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JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
This topic got lost in another thread, so let me readdress it with a general question:

Should an HOA Board ever deviate from strict rules, and if so, how far?

Hypothetical #1.

Our CCRs have a pretty strict rule against signs on Common Property. Under our CCRs, no changes are permitted w/o a majority of HOs approving same. We also have, in our ByLaws, under Board Powers and Duties: β€œβ€¦(and) may do such other things and acts not inconsistent with the Act, Declarations or these ByLaws which the Executive Board may be authorized to do by a resolution of the Association.”

Assume some HOs want to have a yard/garage sale and want to post a sign on Common Property to advertise it/direct shoppers to the action.

Is it reasonable for the Board to waive the sign prohibition without amending the CCRs? Our Board took our operations self-managed this year. We’re still iffy about exactly what we can or cannot do by ourselves, except as to the specific powers granted. This presents a good example, as in, Do What Makes Sense for the enjoyment of Membership, or Cross Every β€œT” before acting?
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
IMO, no, the board cannot waive the sign rule. that would be "inconsistent" with the intents of the authors of the covenants.

however, a board could waive the sign rules on a case by case basis, with petition, etc., to allow a temporary sign be placed for no more than X hours, in Y location, no larger than Z, etc.. this would not be a permanent change like a complete waiver of the rule, just a temporary one.

JohnM3 (Florida)
Posts: 288
Posted:
You can preety much do as you please. Start acting like what you are a minutaure City Govt. But don't forget to check your state laws. Be very carefull when you change things thou as you can be accused of selective code enforcement.

Good Luck let us know how you make out as we are contemplateing doing the same thing we are a hoa with 305 members.
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
JohnK3... one way that your owners can get around the rule is to place their signs on city property, not HOA common area. I used to remove all the signs on our property, but i wouldn't touch a sign placed on the sidewalk.

Now, the city may have something to say, but that's a different kettle of fish.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Brian -
If the sidewalk is within the HOA boundaries, then the rule still applies. I've had real estate agents try to tell me that I can't touch their "Open House" signs if they were on the sidewalks because it is up to the city to enforce the no-signs law there. However the City Attorney informed me (and those agents) that while the city does have the authority to enforce city laws there, it is NOT an exclusive authority and does not prevent the HOA from also enforcing their own rules within their boundaries. So the HOA can (and should) follow the same procedures for violations on the sidewalks as it would for violations in the common areas.

BTW: the City Attorney also informed me that the sidewalks are actually on HOA property, but the city has an easement to install and maintain those sidewalks.
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
John it would be helpful if you would post the entire sections of your CC&R's instead of just summarizing them. Do your documents truly require a vote of the homeowners for something like this? Ours for instance prohibit any sign without the BOD's approval: Signs. No signs of any kind shall be displayed to the public view of the properties except those on the Common Elements and approved in advance by the Board of Trustees, those regarding and regulating the use of the Common Elements and approved in advance by the Board of Trustees and those used
by the Declarant to advertise any unit for sale or rent or to identify the financing agent during the sales period. This section shall specifically preclude, among other, signs situated on the Common Elements or upon any unit advertising certain premises as being for sale or for rent, other than as
permitted to be used by the Declarant to advertise any unit for sale or rent or to identify the financing agent.

And realistically if someone puts up a sign advertising a yard sale on a Friday and the BOD receives a complaint. You go out and verify that indeed homeowner X has a sign up advertising a yard sale and you send him a violation notice. Most violation notices give the homeowner a certain number of days to cure the violation i.e. take down the sign or be fined. Monday the sign comes down probably before the homeowner gets the violation notice. They have had their yard
sale and you have upheld your covenants and as long as they do not do it again within a year (usual period for automatic fine for a repeat violation) everybody's happy.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DwightT on 06/17/2008 2:45 PM
Brian -
If the sidewalk is within the HOA boundaries, then the rule still applies. I've had real estate agents try to tell me that I can't touch their "Open House" signs if they were on the sidewalks because it is up to the city to enforce the no-signs law there. However the City Attorney informed me (and those agents) that while the city does have the authority to enforce city laws there, it is NOT an exclusive authority and does not prevent the HOA from also enforcing their own rules within their boundaries. So the HOA can (and should) follow the same procedures for violations on the sidewalks as it would for violations in the common areas.

BTW: the City Attorney also informed me that the sidewalks are actually on HOA property, but the city has an easement to install and maintain those sidewalks.

Dwight: the rule CAN apply. in MFHOA, for example, the sidewalks were NOT HOA common property. The city easement was in each homeowner's deed. So, while my rules covered the posting of signs on private and HOA property both, the original poster stated his rules covered HOA common property. If i had those rules, I could not enforce the sidewalk signage ban, for instance.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
Sorry, I mis-stated it. What I meant was that the sidewalks adjacent to your common areas are on HOA property. You are correct that the sidewalks adjacent to homes are on that homeowner's property.

However, the basic concept still stands. If your rules say no signs on common or private property, then you should be enforcing the rule even if the signs are on the sidewalks. You would follow the same procedures that you would for signs posted elsewhere.

If the signs are on the sidewalks adjacent to a home, then you would follow your procedure for homeowner violations. In our case we would send the homeowner a reminder letter about the rule. That is often enough to give the homeowner the "authority" to remove any signs that somebody else plants on their property.

If the signs are on the sidewalks adjacent to common areas, it would be kind of silly for the board to send a reminder letter to that owner, so since you have stated that you would remove signs posted in common areas, you should follow the same procedure and remove the signs from the sidewalks adjacent to the common areas also.

Typically for garage sales people want to put a big sign at the entrance to the community, and the entrance is often common area. So even if the no-signs rule only covers common areas, those garage sale signs at the entrance would need to be removed.
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Glen et.al.,

My query was more as to general Board practices. As to whether a good Board should sometimes look beyond the strict language of CCRs and ByLaws and instead do what's best, or appropriate, under given circumstances.

Assume the CCRs prohibit any signs on Common Property except for a masthead sign and traffic signs and private property signs. To correct myself, amending that provision would require a 2/3 vote by Unit Owners. The "purpose" is probably to prevent folks from hawking businesses, their political beliefs, or other concepts not benefitting/representing the entire community.

But young Mary is having her First Communion party and her parents want to put a sign up on CP directing guests to their house. Is that REALLY too much to ask of the Board? Or for that matter, the community?

Does common sense play any role in our Board duties, or do we just act like the nit-picking pricks we often get pegged as?

BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
Dwight, you and i are in agreement pretty much. My city had some weird signage ordinances, but i agree entirely with how you would handle them in your post.

JohnK3, you ask a tough question. A good board SHOULD adjust the rules to allow for special cases. the problem with doing that, and not simply following the rules as written, ever time, no exception, is remaining a GOOD board.

If the board allows an exemption, documents it, the reasons for it, and allows it to be exempted for the same reasons evermore, that's not bad. however, if the board allows Jane do do a communion sign, and jessie to do a mary kay sign, but fines terri for doing an avon sign, that causes problems. Perhaps the REASONS were valid for each: Communion is not for profit, the mary kay sign was notice for a single event hosted by someone who is NOT the mary kay consultant, and the avon was for an owner running a business from their home. But, unless the exact reasons for exemption are recorded, granting breaks to the rules leads to everything being an exemption, and the rules are not enforced fairly, etc. So, if your board is going to lax a rule, DOCUMENT IT THOUROUGHLY, so future boards know why, how, for how long, etc..
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Brian,

Yup, it IS a tough question. Which is why I raised it here.

I take on board your comments. Sounds like an excellent solution - until, of course, something goes wrong! Merci.
DwightT (Idaho)
Posts: 664
Posted:
John - it's an even more slippery slope than you can imagine. If you allow that Communion sign, are you also going to allow signs for the Esbat rituals that the Wiccan around the corner wants to hold? Neither sign benefits the entire community, but if you are going to allow one, you have to allow the other. And then what about the atheist who would rather not see any reminders of any religion. By allowing either of those signs, you are offending his beliefs.

Plus once you allow one type of sign, you pretty much have to allow all other types. The courts have ruled that sign restrictions based on content are not allowed. You either have to prohibit all signs or you can't prohibit any.

It's not about being "nit-picking pricks" as you put it, but it is about protecting your ability to enforce your rules and restrictions in general.
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
I can't imagine amending your covenants for this issue. I am lucky in that our dos are specific "for rent or for sale" signs are allowed if on the property being rented or sold. No other signs are allowed. We had a couple of "no trespassing" signs which we removed. Our HOA has a once per year garage sale which while not addressed in our docs has caused no problem. Now, if an individal owner held a garage sale every weekend and posted a sign I am sure we would take action. The main reason for sign restrictions is to not have the community look like a flea market. In addition to adhering to the docs some common sense is required.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
Quote:
... however, a board could waive the sign rules on a case by case basis, with petition, etc., to allow a temporary sign be placed for no more than X hours, in Y location, no larger than Z, etc..

I would agree with Brian on this one. If you decide to follow the path and get a lot of flack, then you can change course.

What most people seem to miss is that you are very unlikely to get sued without a buildup before hand. And if the buildup starts, then the time to try and deal with it is before the lawsuit occurs.

All that said, you may want to consider taking on a change to the CC&Rs to give the board the wiggle room you seek. Of course that will require a lot of work to collect the needed proxies since it is doubtful that the required number of people are not likely to simply show up or respond.
JohnK3 (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 967
Posted:
Again, I'm just seeking input from those of you who have already traveled this road and then come to the proverbial fork.

Hypothetical #2.

We have a set of "initial guidelines" the Developer included with our documents as to exterior modifications. Though the ByLaws specifically state any and all exterior modifications (patios, decks, awnings, sheds, etc.) must be submitted to the Board for approval, it does not appear the "initial guidelines" are actually part of the ByLaws.

Re: sheds. The guidelines state matching colors to those of the house for siding and roofing, not to exceed 100 sq. feet. Owner A requests a variance - 120 sq. feet, located in her backyard. Owner A also shows in her proposal some expensive shrubs to be planted on each short side (it will already be backed by existing, high mature evergreens) to make the shed as inconspicuous as possible. Owner B requests a variance - 240 sq. feet. The proposed shed is dark brown with black roofing (his house has light tan siding and roofing), and he plans to park it in the middle of his side yard with no added landscaping. It would be very conspicuous.

My gut says OK A, refuse B as proposed, but ask B to reconsider as to size and colors.

An aesthetic judgement call? Yes. Within the scope of Board powers? Yes.

Fair and reasonable? Your opinions, please.
SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202
Posted:
John - the INTENT is always something to look at. A sign directing party guests to a home probably is not the kind of "sign" the original HOA documents meant to prevent. However, a real estate sign that would be up for months probably is. The board must be discerning, for sure, in its decisions! Tough job.

As for the variances, again - the shed in the middle of the yard is probably what the CCR wants to prevent. The other example is workable, with little damage done to the overall HOA.

Your questions are samples of what we all go thru on the Board. That's why we hope the best and the brightest are on the Boards.
KirkW1 (Texas)
Posts: 1,665
Posted:
I would agree with Susan. One of the things to keep in mind is that the guidelines are just that... guidelines. And they were written without knowing exactly what is available on the market. Going along the hypothetical #2 - you may even find that the 120 sq foot shed is noticeably cheaper then the 100 sq ft shed. It also might be shorter.

If you are coming out of developer control, you may want to review/revise your guidelines. Our board is working out details for a short term committee that will be forming revised guidelines. (Then we will put these to a community vote.)
BrianB (California)
Posts: 2,820
Posted:
along with intent and rule changing, a different tactic to use would be to set up a set of "definitions" for terms used, if they don't exist.

For instance: a sign is defined as any freestanding notice, ad, banner, sticker, or placard made of any material placed on a sidewalk or property with the intent to attract attention, announce, communicate a service or item, ...yadda yadda. Items similar to this but temporarily placed (visible for no more than one day in a month) and removed within 8 hours of placement shall not be considered signs for purposes of this definition. Such items cannot, however, be placed on HOA common property or in violation of city sign codes, etc..

That helps some, but it also opens doors to others, so think it over carefully.

this would allow the communion signs, welcome home baby signs, a garage sale sign once a month, etc.. as well as others you might not care about so much.

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