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JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:317

06/21/2008 9:38 AM
A shadowy mystic living in an HOA in suburban Istanbul? Nah. It’s another name for the grass carp, and I am seeking advice. We have two ponds, about 4 acres total, which over the past three seasons have experienced water lily creep. The smaller one is now covered about 60% in the summer (they sink to the bottom in cold weather), and the larger one with our fountain now about 5%. Chemical control by a pro is prohibitively expensive, and self control too complicated and possibly dangerous. Dredging, just once, would likewise exhaust much of our reserves. Our Board Prez has been told that stocking them with white amurs, especially the triploid (non-breeding) variety, which voraciously feed on various pond grasses, including water lilies, would be a less expensive and a very “green” partial solution to our problems. Here in PA, we’d need a $20 permit and would have to purchase them from an authorized breeder within the Commonwealth (of which there are a number). Does anyone have, or know of, experience with this possibility, or for that matter, any other potential fixes? Thanks.

GloriaM
(North Carolina)

Posts:772

06/21/2008 10:38 AM
John: I would contact and consult with a Pond Management Company for their feedback. We manage many ponds in our communities, some are taken care of by a pond company, while others; the board and committees take care of. They purchased a fountain to keep the water flowing, stocked it with bottom feeders and algae eaters. But when we get stuck in unknown territory, we consult with a professional to get the best way to go.

Dr. Gloria J. Martinez, CFO Official HOATalk.com Sponsor Author of "A Guide to Community Living" Faith Management Services, LLC (North Carolina) (704) 799-3791 www.FaithManagementServices.com *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:1812

06/21/2008 11:06 AM
Is this the one that grows to about 6 feet long?

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:317

06/21/2008 12:00 PM
Susan, The fish or the water lily? The fish can get as large as 25 lbs. Doubt that would be shark size. The weeds group together; well over 6 feet!

CaroleJ
(Georgia)

Posts:32

06/21/2008 3:13 PM
David, the green solution is obviously the way to go, even though you state that it is only a partial fix. Has the Board Pres. been given any advice on how to fix the part that isn't solved? Is this a problem that is occurs only in PA (or suburban Istanbul)? :-)

CaroleJ
(Georgia)

Posts:32

06/21/2008 3:14 PM
Ooops. Sorry, should have said John, not David, above.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:317

06/22/2008 10:33 AM
Carole, Partial because the fish would not kill them off. But alas, it appears this idea is frought with naught. I found a PA site that stated they - the carp, not the writers - were only good for submerged graases, not floaters. Soooooooo...back to the old drawing board. Any other ideas would be appreciated.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:1812

06/22/2008 2:09 PM
Drain the ponds (called a draw-back) or pull out the offenders (takes 3 years to get rid of a weed like that - you must pull out the root.) Whatever you do, don't cut them. That's like pruning them, and they love it and will encourage double the growth.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:917

06/22/2008 8:01 PM
What I found in looking around is that the carp are effective at eliminating this and nearly every other kind of water grass. The thing is that they will eat everything below the surface of the water which will kill the whole plant eventually. So what is the drawback? The fish consumes up to twice its weight a day and puts out a high amount of feces. Thus the water clouds up and you have an algae bloom. This in turn kills the fish which feeds another bloom. And then you have a huge mess to clean up. Also, as the plants die off, you still have to clean up the part left at the surface. I would look into herbicide methods. From what I read, you can apply either bush-b-gone or roundup to the part that is on the surface. (You should paint it on from say a canoe.) It may take a couple of treatments to kill off the plant, then you can take up the dead plants. You can also pull the stuff up though it will take a number of times before it doesn't come right back since you would be leaving the part in the water behind.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:317

06/23/2008 11:47 AM
I phoned two carp suppliers and they both said the best their products (carp) would do was munch on brand new growth on the edges, not stuff already entrenched. I've heard of the "painting" of herbicides, then pulling the victims out post mortem, but cannot find a contractor who performs such duties. I've Googled every combination I can think of, with no luck. Lord knows, none of our HOs will volunteer.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:1812

06/23/2008 4:32 PM
Sorry - lowering the pond's water level is called a draw-down.

KarenS11
(Florida)

Posts:132

06/23/2008 6:26 PM
We have a couple hundred grass carp in our 22 acre lake. The have really done the job and people swim in it,too. Might call your state department of envoronmental protection- they came and performed a lake inspection and were quite helpful. Ours have only grown to about ten feet long. We lasso them and they pull us around the lake in inner tubes...LOL Seriously, though, our big ones are about 18" long.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1575

06/23/2008 10:51 PM
I was not aware that water lilies are considered "weeds." I've been growing them for many years now and would cringe at the idea of destroying them or killing them! And, while we have carp, we don't have any white amurs. Mostly ornamental koi. They do a pretty good munching job on ours, but rarely do they eat enough to kill it.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2511

06/24/2008 11:13 AM
Michelle, This pertains to Karens post. I don't know what the Pennsylvania ponds in Johns back yard are composed of These lakes are retention ponds that collect the run off. They are very strictly controlled by the Water Management District in whatever area this might be. South Florida W.M.D. was mine and they would go bonkers with any alteration to the pond. They can be of some help when it comes to the health of the ponds. The shorelines, usually 10 foot up from the water level is called "Littorals" and that is controlled , managed environment for wildlife so that has got to be left alone or basically managed and not removed. Now, seeing that I am a Master Gardener, I am very support of natural management or "going green" but there are new chemicals that will kill the weeds without any enviromental impact. Otherwise, the only solution is to have someone in a wet suit, pulling them by hand if the debth is okay.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:917

06/24/2008 8:31 PM
I was not aware that water lilies are considered "weeds." What constitutes a weed can vary based on where you are and the context. For instance, I love seeing wildflowers on the roadways. But many would consider them weeds in the yard. By the same token, Bermuda grass is the most popular in this area. But the stuff is extremely invasive and could just as easily be considered a weed when you try to keep it from your flower beds.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:1812

06/25/2008 5:01 AM
Since these "ponds" are not for swimming, paddleboating or fishing, then let mature take its course. This invasive plant will go thru a cycle where it has outgrown itself, and just die back, in effect, starving itslef off. May take a while. Then it will go thru the cycle again.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:317

06/25/2008 8:58 AM
True, this is essentially a matter of aesthetics, but the ponds, fountain and common areas set our operation apart from our neighboring subdivisions. In this market, a very important asset. First impressions count, and an easy first impression is that right now they look uncared for, as opposed to the winter months, when they look peachy. I'll look into the enviro. protection suggestion. Thanks.

JohnK3
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:317

06/26/2008 10:29 AM
In cultural news, I note that the other night, Christie's auctioned off a nice size Monet titled "Water Lily Pond" for about $80M, almost double that of the previous high for a Monet sold at auction. So how about this? If anybody queries as to why Pond #2 looks as it does, I relate the above and say the HOA maintains it as an homage to the Father of Impressionism. Well, maybe not the Father; but they did nick the name from his "Impression, Soleil Levant" which, true story, I saw at Marmouton in October, 1985, ten days before it was stolen in a brazen daylight robbery, and... I'll shut up now. Day before a Getaway Weekend so my mind is wandering...

VictorW
(Kansas)

Posts:14

08/02/2008 3:11 PM
Sorry for the late reply but it is so hot in KS our computers are shutting down. Our HOA has a 80 acre sandpit. It has visabilty of about ten feet and averages 30 feet deep. Unfprtunately, this is the environment filamentous algae likes (the gooey green stuff). Experts (fish salesmen) told us to buy 1,000 amurs to clean up the algae. The amurs cleaned every green plant out of the water, even stripping leaves off off tree branches that were in he water. They didn't touch the filamentous moss. Now the bottom of the lake looks like a sand desert with no living plants and the edges have three foot thick layer of moss. Now that there are no plants to use up the goose and duck waste after their winter lay-over, we get more filamentous moss plus some blue-green algae in the summer time which shuts down water activities due to its toxicity. I wouldn't suggest amurs. Trap some muskrats and let them go. We planted lilies and lotus but the rats ate them all. Check your county extension agency for herbicides to control pond plants. Or advertise free water lilies in the paper if they dig them up. Our city crews here in KS drag a cable between two tractors across the city ponds severing plants. Then when they drift to the edge they rake them up. They same thing could be done with motor boats if the water is deep enough.

GeorgerwilliamsW
(Indiana)

Posts:568

08/03/2008 6:48 AM
Posted By VictorW on 08/02/2008 3:11 PM I wouldn't suggest amurs. Trap some muskrats and let them go. We planted lilies and lotus but the rats ate them all. Check your county extension agency for herbicides to control pond plants. Or advertise free water lilies in the paper if they dig them up. Our city crews here in KS drag a cable between two tractors across the city ponds severing plants. Then when they drift to the edge they rake them up. They same thing could be done with motor boats if the water is deep enough. Hey, Victor, are you saying you want muskrats? Come on over, I will give you as many as you can transport--even pay for the trapping. Or, are you saying that you want to get rid of them?? We have four detention ponds and two streams that have to be managed. The ponds have to be treated with algicide several times a year. Muskrats do serious damage to pond banks, so we have to trap and kill them. But the youngins keep finding the way back via the streams.

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