property from a common area, it is a jointly "owned" wall between him and the HOA.

The question was: "Who is responsible for the removal of the bees?"

In our CC&R's, it states that any damage to the wall is the responsibility of the owner who damages it. If the damage is no one's fault, then both owners split the cost. However, the bees aren't damaging anything (and not likely they will.. .hard for a bee to damage concrete block). THe CC&R's also state that the owners are responsible for maintaining a yard "free of noxious weeds and insects". There is no such rule binding the HOA for keeping bugs out, since we are all Single family homes, with no common HOA buildings, etc..

WHat would you do? Pay for the removal? REfuse to pay? Split the cost?

My answer: Since this homeowner is one of our "best" (regular payer, never late), we rewarded him by simply saying "get it done, and we will reimburse you." However, had he been one of our bad owners, i might have had a different attitude.

Anyone else had something like this?

BrianB - If the wall is common area, jointly owned by HOA and the owner, the responsibility for removing the bees, and maintenance to the wall, is both the HOA and the owner. While the bees may not cause any damage to the wall, they may cause damage to the residents. The bees are seeking shelter on common property. Therefore, it's in the best interests of the HOA to reward everyone equally and deal with the matter by splitting the cost and not set a precedent of favoritism.

This bee issue is just one concern that commonly owned walls can present. Who's responsibility will it be if this commonly owned retaining wall needs more extensive maintenance, or causes damage from collapsing? I know all too well what our attorney's legal interpretation is of a commonly owned retaining wall collapsing. Resonsibility depends upon where the fault actually occurred. Just like a 3 cars that are rear ended.

As for your last paragraph, are you saying you would deal with an HOA common property maintenance item differently for different owners? This hints at favoritism.

In this case, I would have advised the owner that the HOA will split the cost for the removal of the bees however the HOA will contract for the restoration of the commonly owned wall. What's intersting about this is that the owner will be paying twice. Once for half of his/her cost, a second time in his/her HOA monthly maintenance contribution.

GeraldT1

I always go to 'worst case scenario', like what if the bee hive got out of control, someone was allergic, walked by and got attacked. Then, more liability.

Favoritism exists, HOA's don't exist in a vacuum. I am against favoritism and special treatment, but I likely would have done the same thing.

If it was a really big expense, more review might have been needed. But in the time it would take to figure out who should pay what, how, etc. the problem was buzzing and getting bigger!

Well Brian - you epitomize all that is said about power hungry amateur HOA board members. I pity your members who are not your favorites. Harold

BradP - You touched upon something which is the bigger message this bee issue has evidenced; rewarding owners. I don't support the concept that owners should be rewarded, or given special treatement for doing what they are supposed to do, i.e. paying maintenance on time, adhering to the rules and regs. I also don't think acceptibility of a small expenditure justifies anything. Owners get wind of everything. All they'll remember is that the HOA picked up the tab. Some will use it to claim discrimination when their turn comes. I can't blame Harold for his comments given Brian's "unabashed" remark, I find the comment to be unseasoned but am reasurred given his courage to post his feelings in this format. We all learn our lessons. My replies to Brian and you are to help you think of the flipside. GeraldT1

Brian, you seem to be getting a little defensive.

Technically, I would think that if it was a common wall, the association should split the cost with the homeowner. Depending on the cost of a can of insect killer, I am guessing about $2 each. I don't think anyone legimately is concerned about the cost.

These are the stupid little things that members remember...if there are enough bees to be of concern to the homeowner that they brought it to your attention, then they feel it's a problem. And probably told others.

If the wall abuts a common area that is used, and it's a big hive...and you know it's there...then it is a liability issue. We had a very similar issue in our community gazebo. Bees are everywhere, but if you sit or lean on the wall (I have no idea what size it is...) you are likely to be stung. I am allergic to bees- so for me it is a serious danger. I guess you could always put up a sign that say 'Danger: Bees' ;-)

Gerald, you raise interesting points. I will try to address each in turn.

You write "Don't think of rectifying the bee situation as a reward for those that "don't want to be part of the association". Think of it as rewarding all those that are already part of it."

I think that's exactly what i am doing: rewarding those members who are part of our association. In this case, the member is a dues paying owner with a problem. I solved his problem. If he had not been a dues paying member, then he loses rights under our CC&R's, one right being the right to vote, the other being the loss of any facilities or services provided by the HOA.

You write "I agree that it is easier to lend a sympathetic ear to those members that pay on time, or contribute to the association by volunteering. However, owners should not be rewarded for doing what they are supposed to do, i.e. paying maintenance on time, etc."

an aside, but this debate is constantly raging in my own company every year at compensation time: do you reward those who do their jobs competently everyday, or is that what the paycheck is all about.

I have indeed heard of carpenter bees, and millipedes. Are you saying that if a carpenter bee comes onto a homeowners property, he should call his HOA and demand we eradicate it? THat since it flew over, or may be nesting on common (or jointly owned) property, we must destroy it? It may be feeding on our cottonwood, or nesting on a gazebo and feeding on his deck: which is the ownership?

If your claim is that the bees are a threat, please define the threat: how are bees threatening? I have lived around bees all my life, and only been stung once (and that was absolutely my fault). And if it is indeed our responsibility to eradicate psychological threats, then that opens a huge can of worms (no insect pun intended) as well. after all, what if an owner THINKS that a storm could knock down a tree on common area, and shatter his peaceful home: Must we remove the tree, because of that perceived threat? What about a light pole that could, in a high wind, be picked up and blown into a living room. What if someone fears that could occur? Even if the light pole is 200 feet away? Must we kow tow to everyone's perceived threats and fears? If we begin to deal with perceived threats, how can we draw the line? How do you quantify which perceived threats are worthwhile, and which are koo koo? What if they are terrified of ants, or beetles, or mice? Must we radiate our common areas, and destroy all life, so no one feels threatened?

I realize i am rambling and extending the arguement: however, if I am asked to put to death a perfectly natural, relatively harmless colony of bees because someone feels threatened, I would like to know where the HOA's limits to threat reduction are. If the HOA owns the responsibility to reduce that risk, then we should own the responsibility to reduce all risks greater than that, correct?

BrianB,

The wall is commonly owned. You solved his problem which so happens to be the entire HOA's problem. Luckily for your HOA members, this owner was in good favor. Otherwise given your logic and statements, it doesn't seem the problem would be rectified.

Let's say it was something else, something more serious, like a real threat as opposed to the bogus ones you've concocted in your second to last paragraph!! LOL. Let's say one of your more "irresponsible owners" reported a tree that was going to fall and cause harm to common property. Do you ignore the report, or do you respond (as you are supposed to when governing an HOA) by weighing the situation and acting in a manner so as to protect the members of the HOA? You could take a few seconds to gracefully remind the "irresponsible owner" that a well run association is a two way street, where owners contribute in their maintenance that allows the HOA to act on everyone's behalf, like in the instance of a tree about to fall.

My thought is that the dialogue must be fostered even with owners that are not "favored" for whatever reason. Late fees or not, it's basic HR that can kill two birds, or bees, with one stone.

There is no arguing with your comparisons because they are at one end of the extreme and are not what I am saying at all. Do you realize you put words in people's mouths? There is a big difference between a bee coming onto a property and responding to an owner's report of bees in a commonly owned wall.

You deal with each issue as it arises..

I am neither your opponent, nor your ally. Rather a fellow like you who is living in an HOA, and seeking perspective that can benefit others.

GeraldT1

BrianB,

I believe you are innacurately reading your covenants. But let's say your reading is correct. Following your logic thread, if non paying owners are rightfully denied access to common areas...then paying owners are rightfully granted access, correct? Are you going to sacrifice the rights of paying owners because of one bad egg?

However, keep in mind you are talking about a wall that is jointly owned by the HOA and the Owner. You are not talking about a pool or a service where access can be denied.

Maintenance of the common property is a service my association must share or provide even to those who do not pay their dues. Maintenance of jointly owned property that is used or accessible by all members is my association's responsibility to provide even to those who do not pay their dues.

Unfortunately, bees and humans cannot always live in harmony, it may be a hard concept for some to accept. They are burrowing in a place they should not, they are forming a colony in a jointly owned wall, it's that simple. Perhaps you can seek a more holistic approach as opposed to capital punishment. There are bee collectors.

While you debate your philosophy of when to act, there are other members of this site that seek answers on how to act. They do so in the best interests of their associations to protect their communities at large. I believe you could learn something from them on how to be, as I have learned something from you on how not to be.

GeraldT1

SwanB,

Bees are just one example. The responsibilities of an HOA vary. Standing water on common areas is an HOA concern. That mosquitos could propogate is secondary to the standing water that needs to be addressed.

Let's say there was standing water on a roadway (bad drainage/pitch of road). This would be of concern to the HOA to remedy. Because standing water on roadways is one of the biggest contributing factors to roadway failure, as per my association's Transition Engineering Firm.

On the flipside, it is unrealistic to expect the HOA address, one bee, or paranoid complaints.

Interesting enough, the community I lived in previously had one or two woodpeckers that did devasting damage to the wood trim of numerous units. Guess why it was gouging the wood? To get at the carpenter bees that had burrowed on the other side!!

Not addressing one problem can often lead to another.

GeraldT1

GeraldT1

with mosquitos, there may be county or state health laws that you can copy/follow. If your HOA does what the county requires, you should be in compliance. Anything extra is up to the HOA.