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RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2008

07/07/2008 7:03 PM
Don, I want to get in a quick question before you fade away into the woodwork and re-appear where I least expect you. But, you do speak with authority or maybe better yet, you speak from some a vast knowledge pool and it shows. Given this rental/no rental permsission or what ever it is in our covenants, if a clause is included by vote of council to define a clear rental program and add certain requirements that strenghthen and clearify the program, then the day after adding the amendments, the Board has yet to enforce any new mendments or abide by any of the requirements. If a court looks at this, how do you think they would rule in a suit against the BOD for whatever you want to call it?

DonN
(Michigan)

Posts:230

07/08/2008 7:22 AM
RobertR1 I don't want to hedge, but it depends on the specifics in the CC&Rs. If the CC&Rs grant the association (board) broad authority (beyond the scope of provisions in the CC&Rs) to write rules and regulations, then courts would likely support the board's actions if the new rules are reasonable, fair, not arbitrary, and not discriminatory. From an owner's standpoint, this is the worst situation, and ripe for abuse by boards. Courts may be receptive to an argument that the rules and regulations don't run with the land (not recorded with the register of deeds against all property units) and therefore are unenforceable if inconsistent with, or beyond the scope of, the provisions in the CC&Rs. If the CC&Rs grant the association (board) limited authority to write rules and regulations consistent with the CC&Rs for the implementation and administration of the CC&Rs, then the property rights and obligations remain totally in the CC&Rs. R&R would be enforceable only if consistent with the CC&Rs and reasonable, fair, not arbitrary, and not discriminatory. This is probably best for the owners and the association. The requirements are in the CC&Rs and cannot be amended without approval of the owners. If the CC&Rs are silent with regard to implementation and administration, then the CC&Rs are controlling. Board rules would not be enforceable in my view. This is all just common sense which the court usually apply unless the courts are bound to strictly interpret documents, as they are with CC&Rs. Again, this is not legal advice, but rather observations based on my research. Others may have different observations. I invite their posts.

Don Nordeen Governance of Property Owners Associations http://swagman.typepad.com/poa_governance/

JimH5
(Indiana)

Posts:3

07/08/2008 9:46 AM
Our HOA declarations restrict rentals to 20% or in our case 8 units. The property is just now being turned over to the owners and the declarant has not enforced the restriction, so we have more rentals than allowed. Several of the units are owned by investors who have not been able to sell so obviously they want to rent out their units and since no one has stopped them in the past they totally disregard all rules and restrictions. One has even resorted to saying he sold on a land contract to try to get around the limit. We intend to enforce the limit but will probably have to evict at least one resident to get the message across that rentals above the limit will no longer be tolerated. As far as the current renters go they are all nice people but don't have the respect for the property that the owners have and are the ones most likely to violate the rules, again violations that have not been enforced by the declarant. I will not make a judgement about the people renting but I will say that when we purchased we agreed to abide by the rules and that means we did not to want to live in an apartment building or we could have made that choice.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1646

07/08/2008 9:51 AM
i always like hearing that the renters have less respect for the property than owners do, since the property IS STILL THE OWNER'S. honestly, how much respect does the owner have for the property, to rent it to bad renters? How diligent is the owner, to allow that to happen? How "good" is that absentee owner? They aren't even taking care of their property, their investment, and yet we think they are far better owners than they deserve to be.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1574

07/08/2008 11:30 AM
Jim, the difference with your HOA and, say, ours, is that we HAVE no rental clause at ALL in our CC&Rs. Because of that, trying to institute one would be ill advised. Since your homeowners knew BEFORE they bought into their restrictions that their ability to rent out their property would or could be restricted, even though poorly enforced, they will have little to stand on in trying to prevent the enforcement. And to Brian, who said, "i always like hearing that the renters have less respect for the property than owners do, since the property IS STILL THE OWNER'S. honestly, how much respect does the owner have for the property, to rent it to bad renters? How diligent is the owner, to allow that to happen? How "good" is that absentee owner? They aren't even taking care of their property, their investment, and yet we think they are far better owners than they deserve to be. " Total agreement.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2008

07/08/2008 1:05 PM
Well, you can add my name to the list. Owners that rent simply do not provide the attention to the property that residents that own do or non-residents that don't rent for that matter. I can't imagine how you can consider otherwise, but, more than once I have had a absentee that rents declare the people that live there full time should have to pay a premium because we use the facilities more. You have to have a large dedication to the property to stick around and hear some of this stuff coming from owners that rent their property. I am not saying they are foolish or stupid or something because they believe as they do. I don't know any well enough to judge their thught process. But after living here a long time stuff seeps into your mind that makes it hard to believe they have the same committment to the association as resident owners. At this present time we have a couple side by side ground floor ocean front large (3 bedroom) units that are rented. And this is not any different that some of the owner rentals or sometimes a unit with multiple owners. Anyway these units (2)are owned by same individuals (Absentee). In front of these units are 22 plastic lawns chairs, fishing gear, potted plants, other stuff and six huge rainbow colored plastic inner tubes stacked up 7 feet high. All, against our Rules of Conduct and our rental program (a part of the By-laws), goes on 24/7, and we have covenants against this kind of conduct. For the past 18 years our boards have not addressed the issue, even after amending the Rental program to tighten up requirements. I find my peace in the joy of the location of the Condo and the saving grace that we living here get a break during off season. I bring up the whole matter because this whole scenerio I picture has to be looked at through the wide lens. I know, I can't change them, and I am not certain anyone else can. Why, because it comes down to cost and reward. Is the cost I pay worth what I get? Apparently it is and my reward trumps my helplessness with not changing the picture over all these years. Hell we just passed a ruling that all Regime meetings will have an open format, and you would have thought someone had given me the Lock Box on Millionaire, but my doorbell don'r ring all the time anyway.

KevinK7
(Florida)

Posts:59

07/08/2008 11:17 PM
My neighborhood in Florida used to be a neighborhood for older people. Several years ago, I believe my neighborhood was involved in a big lawsuit that prevented them from restricting sale to those under the age barrier... I don't know how relevant this is to renting out homes but I know after that decision a lot of younger people were renting homes from the residents (most being snowbirds). I don't believe anything is in my CC&Rs limiting that kind of action.

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:811

07/09/2008 6:27 AM
Posted By JimH5 on 07/08/2008 9:46 AM Our HOA declarations restrict rentals to 20% or in our case 8 units. The property is just now being turned over to the owners and the declarant has not enforced the restriction, so we have more rentals than allowed. Several of the units are owned by investors who have not been able to sell so obviously they want to rent out their units and since no one has stopped them in the past they totally disregard all rules and restrictions. One has even resorted to saying he sold on a land contract to try to get around the limit. We intend to enforce the limit but will probably have to evict at least one resident to get the message across that rentals above the limit will no longer be tolerated. As far as the current renters go they are all nice people but don't have the respect for the property that the owners have and are the ones most likely to violate the rules, again violations that have not been enforced by the declarant. I will not make a judgement about the people renting but I will say that when we purchased we agreed to abide by the rules and that means we did not to want to live in an apartment building or we could have made that choice. JimH5, My association attempted to amend our governing documents, this particular covenant would limit the amount of renters within our subdivision (detached single family) unfortunately, that particular amendment didn’t stand a chance, and was dismissed. I understand and can some what relate to your feelings about renters and their inability to abide by the covenants, as well as the rules and regulations. I personally would mail each member (unit owner) this restriction notifying them of what will happen and when the BOD will implement such R/R. As far as the ONE person you may have to evict. Couldn’t/shouldn’t you provide the unit owner until the end of the rental contract? In other words NO automatic renewals! Notifying all until owners that the renting of their unit will NO LONGER BE PERMITTED WITHOUT PRIOR PERMISSION, if permission isn’t requested and therefore, isn’t permitted they will face strong legal ramifications. They will also incur any and all legal expenses. Just a thought. Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

GeraldT4

Posts:932

07/09/2008 6:50 AM
Posted By BrianB on 07/08/2008 9:51 AM i always like hearing that the renters have less respect for the property than owners do, since the property IS STILL THE OWNER'S. honestly, how much respect does the owner have for the property, to rent it to bad renters? How diligent is the owner, to allow that to happen? How "good" is that absentee owner? They aren't even taking care of their property, their investment, and yet we think they are far better owners than they deserve to be. BrianB - In this particular thread of commentary I think you and I are the most closely aligned in our belief. The only, and I mean only reason I think a renting threshold is necessary is to protect the ability to achieve quorum. If 80% of owners are allowed to rent, and quorum is 25% of the owners therein lies a concern. Otherwise the owner is on the hook to make the renter comply with the cc&r's. The owner is on the hook to qualify good tenants. There are good and bad owners and likewise with renters. My belief however is irrelevant to that of each association. My belief is but one of everyone elses' in my association as well.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2008

07/09/2008 8:03 AM
Gerald, I don't want to ruffle feathers Gerald but I must propose a different aspect of this renter issue. I for the life of me can't see where Quorum has anything to do with renters, other than to observe that maybe the reason you have a quorum problem is because you have too many folks that have a different agenda when it come to responsibility of the association. This little incident that happened may 30 minutes ago seems to speak to some of this, who is thinking about what. I live in a condo on the Ocean, fulltime for close to 19 years. I usually walk around the complex ofton daily, and I want go into how many times I walk around has a protective purpose. A bed shread was lying out on the deck that all these places sit on. We have a underground garage, a deck where all entranceways go into 6 buildings, a total of 65 units. All common property. I noticed outside a ground floor unit a floral bedspread, very ornate, fluffy and quilted. I asked the renters if it belong to them, they said yes, I asked why it was lying out on concrete. They said they had taken it to the beach that afternoon and it got wet and dirty and now it was drying. Our beach, although acreting at this time is not the whie dry sand beach you see in pictures. I told them to remove the spread, put it into dryer and moved on. A view from the renters. This am I was going to go to breakfast at a golf club cafe and this requires I go over some of the area as noted. Ground floor, two large units rented by friends, I hope. In front of those units were 22 plastic chairs, some large potted plnts, assorted junk and six or eight huge brightly colored innertubes. Next to this place was a one bedroom, occupied by owner and family but usually rental. I joked with owner of this unit I think I will take a picture of this mess at the two units and put it on the internet as a sales incentive to showcase our lovely condos. This owner doesn't have a clue about where his responsibilities reside. He mentioned he just wished they wouldn't do it when he was in his unit. I responder to him, that may be all well and good for him but this was my backyard 24 hours a day, every day. Old, old story, but, I would suggest that all owners look at the whole story, but nothing on the horizon indicates any change. I don't think it passes the minds of some absentee owners that the picture is really different if you look close enough. I tried for all these years to restrict total % of renters. I couldn't do it, I could not get any bank or government agency (FHA) to restrict loans because of % rental property, State, County, etc, will not touch it. I believe our covenants could, in a court of law, have some weight, if, there was owners support, which will not happen.

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1301

07/09/2008 12:25 PM
Robert from what you say is happening I do not believe the problem is so much the renters or the absentee landlords but your BOD's failure to enforce the CC&R's.

GeraldT4

Posts:932

07/09/2008 1:23 PM
RobertR1 - Achieving votes from owners that are not living in the association may be harder than achieving votes from those living in the association. In other words, a risk that quorum may not be achieved. Further to quorum is the risk that a vote that requires a high percentage of owners may be harder to achieve with absentee owners.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2008

07/09/2008 6:20 PM
During my time here for 18 years, our BOD's were made up mostly of absentee owners that rent. We have gone from 10- 15% rentals to 65%, or more, rentals or absentee owners. What chance do we have of effecting a change now? In fact, this association I bought into is no loonger the association that exists nd I doubt can get better. Truth is the conditions are much more favorable they we keep changing into God knows what (and no one really knows for sure); than conditions are favorable to going back the other way. That's the fact and as for me, I am just sad is some aspects because I have given so much time and effort and have to face defeat.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2008

07/09/2008 6:40 PM
Gerald, I am all for lowering votes needed for Quorum, because in case of a complete filure of the internal management of the regime, the documents still prevail and if decisions have to be made to dissolve or make changes or amendments quickly, a large Quorum will prove detrimental. Those living in the association can be almost threatened to step forward and in any case it will be to their benefit anyway, and that would be evident.

GeraldT4

Posts:932

07/10/2008 7:17 AM
RobertR1 - Based upon your post "We have gone from 10- 15% rentals to 65%, or more, rentals or absentee owners. What chance do we have of effecting a change now?", it seems you validate there is a difficulty in achieving quorum due to a higher percentage of absentee owners. That contrary to your post that for the life of you, you can't see where Quorum has anything to do with renters. Lowering quorum threshold is a method to permit fewer owners to make changes that affect many. A method I believe is insidious, and am adamantly against. But that's just my opinion.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2008

07/10/2008 2:07 PM
Answer to # 1: Little or none Gerald. I don't think I validated we had trouble making a Quorum, we handle that like 90% of folks do, we get assigned proxies. Now that I disapprove of. I suggest Quorum should be lowered so that the associations business can be conducted in a routime fashion and with some degree of swiftness in an emergency. I suspect those that rent property as absentee owners do no attend, in general, as many home owners meeting as other folks, I am positive of this if the Meeting date falls on a date they have a rental for the unit. As far as allowing few people to make changes that effect many, Gerald, I think that is what we do now anyway. Make no mistake, your opinion counts 1, as mine does, and the way it should be. Don't hold it against me Gerald, I am full of Contraryiness. Only fun I have left, but maybe that will change and I can discover fun in all the wrong places.

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