IreneC
Posts:0
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| 06/11/2008 10:59 AM |
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I really did get lost in that original post of mine. I am asking if our board prohibiting storage of a collapsable cart in our garage for my disabled spouse to use when he is bringing goods up from the garage to the house. It is stored neatly in the garage when waiting his arrival. Our garage is a common area.. but spaces are privately owned in a sub terrain style. Our site impaired ex president stated that my disabled spouse's cart is against the rules.. ect.
I am going to ask for the rule of storing carts in the garage be ok'd as long as they are neatly set up against the wall or hung on a hook like our bikes are allowed. If this gets declined I could look at the legal route of discrimation and hook up our hoa atty on this one. Ignorance is scary to me when people who are blatantly ignorant act as if they aren't in the case of the ex president. Her opinion is not shared by the majority so it looks as if I have a few people to speak to in order to change our rules.
ADA is great but from what I see and read it does NOT apply to our situation in the ways that this is private property. |
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:1742
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| 06/11/2008 11:03 AM |
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Irene:
I didn't look at the last thread, probably should before I post, but what the heck....I think ADA will apply in this instance, I think your HOA has to make reasonable accomodations for your husband. Is storing your collapsable cart in the garage reasonable, I can't answer that. On the surface it would seem to be, but I don't know. Any common area of an HOA should be subject to ADA policies and rules. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1304
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| 06/11/2008 11:07 AM |
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| Irene I would put in a written request that the cart be allowed to hang against the wall while the car was not in the stall. I would list the reasons for it and ask that a "REASONABLE ACCOMMODATION" be made for his disability. Then if you do end up having to contact the attorney you might mention the selective enforcement going on allowing one BOD member to screen her deck in violation of the CC&R's. This being allowed while "picking" on the person with the disability and ask him/her how they think that will play out in court. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1304
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| 06/11/2008 11:15 AM |
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Brad please don't mention ADA here…(I can't even talk to my poor Aunt Ada without shuddering in horror after that thread) See http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/47326/view/topic/Default.aspx
While the ADA probably would not apply to her situation the FHA IMO would.
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BrianB
(California)
Posts:1646
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| 06/11/2008 12:05 PM |
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It can be tough to keep the acronyms straight.
This situation DEFINATELY sounds like a successful lawsuit under the Civil Rights act of 1968, the Fair Housing Act (title III, i think, but my memory may be shot). It is that body of law that uses the term "reasonable accomodation" and specifically includes/reminds people that HOA's are included in its' coverage. The FHA certainly seems to apply here, and as long as the plaintiff's handicap meets the criteria for inclusion, allowing a folding shopping cart to remain in an empty parking stall, and hang from a hook out of the way when the car is parked certainly SOUNDS reasonable. I would say very few judges would ever find that unreasonable. |
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:1742
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| 06/11/2008 2:32 PM |
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| ADA, FHA, Civil Rights...it doesn't matter...what matters is the HOA has an obligation in its common areas to make reasonable accomodations...You can call it whatever you want...they just need to do it. |
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JohnD14
(New York)
Posts:4
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| 06/11/2008 2:45 PM |
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I never did see anywhere in the previous thread where it was explained that their dwelling was Condo, TH, Single family Attached, Apt, etc. It makes a difference.
Obviously you all are very passionate about the issue, but please enough! Have the board and the poster consult with their own attorneys.. You are encroaching on practicing law. Give it up. No one is going to convince anyone else that they are right or wrong. Let's the experts decide this one.. Please. |
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GlenL
(Ohio)
Posts:1304
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| 06/11/2008 3:20 PM |
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"He uses a small collapsible wire wheeled cart to take groceries from his car to our unit on the 4th floor" Posted by Irene (Spelling corrected)
John unless you know of a way to stack single stand alone homes, I'm guessing condo. I ruled out TH because they are generally side by side, she is fighting with the BOD so that rules out apt.
Finally if you don't like this thread there are 168 pages here with 30 topics per page, you don't have to read this one or her other one on this subject and yet still have thousands to choose from. No one is practicing law here, just presenting opinions; they're like bellybuttons - everyone has one.
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:1812
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| 06/11/2008 3:39 PM |
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If this is the same small, collapsable wire cart I use to carry my mother's groceries up to her 14th floor apt., then it is small enough to store in the trunk of my car. I take it out when I have to use it, put it away when I am done in the trunk.
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IreneC
Posts:0
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| 06/11/2008 4:54 PM |
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| I already we posted we drive a Mazda Miata.. and it doesn't fit with the wheel chair.. lol I have never owned a boat like the one you are describing.. |
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:917
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| 06/11/2008 5:28 PM |
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I don't know if the words "reasonable accommodation" are found in other places besides the ADA employment section, but the concept is very much found all over the place.
Irene before going the legal route, I would also go to the neighbors. Start a petition. Perhaps things are different there, but most people I have met want to do the right thing. And I believe most people would think it only reasonable that a collapsible cart be allowed in the garage while you shop. Then again, I would think it only reasonable that anyone could leave such a cart on a hook the same as a bicycle. The point of the rule is to keep the area looking nice and out of the way. And leaving it on a hook fits that pattern. |
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BrianB
(California)
Posts:1646
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| 06/11/2008 6:10 PM |
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Posted By KirkW1 on 06/11/2008 5:28 PM
I don't know if the words "reasonable accommodation" are found in other places besides the ADA employment section, but the concept is very much found all over the place.
They are indeed Kirk... first famous in the Fair Housing Act (1968) Sec. 804. ⎶ U.S.C. 3604] Discrimination in sale or rental of housing and other prohibited practices. Section F(3) mentions reasonable accommodation and reasonable modifications.
the terms are used in a context making it illegal for a handicapped person to make said accommodations AFTER purchase in order to live equitably, not just before/during the purchase. It would be an "other prohibited practice".
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MicheleD
(Kentucky)
Posts:1575
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| 06/11/2008 6:41 PM |
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Susan, again, the cart is used to carry groceries (or other bags of merchandise), that he is getting when he uses the car, which, once the wheel chair is included, can't fit everything else. The cart is only needed because he can't physically carry the merchandise up very well without it.
I think the board is being totally unreasonable, and, though I am not an attorney or a judge, I would find it unusual to think that the board would prevail. They are truly being unreasonable. |
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:1742
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| 06/12/2008 7:06 AM |
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Posted By MicheleD on 06/11/2008 6:41 PM
Susan, again, the cart is used to carry groceries (or other bags of merchandise), that he is getting when he uses the car, which, once the wheel chair is included, can't fit everything else. The cart is only needed because he can't physically carry the merchandise up very well without it.
I think the board is being totally unreasonable, and, though I am not an attorney or a judge, I would find it unusual to think that the board would prevail. They are truly being unreasonable.
Michele:
I think you and I finally agree on something!!!! I think you hit it on the head, is it reasonable for the board to deny the request, no...I hope it doesn't have to go that far, but I would feel very confident in a judge siding with this couple. |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:1812
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| 06/13/2008 2:42 PM |
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I think the board is being silly in not allowing residents to hang something like this cart up off the floor. The rules need to be more flexible for carts, babystrollers, bikes, and other travel/storage modes.
But having said that,be warned: this "cart" is not a wheelchair accessory and they could argue that. |
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:1742
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| 06/13/2008 2:54 PM |
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Posted By SusanW1 on 06/13/2008 2:42 PM
I think the board is being silly in not allowing residents to hang something like this cart up off the floor. The rules need to be more flexible for carts, babystrollers, bikes, and other travel/storage modes.
But having said that,be warned: this "cart" is not a wheelchair accessory and they could argue that.
But it is a reasonable accomodation to help with the disability...that is the standard that has to be applied... |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:1812
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| 06/14/2008 8:13 PM |
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And a stroller helps a mom, too . . .
I'd say get this discussion out of the "disability" issue and get it into a "storage" discussion.
The real question is can residents be allowed to store things in the garage next to their parking place if they are up off the ground stored neatly? Apparently the current CCRs say no.
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:1742
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| 06/14/2008 9:15 PM |
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Posted By SusanW1 on 06/14/2008 8:13 PM
And a stroller helps a mom, too . . .
I'd say get this discussion out of the "disability" issue and get it into a "storage" discussion.
The real question is can residents be allowed to store things in the garage next to their parking place if they are up off the ground stored neatly? Apparently the current CCRs say no.
comparing apples to oranges isn't the answer...unless the mother has a bonafide disability bringing in your analogy has no reference.
The real question is if the BOARD is going to make a reasonable accomodation for a disabled resident...More than likely this person didn't choose to be disabled. Last time I checked you have to do something to get pregnant and have a child. |
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BrianB
(California)
Posts:1646
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| 06/14/2008 10:14 PM |
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| not always brad. there was this one time, about 2000 years ago.... |
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:1742
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| 06/15/2008 10:05 AM |
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depends on whether you believe that religion or not  |
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BrianB
(California)
Posts:1646
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| 06/15/2008 4:16 PM |
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lol.. NOT according to those who believe in that religion...
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NicoleO4
Posts:0
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| 06/15/2008 4:28 PM |
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| None the less, Irene's concerns are valid and it sounds like she has a very ignorant bunch of directors. |
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SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:1812
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| 06/15/2008 6:11 PM |
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Nicole - why do you say that? They are only following the current CCRs. They really don't have a choice in the matter UNTIL they take steps to change the rule.
Irene wants a dispensation on that CCR. The Board cannot issue that. She needs to work on adding an addendum to the CCRs which allows the Board some leeway for special circumstances, such as accomodating the handicapped or elderly.
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KirkW1
(Texas)
Posts:917
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| 06/15/2008 8:53 PM |
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Nicole - why do you say that? They are only following the current CCRs. They really don't have a choice in the matter UNTIL they take steps to change the rule.
Irene wants a dispensation on that CCR. The Board cannot issue that. She needs to work on adding an addendum to the CCRs which allows the Board some leeway for special circumstances, such as accomodating the handicapped or elderly.
Susan,
I would suggest that you find out more about disability law. In case you are not aware of it, federal law supersedes the CCRs. And federal law REQUIRES reasonable accommodation. It does not give the ability to stand behind rules are rules arguments. And your expression above is precisely why the law has been written.
I simply find it amazing that people continue to show the same lack of understanding about people with disabilities. The simple fact is that the cart is NOT a convenience issue. (Unless perhaps you consider living a convenience.) Or perhaps you think it a mere inconvenience if someone can not make multiple trips to the car. I mean really, they should just live without frozen or cold foods.
The point is that Irene's husband can not physically get his groceries from the car to their unit without the use of the cart because of a disability. And for all we know he can't make the trip many times. (He shouldn't be expected to.)
I suggest you look into this if you serve on a board. It could save your organization thousands of dollars from non-compliance with federal (and state) disability laws. |
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