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MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1432

06/16/2008 1:34 PM
Posted By BijouxF on 06/16/2008 9:45 AM Glen If you read all of my entries you will see what I said about willing to replace our mail box. I have responded to others questions & got in deeper to explain the situation. I believe the residents that I have talked with. The history of our board is not good at all, which is probably why I received a call this morning asking if we wanted to come to a meeting of concerned residents about the board. Thank you Okay, excuse me for being confused. What is the point, then, of your initial post? If you're willing to replace your mailbox, then why did you want to know if the HOA should be responsible for replacing it? If you're just venting, then say so, no harm, no foul. But in that case, you really don't want any help/advice from us, right?

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/16/2008 2:14 PM
Posted By MicheleD on 06/16/2008 1:34 PM Posted By BijouxF on 06/16/2008 9:45 AM Glen If you read all of my entries you will see what I said about willing to replace our mail box. I have responded to others questions & got in deeper to explain the situation. I believe the residents that I have talked with. The history of our board is not good at all, which is probably why I received a call this morning asking if we wanted to come to a meeting of concerned residents about the board. Thank you Okay, excuse me for being confused. What is the point, then, of your initial post? If you're willing to replace your mailbox, then why did you want to know if the HOA should be responsible for replacing it? If you're just venting, then say so, no harm, no foul. But in that case, you really don't want any help/advice from us, right? Michele: I would venture to say he is no different than most red blooded Americans, including myself...If there is a reason for someone else to pay for it then why should I spend my hard earned money on it. I think after reading the initial post that is all he was trying to ascertain is if the HOA should be held responsible for paying for it. In my mind no harm in ever asking anything...I think we all agree the HOA shouldn't be responsible.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:110

06/16/2008 3:05 PM
>>I think we all agree the HOA shouldn't be responsible.<< If you mean by "we" all posters in this thread I have to disagree. Afterall it was their party. I think the HOA should reimburse 50% of the cost and issue a letter of apology.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1432

06/16/2008 5:23 PM
Yes, Tony, we know you don't agree. However you are simply being argumentative. Your "logic" is more than flawed, and your position that the HOA pay half and issue a letter of apology is ludicrous.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:110

06/16/2008 5:40 PM
It's sweet of you to acknowledge my minority opinion. Often (especially in this case), the majority is wrong.

BijouxF
(North Carolina)

Posts:14

06/16/2008 6:14 PM
Brad Yes you are correct. I like to think that I can see things from all sides. Having said that it is hard sometimes not to be biased when you're the one in question. I asked the question to see if there were any other opinions to the situation that we are involved in. I was not trying to vent or waste anyones time as some one else stated. Thank you

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1432

06/16/2008 7:06 PM
Posted By TonyM3 on 06/16/2008 5:40 PM It's sweet of you to acknowledge my minority opinion. Any time, sugarloaf. And for the record, trolls are often "wrong." That's why they're called "trolls."

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:110

06/16/2008 7:33 PM
If I didn't know better I'd say you were on the verge of breaking rule one. Stay positive and try not to take opposing opinions so personally.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/16/2008 8:53 PM
Bijoux: Hey, doesn't hurt to try...I hate spending my money when I can try to get it done another way...

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1432

06/17/2008 5:45 AM
Posted By TonyM3 on 06/16/2008 7:33 PM If I didn't know better I'd say you were on the verge of breaking rule one. Stay positive and try not to take opposing opinions so personally. It's a good thing you don't know better, then, isn't it? You're 5 posts on this board, and all of them have been argumentative and trollish. Therefore, I'm "positive" you're a troll! Opposing opinions are one thing; ludicrous distortion of common sense for the sole purpose of inciting argument is something else altogether, and often in the tool kit for trolls! (Insert "Have a Nice Day" smiley here.)

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:110

06/17/2008 6:07 AM
Ironic that the only ones arguing are you and yourself.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 6:14 AM
Posted By TonyM3 on 06/14/2008 10:57 PM Does the hoa own the roads? I'm thinking if the driver was there on HOA business or as it's guest (ie the yard sale) than the HOA should be held somewhat liable. At a ballgame even though you are there at your own risk as per the ticket, if you get hurt at least the team will administer medical aid at their cost. If I were her neighbor and my guest did the damage I would feel ultimately responsible to make it right. The h/o wasn't in violation until the association's guest damaged her property. If the driver doesn't pay I think the burden falls to the HOA to make the corrections. Tony: I fail to see the logic in your post. The HOA announced a garage sale, they did not announce a "lets run into a mailbox" party. The HOA is not responsible for the negligent acts of others. Unless you can prove extenuating circumstances such as no street lighting (if it was still dark), potholes that would cause an accident, no traffic control devices (i.e. speed limit and stop signs), then this is a case where the homeowner should have filed a property damage claim against the driver, pure and simple. Using your logic, I could have gone to the publicized garage sale, broken into homes or shot and killed someone and it would be the HOA's fault because I was invited for a garage sale? In that case would the entire board be brought up on murder charges?

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:110

06/17/2008 6:43 AM
Interesting take on the murder scenario but this discussion is about a motor vehicle accident. If you live in a fault State you're aware that even if you get rear-ended by another vehicle you bear some of the fault for being there. (Not my idea of what's right, just what is) When you post a public invitation or advertisment to a party you're going to assume some liability as people wouldn't ordinarily be there had you not summoned them. I suppose had someone been hurt or killed it would put a bitter end to the tradition because only then would the HOA realize the potential for liability. They'd probably be viewed as having deep pockets and wind up at least being named in a lawsuit.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 6:52 AM
all I can say is good luck proving the HOA at fault. Lets take it another step, lets say the HOA didn't advertise but homeowner A did. Should Homeowner A then be held responsible for damage caused by Driver B to Homeowner C's mailbox. I don't think so. You are right, in a lawsuit it is often the deep pockets that get sued, right or wrong.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1480

06/17/2008 7:03 AM
Posted By TonyM3 on 06/17/2008 6:43 AM Interesting take on the murder scenario but this discussion is about a motor vehicle accident. If you live in a fault State you're aware that even if you get rear-ended by another vehicle you bear some of the fault for being there. (Not my idea of what's right, just what is) When you post a public invitation or advertisment to a party you're going to assume some liability as people wouldn't ordinarily be there had you not summoned them. I suppose had someone been hurt or killed it would put a bitter end to the tradition because only then would the HOA realize the potential for liability. They'd probably be viewed as having deep pockets and wind up at least being named in a lawsuit. Tony, I, like Michele, consider your logic quite flawed. But I find it interesting that now you talk of an auto accident resulting in death or injury and the HOA being held accountable. Why didn't you answer my question posed to you earlier: ". . . if I come to your yard sale, that you've advertised in the local newspaper, and hit your neighbor's mailbox while trying to park in front of your home, are you responsible for replacing your neighbor's mailbox? Or, what if I crashed into another vehicle in front of your house and caused bodily harm to someone. Are you liable for my accident? Afterall, I'm your "guest"." Perhaps you were too busy answering Michele! But, seriously, I certianly would like an answer now that the shoe is on the other foot. Hey, Tony, I just thought of something. Since you're in AZ, perhaps you should plan on attending the next D'backs game. On the way to the stadium should you get into an auto accident you can sue the city of Glendale -- they have deep pockets. Perhaps that would warrant buying those season tickets!

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:110

06/17/2008 7:24 AM
If I were hurt within the D'Backs association (i.e. Chase field) by another patron- depending on the circumstances I believe the team would have some exposure. They get sued all the time and they often settle. I know if I were Homeowner A I'd be bummed about it and at least offer an apology. If Homeowner C decided before hand they were not going to participate due to the inherent danger associated with inattentive driving and yard sales I'd be willing to bet they would be able to get a case into court against A. We had a spirited debate about this very issue at a board meeting. The Board decided we didn't have the right to spend association funds for anything (yard sale advertising/signage) not outlined in the documents. If this were to be done it would have to be approved unanimously by all 235 members. Never happen. We decided that we would approve a written request for temporary signage to be placed on private (not association) property. We thought that was about as much exposure we'd let the association be subjected to.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1480

06/17/2008 7:39 AM
Posted By TonyM3 on 06/17/2008 7:24 AM If I were hurt within the D'Backs association (i.e. Chase field) by another patron- depending on the circumstances I believe the team would have some exposure. They get sued all the time and they often settle. I know if I were Homeowner A I'd be bummed about it and at least offer an apology. If Homeowner C decided before hand they were not going to participate due to the inherent danger associated with inattentive driving and yard sales I'd be willing to bet they would be able to get a case into court against A. We had a spirited debate about this very issue at a board meeting. The Board decided we didn't have the right to spend association funds for anything (yard sale advertising/signage) not outlined in the documents. If this were to be done it would have to be approved unanimously by all 235 members. Never happen. We decided that we would approve a written request for temporary signage to be placed on private (not association) property. We thought that was about as much exposure we'd let the association be subjected to. Yeah, Tony, there are frivilous lawsuits being heard in court every day. And, sometimes they are settled out of court; not because the person (or entity) being sued is guilty, but because it's just easier and lest costly to settle. But, that still doesn't make me think the HOA would be legally liable just because they advertised the yard sale. Regarding the use of funds w/i your assn. Are you saying the board cannot use funds for activities that would be "desirable or beneficial to the general common interests of its members, owners or residents."? Frankly, I would be a bit surprised there isn't something to this nature in your CCRs.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:110

06/17/2008 7:39 AM
>>...come to your yard sale, that you've advertised in the local newspaper, and hit your neighbor's mailbox while trying to park in front of your home, are you responsible for replacing your neighbor's mailbox? Or, what if I crashed into another vehicle in front of your house and caused bodily harm to someone. Are you liable for my accident? Afterall, I'm your "guest"<< Again, I'd feel horrible about the mailbox and if my guest didn't make it right, I absolutely would. Afterall, it is my neighbor who I'd like to maintain good relation and my dummy of a guest. Like it or not there is some guilt perceived through association. If my guest hurt someone in the street I'd probably contact my attorney to determine the extent of my exposure. Are you not legally responsible for your guests if they've used alcohol?

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:110

06/17/2008 7:41 AM
>>Are you saying the board cannot use funds for activities that would be "desirable or beneficial to the general common interests of its members, owners or residents."? Frankly, I would be a bit surprised there isn't something to this nature in your CCRs.<< There isn't...and what's desireable and beneficial to one may not be to another.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 7:46 AM
Posted By TonyM3 on 06/17/2008 7:24 AM If I were hurt within the D'Backs association (i.e. Chase field) by another patron- depending on the circumstances I believe the team would have some exposure. They get sued all the time and they often settle. I know if I were Homeowner A I'd be bummed about it and at least offer an apology. If Homeowner C decided before hand they were not going to participate due to the inherent danger associated with inattentive driving and yard sales I'd be willing to bet they would be able to get a case into court against A. We had a spirited debate about this very issue at a board meeting. The Board decided we didn't have the right to spend association funds for anything (yard sale advertising/signage) not outlined in the documents. If this were to be done it would have to be approved unanimously by all 235 members. Never happen. We decided that we would approve a written request for temporary signage to be placed on private (not association) property. We thought that was about as much exposure we'd let the association be subjected to. Tony: Not sure how the D'Backs do things but I can tell you from working in the sporting industry that teams and organizations do not settle "all the time". First they have insurance, and at that point it is up to the insurance company if they are going to pay. There are many factors, such as negligence, that goes into this. But in baseball, for example, courts have sided with clubs that patrons hit by foul balls can not recover damages from the club. This has been tried and won several times by clubs. Now, if there is a hole in a backstop net that a ball went through, that is a different story, because of negligence. But, just because the D-Backs invited you to game, and you bought a ticket on the first base line and get nailed by a foul ball, doesn't mean big bucks for you. The club is not responsible. The settling you are referring to, if it happens, is more than likely an insurance company. In my 11 years in this industry the company I have been with has never settled or paid a client for injuries or damages. If I were homeowner A I wouldn't apologize, I did nothing wrong. I don't seriously see how they could be liable. That would be any time you invite over a friend, family member, etc., you are responsible for their actions....Won't happen. Now if you supply them with booze and get them lit up, yes, but you need to examine the extenuating circumstances.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 7:47 AM
Posted By TonyM3 on 06/17/2008 7:41 AM >>Are you saying the board cannot use funds for activities that would be "desirable or beneficial to the general common interests of its members, owners or residents."? Frankly, I would be a bit surprised there isn't something to this nature in your CCRs.<< There isn't...and what's desireable and beneficial to one may not be to another. Mine don't have that either...

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:110

06/17/2008 7:56 AM
Brad, I wrote they get sued all the time and settle often. Poor choice of words I guess. I mean they get sued often enough to have in-house lawyers and they often settle just for the benefit of public relations. I don't believe the issue is as cut and dry as many of you make it out to be as there are always extenuating circumstances. In my opinion there is a question of legal and moral resposibility, if that makes me a troll- so be it.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1480

06/17/2008 8:04 AM
Posted By TonyM3 on 06/17/2008 7:56 AM Brad, I wrote they get sued all the time and settle often. Poor choice of words I guess. I mean they get sued often enough to have in-house lawyers and they often settle just for the benefit of public relations. I don't believe the issue is as cut and dry as many of you make it out to be as there are always extenuating circumstances. In my opinion there is a question of legal and moral resposibility, if that makes me a troll- so be it. Tony, Legal and moral resp? Yes, if you did something legally wrong or morally irresponsible. A person hitting my mailbox while coming to my assn advertised yard sale just doesn't qualify for either.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 8:04 AM
Tony: I never said you were a troll...however, to me just because I advertise a yard sale does not mean I should be personally responsible for the actions of every person who comes to my sale. If that were the case you could track their whole trip from their house to my sale and back and anything that happens along that path could be partially my fault. I don't think you will ever see that happen. Yes, extenuating circumstances often play into this, but in keeping things simplistic I don't agree with your arguement that the HOA should be somewhat responsible.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:110

06/17/2008 10:07 AM
Fair enough...we'll have to agree to disagree because I contend that once inside the boundaries of the association as it's invited guest the association has a legal and moral responsibilty as to the behavior and/or actions of said guest. Every year we have a church group (where we hold our meetings) that in exchange we let them use our common property (large open grassy area) for their annual picnic. Our attorney makes sure we always get all the proper liability waivers signed and their insurance certificates before any type of event takes place. That says to me there is exposure to the association as to there invited guests.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

06/17/2008 11:20 AM
Posted By TonyM3 on 06/17/2008 10:07 AM Fair enough...we'll have to agree to disagree because I contend that once inside the boundaries of the association as it's invited guest the association has a legal and moral responsibilty as to the behavior and/or actions of said guest. Every year we have a church group (where we hold our meetings) that in exchange we let them use our common property (large open grassy area) for their annual picnic. Our attorney makes sure we always get all the proper liability waivers signed and their insurance certificates before any type of event takes place. That says to me there is exposure to the association as to there invited guests. Tony: What you are doing with the church group is typical in and rental or group usage of another facility. I do the same thing when I rent out facilities at work, make them purchase liability insurance.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2287

06/17/2008 11:30 AM
Mary, You are so right on this. If we followed the idea of the posters who blame the Assoc for the mailbox getting hit,. we as an association would never be able to survive.We cannot be responsible for everything. That is why drivers have insurance, associations and homeowners have it too. It is getting that we should be afraid to leave our own properties for fear of being sued by someone who was not paying attention or being just plain careless. And while we are at it, no friends or relatives can come for a visit either and lets not forget, no trips to shop or go to church. What's this world coming to?

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1432

06/17/2008 12:21 PM
I see the troll got what he wanted. An argument about nothing. There never was even a "moral" obligation on the part of the HOA, and this poster wants us to think there was. It was faulty logic from his first post, and continues to be. It's hilarious, too, that he considers ME the one "arguing" (with myself of all things) when my only contribution to his B.S. was to call out the B.S. Interesting take on "arguing." At any rate, the homeowner should replace the mailbox with the approved mailbox version, which she has already stated she was willing to do, and she can forget trying to get the HOA to pay for something that somebody else did. It would be nice (for her) if they were somehow responsible, but they are not. It's a shame she didn't get something from the other party 2 years ago. Water under the bridge now, though.

TonyM3
(Arizona)

Posts:110

06/17/2008 1:25 PM
I guess your thousand posts grants you special privileges. Now I know what the members are talking about when they cry selective enforcement.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1196

06/17/2008 2:41 PM
Michele I was re-reading one of Tom Clancy's books and came across a quote I feel is quite apropos here: The world is full of people who can only feel big by making other people look small, and the bigger the target, the better they feel about it.

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