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ScottM4
(Kansas)

Posts:3

06/17/2008 3:56 PM
Do minutes in a meeting at add to covenants? Is the covenents that are registered the only law that stands? board makes rules at a meeting they are voted on and approved. The only record of this is the meeting notes. Can these rules stand?

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1453

06/17/2008 5:10 PM
Posted By ScottM4 on 06/17/2008 3:56 PM Do minutes in a meeting at add to covenants? Is the covenents that are registered the only law that stands? board makes rules at a meeting they are voted on and approved. The only record of this is the meeting notes. Can these rules stand? Scott, Do your CCRs give the board the authority to adopt rules even without the vote of the members? If so, those rules hold as much weight as the CCRs which are a recorded document. All board-adopted rules should be kept in a separate binder and copies distributed to all members.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1581

06/17/2008 5:57 PM
we would need more info to fully answer Scott... Mary is correct, if everything is kosher, and all things are done properly, then yes, the board can make rules and add them to the covenants. However, in my experience, it is likely that your HOA board is NOT doing the process correctly, and thus, minutes taken at a meeting and forced upon the owners as "gospel" wouldn't likely hold water in a lawsuit.

ScottM4
(Kansas)

Posts:3

06/17/2008 7:44 PM
sorry I wasnt clear. The HOA has meetings and we vote on issues such as pool rules. The only place this is recorded is in the meeting minutes. Should we include the rules in the covenents or are meetining minutes binding?

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1581

06/17/2008 7:58 PM
again, IF the meetings are proper (per your bylaws) and the voting is proper, then the rules are created as you vote. Recording in minutes is fine, however, you really need to get them into a record that ALL homeowners and POTENTIAL homeowners can see. If they are not part of the recorded covenants, and your HOA does not supply all the rules to a potential buyer, your HOA is asking for a lawsuit later in life, when someone buys a home and then finds out that trucks, beer, dogs over 100 pounds, kids, basketball goals, russian olives, etc. are banned from the HOA by the rules they never saw published only in the minutes they never got.

ScottM4
(Kansas)

Posts:3

06/17/2008 8:13 PM
Thank you brian. What if there are no written by laws? We are very small HOA with 14 members, I am now the president with no information to use.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1581

06/17/2008 9:41 PM
there should be by laws, those are the rules on how you do business.. elect officers, conduct meetings, duties, hold elections, etc. if you don't have them, you need to write them. if you don't have by laws, what do you have? Covenants? Are they recorded? Are you incorporated in the state?

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:600

06/17/2008 10:36 PM
The recording requirements for rules passed by the board can vary from state to state. I doubt you are required to file all rules with the county. But since I am not an attorney (and certainly not one in your state), I can't tell you what is and isn't required to be recorded at the county. I would think that you would actually have a printed version of the rules. That version should have a place on it for the secretary to affirm that these rules were passed in accordance with the by-laws. The minutes should reflect that the rule set was passed. Now you have two documents. One is the rule(s), the other is the minutes. If someone asks to view the minutes, you show them. If they ask to see the rules, they get a copy of the paper that was signed as having been passed.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1453

06/19/2008 10:58 AM
Posted By ScottM4 on 06/17/2008 7:44 PM sorry I wasnt clear. The HOA has meetings and we vote on issues such as pool rules. The only place this is recorded is in the meeting minutes. Should we include the rules in the covenents or are meetining minutes binding? Scott, I doubt you can include the rules in the covenants. Traditionally the covenants can only be amended by the members. However, in most assn docs, the board has the authority to enact additional rules w/o a vote of the members. These board-adopted rules have the same weight as the covenants. These rules should be maintained by the Board sec. in a separate binder indicating the date adopted. Copies should be provided to all the members of the assn. and also made a part of the pkg. of info provided to new property owners.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1581

06/19/2008 11:28 AM
It sounds like (i could be wrong) that this is a small HOA struggling to do things the best they know how. If they have no "documents", i suspect they are lost somewhere in antiquity or in previously dissolved boards. SOunds like meetings are with all the owners (who show up), and the rules are voted on by everyone. that kinda validates it as a meeting of the owners, but I wonder if anything being done is truly kosher and valid: without having Covenants or By-laws, how can it be? How can you follow the rules if you don't have them written down? THe more info you can give us here, the more we can help, if you want it, about how your HOA should be, what you should look for, how things might need to be done.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:109

06/19/2008 11:47 AM
Our cc&rs allow the board to create rules and regs as long as they don't conflict w/the docs or laws of a higher authority. In other words we made a rule- no ball playing in the park. We posted a sign. Our docs are silent about whether the board has to notify the membership after a rule adoption. We print an article in the quarterly newsletter.

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:809

06/19/2008 12:20 PM
Posted By TonyM3 on 06/19/2008 11:47 AM Our cc&rs allow the board to create rules and regs as long as they don't conflict w/the docs or laws of a higher authority. In other words we made a rule- no ball playing in the park. We posted a sign. Our docs are silent about whether the board has to notify the membership after a rule adoption. We print an article in the quarterly newsletter. TonyM3, Regardless of your covenants being “silent” or not. I wouldn’t think the BOD could, legally enforce that particular rule on the community. You can’t expect residence to abide by rules you create “IF” you DON’T notify them of the rule first! I don’t think a notification once a quarter would be considered sufficient either. That would be were you need to some further advice. Chuck W

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:109

06/19/2008 2:12 PM
ahhh, but yes we can and we do. We have quarterly meetings and quarterly newsletters. If someone breaks a rule they then get notified by mail with a warning. Concerned h/os can always come to the meetings or check the minutes, we have a website too. MoF hos appreciate that we don't waste their money on what amounts to unnecessary mailings. Appreciate the advice, Charles, even though I wasn't seeking any.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1581

06/19/2008 2:23 PM
Tony, in your situation, how does a prospective homeowner/buyer (or new owner) get a copy of all the rules? Do you have a livng document you give to folks before they sign a deal? (Ie, when i go to purchase a home, i get a copy of the covenants and by-laws, and make my decision. How do i know if i agree with the added rules the board has made over the years?)

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:109

06/19/2008 2:44 PM
We don't have alot of rules over and above the cc&rs. To be honest the ball playing rule is the only one I can think of off hand cause the President got his window broken a few years ago. Other than that, most changes have been things like relaxing the landscape guidelines, extending the paint palette and a number of changes to the by-laws like # of directors, terms, quorum amount, frequency of meetings, etc. There's plenty of public info on our website if a prosective buyer wanted to perform due diligence.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:600

06/19/2008 6:53 PM
... To be honest the ball playing rule is the only one I can think of off hand cause the President got his window broken a few years ago. ... I will first admit I don't know all the background, but what you said here sounds very troublesome to me. A rule shouldn't be enacted because one person had a one time bad experience. And certainly not the president. That is the kind of thing that many like to point to when they attack the very existence of HOAs. I would offer this (admittedly unsolicited) advice, you might put together a list of the rules to send along with the governing documents to new home owners. You might also consider at least some sort of email notification for new rules.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:109

06/19/2008 7:43 PM
A little background then- the park is a small grassy corner lot in the sub-division the developer set aside with swings, a slide, gazebo, a couple of BBQs and picnic tables. It's a basically surrounded by one and two story homes with big windows (as is typical in this part of az). At the time the pres home was a two story that backed up to the park. His upper floor window was broken with a batted hard ball from the park. It could have been anyone's window. Hence the rule which was enacted when I wasn't a board member. It made sense then and it makes sense now even though someone else now owns that home. We have other safer areas where ball can be played. So no reason to make a mountain out of a mohill. Presently what we're doin' works so we see no real need to fix what ain't broke. I suppose eventually some gung-ho, full of energy volunteer with time to spare will come along and want to collect all this data and distribute it. More power to 'em.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1453

06/20/2008 10:14 AM
Posted By TonyM3 on 06/19/2008 2:12 PM ahhh, but yes we can and we do. We have quarterly meetings and quarterly newsletters. If someone breaks a rule they then get notified by mail with a warning. Concerned h/os can always come to the meetings or check the minutes, we have a website too. MoF hos appreciate that we don't waste their money on what amounts to unnecessary mailings. Appreciate the advice, Charles, even though I wasn't seeking any. Tony, Pardon me, but I think you have a rather cavalier attitude in thinking: "MoF hos appreciate that we don't waste their money on what amounts to unnecessary mailings." Do they also appreciate getting a violation notice for a violation they didn't know existed? The reason they didn't know it didn't exist is because the board didn't want to waste money to inform the members of the new rule??? Not attending meetings or even visiting the website doesn't mean the h/o isn't concerned. Maybe it only means they don't have the time! I don't think it's unreasonable for a member to expect the board to inform them when a new rule is adopted by the board.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:109

06/20/2008 10:49 AM
90% of the members use the ignorance excuse when they violate a ccr. They get the obligatory notice when necessary. Hey, we didn't know that you didn't know. Any member is invited to start or join the stamp out ignorance committee. What the members like most of all though is reasonable dues. The board does what it can to keep it that way.

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