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JackD1
(Florida)

Posts:1

06/17/2008 6:24 AM
I received a code violation of $1000 for not maintaining the yard of weeds etc. These violations occurred before I bought the house. The Management company is saying this fine has to be paid by me. The week I moved in I spent over $2000 revitaliaing the lawn and plant areas and the property is now in excellent shape. Does anyone know how I can get out of paying this fine. Thank you

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 6:27 AM
Jack: Not sure how Florida is run, however, here in Kansas you would not be responsible for fines accumulated by the previous owner. You would be responsible for deficiencies in the property, but it sounds like you were a good neighbor and took care of your business. Some Florida folks can give you a better response on here in a little while.

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:811

06/17/2008 6:30 AM
Posted By JackD1 on 06/17/2008 6:24 AM I received a code violation of $1000 for not maintaining the yard of weeds etc. These violations occurred before I bought the house. The Management company is saying this fine has to be paid by me. The week I moved in I spent over $2000 revitaliaing the lawn and plant areas and the property is now in excellent shape. Does anyone know how I can get out of paying this fine. Thank you JackD1, I maybe wrong, but I always thought that fines that had accrued were generally paid at closing. Therefore, NO fines should be imposed to the new homeowner. Chuck~

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1893

06/17/2008 6:47 AM
Jack, The answer should lie within your gov. docs and/or FL state law. I have heard of assn docs that do pass on the liability to the new owner. In AZ, the fees are generally paid by the seller at closing. However, if the gov. docs. say the resp. lies with the new owner, there is no AZ state law addressing the issue to justify or negate what the gov. docs. say. I would suggest having a talk with the board stressing how you've made improvements to the landscaping and asking them to lift this fine. This should be no monetary loss to them as CCRs fines are really gravy to the treasury. One other thing you may want to check out is if the title co. was aware of this fine against the seller (did the HOA inform them or the R.E. agent?). It could be that they were supposed to deduct it from the seller's proceeds and they were in error by not doing so.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2511

06/17/2008 7:15 AM
Jack, Those fines should have been taken care of at the closing from the previous owner. Get on the phone and call your agent. Have them call Title Co. You should have bought Title Insurance which would have seen that. WHAT ARE THE DATES ON THE FINES? If you do not get any satisfaction from that way, then do appear before the Board with reciepts and pictures of all that you have corrected. Any reasonable Board should work with you and delete those fines. After all, the money from the fines was not in the yearly Budget and the money was not counted on for operating expenses so they should be willing to remove them from your property. Good Luck. I know that I would vote in your favor. These slackers who know that they are selling and cease to maintain and to pay, really are the cancers of our associations. Kinda makes me mad if you cannot tell from my demeanor.

DwightT
(Idaho)

Posts:373

06/17/2008 7:22 AM
FWIW: here is the part from our CC&Rs that would pass the fine on to the new owner: ... The assessments, together with interest, costs, and reasonable attorney's fees, shall be a charge on the land and shall be a continuing lien upon the Property against which each such assessment is made. Each such assessment, together with interest, costs, and reasonable attorney's fees, shall also be the personal obligation of the person who was the Owner of such Property at the time when the assessment fell due. However, the personal obligation for delinquent assessments shall pass to his successors in title. ... In our case, fines are "limited assessments" against a property to recover costs. As was mentioned, normally all of the fines are paid by the seller before escrow closes. Occasionally that doesn't happen though. When I've run into it, it usually involved a short sale (not a foreclosure) where there weren't enough funds in the transaction to cover the fines. In that case, in order to move things forward the buyer typically agrees to be responsible for any debt against the property. We did have one though where the seller's agent tried to get the HOA to waive the dues and fines without informing the buyer that there was a debt. One of the things to remember is that in some HOAs (like mine) the fines aren't necessarily a punitive charge against the homeowner, but are instead meant to reimburse costs. We don't have the ability to fine, but we can recover legal and administrative costs. These were charges against the HOA, so we can't really just waive them. Jack - you may want to ask for a breakdown of the charges. That may be what is happening in your case also.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 7:38 AM
Posted By JackD1 on 06/17/2008 6:24 AM I received a code violation of $1000 for not maintaining the yard of weeds etc. These violations occurred before I bought the house. The Management company is saying this fine has to be paid by me. The week I moved in I spent over $2000 revitaliaing the lawn and plant areas and the property is now in excellent shape. Does anyone know how I can get out of paying this fine. Thank you Jack: One other avenue you might have is to sue the previous owner in small claims court. This should have been disclosed in selling documents that there was a fine owed. If the seller did not disclose they are liable for this. Work with the board to get the fines waived, if they refuse you want to consult your realtor as to your options with the title company and the seller.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1646

06/17/2008 11:03 AM
brad is right, and if the fines were tied to the land, then your title company may also be at fault for not finding the lien and letting you know about it. Of course, it COULD be that the HOA never filed a lien, just wanted to, and thus, the fines were not liened on the property, and the title company could give clear title. in that case, be nice, follow the advice of others here, and work with the board. if that doesn't work, THEN you can move on to more colorful options.

JohnM3
(Florida)

Posts:208

06/17/2008 1:06 PM
Dear Jack: Pay the fine if you did a Quick Deed. This is a particular thing only done in Florida. If no deed searches or lawyers or deed insurance issued you are stuck for the full amount. This is what happens Folksa in Florida if you buy a foreclosure or a quik-claim deed is issued. If you do not know and you are in Broward County send me your street address and I will look it up onbcpa,net or do it yourself in the area marked sales see what code letttters are in the area next to your sale date. They usually dont get put in unless the deed was recorded at the County property Appraisers office. A bill was passed 6 years ago that when a home in Florida gets quick-claimed the fines follow the property. If no estopel was written you are really up a creek without a paddle in a canoe with a hole in the bottom. Too many people go to closing and sit and commit financial suicide 1. Get a building inspection 2. get an estopel from the HOA 3. have your lawyer do a search for existing mechanics liens 4. get a list of existing violations from the MC Be prepared to demand from the seller all repairs and the clearing of all violations. Find out the property management co call them give them the name of the hoa and ask to speak to the property manager. He who violates these rues commits financial problems for themselves.

CaroleJ
(Georgia)

Posts:32

06/17/2008 8:15 PM
Posted By JohnM3 on 06/17/2008 1:06 PM Too many people go to closing and sit and commit financial suicide 1. Get a building inspection 2. get an estopel from the HOA 3. have your lawyer do a search for existing mechanics liens 4. get a list of existing violations from the MC Be prepared to demand from the seller all repairs and the clearing of all violations. Find out the property management co call them give them the name of the hoa and ask to speak to the property manager. He who violates these rues commits financial problems for themselves. He/she who knows these rules in advance will look elsewhere for a residence, other than in an HOA.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:917

06/17/2008 9:52 PM
He/she who knows these rules in advance will look elsewhere for a residence, other than in an HOA. First, I don't think that follows at all. It amounts to doing due diligence. It would only make some sense that if you add an HOA you have added another potential debt holder. I suspect this is rhetoric from an HOA hater. I will say though that I am glad that Texas now requires buyer's title insurance. Unlike traditional title insurance that protects the first mortgage holder, this covers the buyer against unseen encumbrances. All the same, I would take two approaches. First, appeal to the board. The point should be to get the property corrected. But if they don't budge, then sue the seller and his/her agent for failure to disclose the debt. While the agent is unlikely to have known of the debt, he/she may have and would be on the hook for improper disclosure. If nothing else, forcing them to defend themselves will cause them to take better care next time.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1893

06/18/2008 8:22 AM
Kirk, You suggest suing the seller and his agent. How do you know the seller didn't disclose the info? Perhaps the title agent goofed. That's why I suggest checking out all these possibilities. Don't ever make any assumptions about who knew what!

CaroleJ
(Georgia)

Posts:32

06/18/2008 4:18 PM
Posted By KirkW1 on 06/17/2008 9:52 PM He/she who knows these rules in advance will look elsewhere for a residence, other than in an HOA. First, I don't think that follows at all. It amounts to doing due diligence. It would only make some sense that if you add an HOA you have added another potential debt holder. I suspect this is rhetoric from an HOA hater. Kirk, I'm not an HOA hater. In fact, far from it. However, I'm also not blind to the built-in inequities of the current HOA system and have put many hours into researching the the origins, statistics, laws and philosophies that form the underpinnings of community interest developments. Much of it, from any angle, isn't pretty from the point of view of the homeowner, especially ones that get caught by forces out of their control. And I also have to admit that I'm somewhat fascinated by the people that constantly defend the system, or see no problem with it, because no matter what other title they hold, or don't hold, they are still homeowners. Whether or not they have had any problems shouldn't mean an incapability to recognize the very real problems involved. The CAI, attorneys for the developers, scholars (both for and against), as well as some honest developers themselves, have recognized and acknowledged the need for reform. Changes are coming. There has been way too much discussion among those that can originate change for them not to. I am very much involved in an HOA and would like to see others succeed, so I'm adding a different voice to the table. The problem I had with what you wrote (not you yourself) was how the failures of others still ended up being the homeowner's fault. Based on private contract theory for voluntary organizations alone, where everyone is supposed to have a reasonable amount of information, the seller or the seller's agent are guilty of fraud in this case. This failure was then compounded by yet another failure for contracts in voluntary associations that are ignored in HOAs, where the buyer does not have the same legal status as members of the BOD once in the association. Pointing out the flaws and failures that are so widespread in HOAs doesn't make me an HOA hater, and I usually try to point to what the 'experts' and those involved in the field have written on a particular issue about the need for reform. In this instance, just following the regular rules of private contracts in voluntary associations would help.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:917

06/18/2008 6:58 PM
Carole, I agree that there are problems. And quite honestly, the truth is that HOAs are more to protect the developer then the homeowners. And there are some people who love to take over the power vacuum when the developer's interest wanes. I personally think owners should be able to take most disputes to a small claims court type of system. To be certain, there is often a sizable discrepancy between the ability to afford legal action. Now one thing that does occur to me as well, could the HOA also be culpable in this situation? I know that our HOA requires a resale certificate be issued before transfer. (I understand this is quite common.) And if such were issued without dealing with the delinquency, I think the HOA (or management company if it is used) should eat the amount. As a board member, I would make a huge stink over the issue and lean heavily on the management company to pay up.

CaroleJ
(Georgia)

Posts:32

06/18/2008 11:29 PM
Kirk, Thanks for your reply. I probably go further than you because I see the original protections given to the developer extending to the BODs, which are then given the powers of government but operate under the rules of corporations, all while advertising themselves as voluntary associations! Moving on to our 'common' ground. I too wondered about a resale certificate as I remember the closing attorney had to get one when selling my 2 bedroom for a 3. I guess what we don't know is if they are required in every state, but it does seem logical that something had to come from the HOA or the MC certifying an all clear on the property in whatever state, doesn't it?

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