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AnnaD2
(Florida)

Posts:281

06/17/2008 9:17 AM
This is a follow up to a past thread I had about letting members have access to association records. Here is an update. A member asked to see the association records. The property manager asked her specifically what records she wanted to see. (Note--all this was in letter form; paper trail.) She claimed she didn't have to say which records she wanted. Property manager sent her a date and time he'd be on the property for her to inspect the records. He head back nothing....if that was a good day/time or not. I (the secretary) laid out all the meeting minutes/agendas on the office table. The P.M. said if she wanted others, he'd pull them from the files for her. I was not going to meet with them (another board member was going to). The P.M. showed up at the correct date and time. He waited, and waited and wait, as did the other board member. She never showed up but they saw her walking her dog. Now today we receive a letter from her stating that per according to Florida State Statutes we did not respond or allow her access to the records in the allotted time frame. She says she will insist they impose the $50.00 per day (up to ten days) fine plus any legal fees she incurs, plus, (get this) she says I PERSONALLY will be responsible for such fees and attorney costs! She's claiming she can do this because the date and time letter did not specify 8:00 a.m. or 8:00 p.m. She's also suing for damages. I wonder how she got "hurt" by not being able to see the records. Gosh, it's so much fun being a "volunteer" here. We've already forwarded her letter to our association attorney. But I'd really like the opinions of all of YOU! I do have one question of you.....do you think it would be a good idea to hold a special meeting about this, since it's my opinion that it's going to become an "association issue", not just a board issue? Thank you everyone!!!

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1301

06/17/2008 9:25 AM
No until or unless she actually files suit then it is all speculation to call the SM would just serve to give her validation. I do not know Florida statutes but Ohio's I believe specifies during normal business hours which would invalidate the 8pm remark. Do not say anything on this matter without the advice and guidance of the Association's attorney; because the most innocent of statements can come back to bite you in the butt when litigation is involved.

AnnaD2
(Florida)

Posts:281

06/17/2008 9:26 AM
Excellent advise Glenn! Thank you. Others?

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2509

06/17/2008 9:32 AM
Anna, Follow Glens advice. Let the attorney handle this from now on. The association members do not need to be involved. If you have all of the documentation that you have attempted to answer her requests, there is nothing to worry about, Let her spend her money first and hopefully, she will tire of paying out money for her lack of following up on her part. It sounds to me like she is bored and read the Statutes for something to do. Do you know what she is looking for in your association records?

AnnaD2
(Florida)

Posts:281

06/17/2008 9:37 AM
No, Donna, we don't. We asked and she said she didn't have to say. I know we cannot legally ask WHY she wants them, but as our property manager said, we're not just going to dump all the records from the past seven years into a box for her and say, "Here you go!" All we were simply trying to do was make certain that the records SHE wanted were seperated from the items she's not privy to. (Legal issues/ personal information; etc.)

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:441

06/17/2008 9:52 AM
Devil's advocate..so the PM sent her a letter that didn't PROPERLY state a time (am vs pm) but you say the PM showed up at the 'correct' date and time. Was that am or pm? If it was am, and the lady went at 8pm and the PM wasn't there she is right. Don't try to defend the PM for being sloppy.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2509

06/17/2008 9:58 AM
Anna, I am sure that your P.M. knows this Statute but I copied this part for you to reread. I would be very careful what information that you provide her with. Keep a copy of this Statute handy for her in case she gets too pushy. You can charge her up to 50 cents per page and I would DO IT! Documents are not allowed to leave your office so she will have to pay. 720;303 c) The association may adopt reasonable written rules governing the frequency, time, location, notice, records to be inspected, and manner of inspections, but may not impose a requirement that a parcel owner demonstrate any proper purpose for the inspection, state any reason for the inspection, or limit a parcel owner's right to inspect records to less than one 8-hour business day per month. The association may impose fees to cover the costs of providing copies of the official records, including, without limitation, the costs of copying. The association may charge up to 50 cents per page for copies made on the association's photocopier. If the association does not have a photocopy machine available where the records are kept, or if the records requested to be copied exceed 25 pages in length, the association may have copies made by an outside vendor and may charge the actual cost of copying. The association shall maintain an adequate number of copies of the recorded governing documents, to ensure their availability to members and prospective members. Notwithstanding the provisions of this paragraph, the following records shall not be accessible to members or parcel owners: 1. Any record protected by the lawyer-client privilege as described in s. 90.502 and any record protected by the work-product privilege, including, but not limited to, any record prepared by an association attorney or prepared at the attorney's express direction which reflects a mental impression, conclusion, litigation strategy, or legal theory of the attorney or the association and was prepared exclusively for civil or criminal litigation or for adversarial administrative proceedings or which was prepared in anticipation of imminent civil or criminal litigation or imminent adversarial administrative proceedings until the conclusion of the litigation or adversarial administrative proceedings. 2. Information obtained by an association in connection with the approval of the lease, sale, or other transfer of a parcel. 3. Disciplinary, health, insurance, and personnel records of the association's employees. 4. Medical records of parcel owners or community residents.

AnnaD2
(Florida)

Posts:281

06/17/2008 10:10 AM
Sorry DJ1 but when the PM wrote: "I will be on the property Thursday morning, June 12 2008 at 8:00 to meet with you..." I would assume an adult would know that was A.M.

AnnaD2
(Florida)

Posts:281

06/17/2008 10:12 AM
Thank you Donna, as always, for your fast information. We are 718, condos, not 720, homeowners, yet I'm sure the wording is quite similar. I'm sitting here reading the statutes again.. By the way...is this statute the new one for 2008? Have those passed already?

ChrisT1
(Florida)

Posts:5

06/17/2008 10:29 AM
the home owner actually has to send a certified letter stating the request and if after 10 days you don't get them the specific info then they may file a complaint through tallahasse and the state is the one who may impose the fine.

AnnaD2
(Florida)

Posts:281

06/17/2008 10:38 AM
Hi Chris! I know that the NEW state statutes do say certified letter. Have they gone into effect? The old statutes do not say certified, and this whole mess started (I think) before the new statutes went into effect. Does the State do an investigation, or do they just start handing out fines because someone requests them to???

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2509

06/17/2008 10:52 AM
It goes into effect on July 1st and I do not believe it would be retroactive as this started prior to this date. The State will send a letter to both you and the woman, asking for explainations. I hope that your P.M has copies of anything that she sent or replied to. I don't see this going anywhere from the contents of the note to the woman re: time for inspection. Owners rarely get away with this unless the Board has blatently ignored a request--which yours did not.

AnnaD2
(Florida)

Posts:281

06/17/2008 11:28 AM
Thanks Donna! That makes me feel better. Yes, I have copies of all correspondence. Our PM's and hers. If she was confused about the time, she had eight days from the last letter until the meeting date to inquire.

JohnM3
(Florida)

Posts:208

06/17/2008 12:43 PM
Anna: The Law in Florida will be in HB679 I have copies on my computer. Glad to forward a copy of the Law . However and this is a biggie it has not been signed into law as yet by The Sunshine Gov. He is too busy trying to become John McCains VP designate. The bill is not law yet. But I personally would use it as my guidelines. Join CALN and you have 24/7 access to it. Remeber Florida law is different that 80 percent of the rest of the country electricjack2003@yahoo.com

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:915

06/17/2008 11:09 PM
I think you should make copies of every record she is entitled to see and ship the whole box to her (along with the bill). Then she can inspect whatever she wants and is out of your hair. (Not to mention that she has way more then she really wanted and a bill to go along with it.)

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:441

06/18/2008 4:28 AM
Problem with that Kirk is it is 2 different things. The right to inspect vs the right to obtain copies of what you inspect. At this point she's only asked for the right to inspect....but it would be funny!

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2509

06/18/2008 4:44 AM
DJ, Florida Statutes gives the rights to the Boards to charge up to 50 cents per copy if you use the Association copy machine. I doubt whether she would bring her own copy machine in to make her own copies. I also doubt that she would want to copy--say---200 pages. She must be either looking for something in particular or just fishing, trying to test the Board and P.M. In either scenerio,, she basically does not have a case against this Board as they made a earnest try to accomodate her. Some people just love drama and to be making waves. It gives them a false sense of power.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:1804

06/18/2008 5:46 AM
And a definition of "governing documents" is going to be interesting! I would say she would have to provide a list of the actual documents she wants to see. Any judge would eat her up; but I don't think it will get that far. You have been more than accomodating. Write her another letter. Apologize for the confusion. State the exact time and ask for a list of her requests; otherwise, the minutes, finanacial statements, proof of insurance, annual reports, large contracts, CCRs and bylaws should be available. Anything else the Board can claim to be "private" and not for public viewing without a court order.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2509

06/18/2008 7:16 AM
Exactly right, She needs to present or request which documents that she wants to copy or review. Association documents consist of pages and pages of minutes, approvals, requests, votes, budgets, letters to and from members and I could go on. And in Florida, they must be retained for at least 2 years and some for 7 years. That's a heck of a lot of paperwork for the P.M and office to have ready for her. I posted the list above of any and all documents that are NOT available for a members review. I hope that Annas P.M. knows her Statutes as for records for review. And NO, she(the owner) does not stand a chance of having the Board fined for not allowing her access to records.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:915

06/18/2008 8:16 AM
I don't really think making a copy of all the pages is practical. But if so, it would teach her a lesson in being careful what you ask for. And thus while I think it fair to ask what she wants to see, it should be assumed that she may want to see additional related documents if she had answered the question. And if she is concerned about cover-up then it might be reasonable that she not tell you what she wants to see so as to prevent you from trying to cover it up. All the same, she may also be trying to gain access to protected documents hoping that in the session if she goes through enough documents you won't take the time to redact information that should be. I would tell her that she can call and schedule an appointment during normal business hours at the PM's normal office. You should be under no obligation to bring the documents to the neighborhood. It also will allow the PM to get documents from storage as needed. I would explain that you will not just let her paw through them at random. If she does sue, then ask your attorney about the ability to try and bill for the time of the PM when she didn't bother to show.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:441

06/18/2008 8:56 AM
It is a little disconcerting (but human nature) that members here promote a retaliatory response to a homeowner who was within her right to request to see association records. 1.You do agree she is entitled to view the records as some have said the legislation allows don't you? It also doesn't require her to specify which records so playing games with what is provided is not in the spirit of open access. 2.She hasn't asked for copies so you can close that door. Begrudgingly fulfilling ones volunteer responsibilities is also not what the position entails, nor does it involve being abused by members. Maybe the homeowner has an axe to grind or maybe it was nothing more than a mixup with the communication. Without firsthand knowledge the quote I've seen isn't as clear as some might think for everyone who might read it. Where is 'on the property'? You were in the office so the PM should have stated CLEARLY date, time, location so no one could misunderstand. While the PM said they would be there in the morning that doesn't mean they were to meet at 8 AM. You don't want people to assume the worst of HOA boards so don't assume the worst from the members. Putting that all aside it is probably a good thing that the new legislation is being adopted in July just so as to avoid issue like this relating to accessing records that homeowners are entitled to. We've read enough cases here to recognize there are problems. Certified letters will stop Boards from claiming no request was sent as well as a 10 day timeline. Equally the homeowner can't claim they sent a request if they didn't so it protects the board too.

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:328

06/18/2008 3:46 PM
Posted By AnnaD2 on 06/17/2008 9:17 AM This is a follow up to a past thread I had about letting members have access to association records. Here is an update. A member asked to see the association records. The property manager asked her specifically what records she wanted to see. (Note--all this was in letter form; paper trail.) She claimed she didn't have to say which records she wanted. Property manager sent her a date and time he'd be on the property for her to inspect the records. He head back nothing....if that was a good day/time or not. I (the secretary) laid out all the meeting minutes/agendas on the office table. The P.M. said if she wanted others, he'd pull them from the files for her. I was not going to meet with them (another board member was going to). The P.M. showed up at the correct date and time. He waited, and waited and wait, as did the other board member. She never showed up but they saw her walking her dog. Now today we receive a letter from her stating that per according to Florida State Statutes we did not respond or allow her access to the records in the allotted time frame. She says she will insist they impose the $50.00 per day (up to ten days) fine plus any legal fees she incurs, plus, (get this) she says I PERSONALLY will be responsible for such fees and attorney costs! My experience is that people who say they will sue seldom do when they are asked for a retainer from their attorney. Just document things and wait until her attorney contacts you. Gosh, it's so much fun being a "volunteer" here. We've already forwarded her letter to our association attorney. But I'd really like the opinions of all of YOU! I do have one question of you.....do you think it would be a good idea to hold a special meeting about this, since it's my opinion that it's going to become an "association issue", not just a board issue? Thank you everyone!!!

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:328

06/18/2008 3:49 PM
I messed up sending my reply. I said people who threaten lawsuits seldom follow through when their attorney asks for a retainer and tells them their hourly fee. I would just document whatever you think is important and ignore her until (or if) you ever receive a letter from her attorney.

AnnaD2
(Florida)

Posts:281

06/18/2008 4:14 PM
Thank you ALL who replied. Your comments are always taken seriously. I do have ONE question: DJ1 are you a board member; former board member or just a disgruntled homeowner? Your comments are EXACTLY what prevents a Board from functioning properly. Always "somone" trying to micro-manage and nitpick the unpaid volunteers of an association. Board members are (in most cases) doing their best. There will always be a "know it all" person who strives to throw a "monkey wrench" into the actions of the board. Those people are "poison" for the association. They've only got one goal in mind----trying to make the Board look bad. They rarely succeed. To the rest of you, I offer this information: Our asssociation attorney said we shouldn't be concerned with her threat of a lawsuit. He said it would be thrown out. Of course, we'll be MORE than cooperative with the State of Florida, should she requessts an investigation.

SidneyP
(Florida)

Posts:274

06/18/2008 4:25 PM
Well, I'm not most people...I threatened to sue and I will if I can ever find an attorney....As I told the Board, I have the time, every e-mails mailed to me and from me and the money to sue....I have spoken w/three attorneys and have been told three times they don't handle HO's against the Association or HO Associations....So if anyone can tell me where to find an attorney in Pensacola, please tell me....I am fed up w/this Board not following our CC&R's but even the SS-720 and calling me names and telling me they are going to have me removed from the Board just because I call them on all they actions harming the Association and the HO's....I am also the first HO that had to jump through hoops to get approval for a fence. And even after approval by the ACC the VP stipped the fence crew when they showed up to set the post. This caused me a delay of several weeks....This was only done because it was ME...the trouble maker who wants the rules followed....Give me the name of an attorney and I show you mine was not just a threat....

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:328

06/18/2008 4:26 PM
AnnaD2, You are so right. Have you noticed that the disgruntled and nitpickers never volunteer to be on the board or even on a committee? They sit on the sidelines and complain but never do a thing for the HOA. Keep up your good work. It's just too bad that board members can't be paid for what they do for their community. I agree with your attorney, just ignore her threats and I doubt anyhing will come of it.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:441

06/18/2008 6:12 PM
Posted By AnnaD2 on 06/18/2008 4:14 PM Thank you ALL who replied. Your comments are always taken seriously. I do have ONE question: DJ1 are you a board member; former board member or just a disgruntled homeowner? Your comments are EXACTLY what prevents a Board from functioning properly. Always "somone" trying to micro-manage and nitpick the unpaid volunteers of an association. Board members are (in most cases) doing their best. There will always be a "know it all" person who strives to throw a "monkey wrench" into the actions of the board. Those people are "poison" for the association. They've only got one goal in mind----trying to make the Board look bad. They rarely succeed. To the rest of you, I offer this information: Our asssociation attorney said we shouldn't be concerned with her threat of a lawsuit. He said it would be thrown out. Of course, we'll be MORE than cooperative with the State of Florida, should she requessts an investigation. I'm curious how my comments prevent a board from functioning properly, or is it because I was trying to propose that there was some miscommunication that might warrant stepping back. Just because you are right doesn't mean you might not still want to try to reopen the communication. Sure is a heck alot cheaper than the frustration and aggravation of legal action whether that legal action is justified or not. ie. Driver cuts me off, and I can a) give em the finger and have him run me off the road and kill me ...but at least I know I was in the right, or, b)smile and give the moron plenty of leeway to kill somebody else.

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:328

06/18/2008 6:26 PM
I would say that three attorneys who will not represent you shows they think you don't have a case. But good luck.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:915

06/18/2008 6:44 PM
...So if anyone can tell me where to find an attorney in Pensacola, please tell me.... 1-800-342-8011 is the lawyer referal service run by your state bar association.

SidneyP
(Florida)

Posts:274

06/18/2008 6:48 PM
AnnaD2....I was a Board member, resigned and am now (since March 31st) the treasurer. What DJ1 said is not what prevents a Board from being functional..the Board makes that decision on their own. I am quite aware that there are some good Boards out there but there are some who only follow their own agenda, caring little for the Association or the HO's (which I will never understand because they are also a HO). I happen to be in the latter...Heres a few of the things you may call nitpick... Never maintaining the common area and I mean for 2 1/2 years, all weeds...bushes removed and never replaced, just empty holes.... Increasing the dues w/o prior notice to HO's...30 notice required.. Borrowing money from the Reserves w/o HO's vote or even being told.. Reduced our Reserve amount from $902.42 to $700. w/o HO vote or knowledge of this taking place...BUT still (below).... Not funding the Reserves for over a year(from last April 07 to present..all Reserve issues against FF-720 law.... Never forming a collection policy,yet in March imposed a late fee retro to Jan., all done w/o HO prior notice, even added late fee to HO's that had already paid prior to March..... The Association had always had a late interest fee but this Board is selective on this also...some HO's charged, some not.... Selective enforcement of rules and regulations...no violation policy either.... Our taxes were paid late for no reason... There was no W-9's filled out, no 1099/1096 filed...we have several contracted vendors, plus the attorney... Both of our fountains have been broken for months... Three MC in 2 years... Last MC hired charges double what we have paid before...for less service... We went from 6 delinquent account at take over to 14 today...we can't do anything about it because it cost $325. for each lien by attorney....this MC will not do this for us...last MC did file the liens for $20....We have no extra money for this...some have been left w/o any action until they are nearly $3,000...HO's were never sent any collection policy because one was never formed. Now, I don't think I am trying to be a "KNOW IT ALL" but I have read the CC&R's and FLSS-720 many many times and are on this and other sites every day. Sorry but I feel all the above complaints are a big deal(not nitpicking) and my calling the Board on these things was/is now making me a trouble maker, harrasser or any of the many names I have been called....I have never been a HO who just sits back and looks for things to complain about...It was I who went to the first MC after take over and for 3 hours went through files, coping the ones I thought important...It was I who met w/the landscaper, the Lake doctor to go over their contract, to discuss any changes we may want to make....It was my husband and I who pruned the many trees, weeded the planting beds on many occasion, paid to have the swing repaired...so I gave my community everything I could...About the "monkey wrench", it was thrown only where it was deserved....You also mentioned nitpicking "UNPAID VOLUNTEERS"...the Board members knew this before they "volunteered" If they can't fine the time to learn the CC&R's & SS then they should not except the job. The Association and the HO's have placed their trust in this Board to be the keeper of their investment, keep the HO's informed and to learn and follow the rules of law.

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