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BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

05/17/2008 7:43 PM
sorry mary, didn't answer one of your other questions: How would i feel if someone else knew my personal info/delinquincy. well, that's hard to tell, since i have never been delinquent. since 1992, when i bought my first HOA share, i have never missed a payment. never bounced a check (that was my fault... Banc One goofed up once, however, back in the 80's), never missed a mortgage payment, so, i have no frame of reference for not paying one of my debts. However, in other arenas, i have no problem with people knowing much about my finances. I don't care if you know how much money i make where i work, or how much money i have in my 401(k), or in my savings/checking/CD's. it really doesn't matter to me if you know what i paid for my car or truck, or how much my electric bill is every month, or even what i bought my house for, or what i sold my other one for (of course, that's public knowledge anyway). there's nothing you can do with that info to harm me, so what do i care? so, should i be late with paying, i think i wouldn't mind my neighbor saying "Hey, i was looking at the books, and see you missed last month. Did you forget or something?" I might be embarrassed, but that's my fault, not his, so... maybe it would remind me to pay up!

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:1742

05/17/2008 8:51 PM
I think a valid reason for requesting that information is to see if the elected leaders or those running for office are following the rules.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1562

05/18/2008 6:51 AM
Brian, You are a real character! You've done a very good job of reinforcing my argument, too. Regarding your last remark: "Lastly, as for "what would i do if i knew": It all depends. I might offer the neighbor some help, or advice. Perhaps i know they have some problems, and my helping hand here or there could be enough to get them over a hump. Maybe i could mow their yard once a month, so they have $20 for the association dues rather than give it to a lawn service. Or i trim their bushes out front, so the fines stop accumulating. or, perhaps i would STOP helping them, if i found out that they were using the pool without paying, i might stop giving their kids free swim lessons, etc.. I must admit, mostly it is simply prurient interest, to know who is stealing from the rest of us. i am human, after all." "Prurient (meaning lustful???) interest" -- translates into plain nosiness! Be careful, your neighbor might tell you he doesn't need your help and he really doesn't need you prying into his business. LOL

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2299

05/18/2008 6:59 AM
Brian wrote--"I must admit, mostly it is simply prurient interest, to know who is stealing from the rest of us. i am human, after all." THANK YOU Brian for being the first one to admit this and that just might be the reason for the original post. Human nature? We all want to know the whos and how muches but the majority keep that curiosity held back.

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

05/18/2008 8:02 AM
lol: Mary/Donna I gave it my best argument, and must admit i have no more to argue! they certainly got weaker as i went along!

SidneyP
(Florida)

Posts:269

05/18/2008 8:09 AM
Not only was our President 2 months late paying her dues but our secretary was 3 months late, she paid up at the Annual meeting....If I hadn't received a copy of the delinquenties no one would have know, the Board had done nothing, she just waltzed in and took her seat. At the meeting I told the PM that she could not vote, who in turn told the secretary, who then paid.....This is exactly why HO's should be prevy to this list....In our case it is our Board members who are some how exempt from violations, commercial truck, satelitte dish being seen from the street, etc...Many of you ask, "why do you want that list", what do you intend to do w/it?"....The above shows exactly the why and the what.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:499

05/18/2008 8:30 AM
Sidney, I don't completely agree with you. I don't believe delinquency information, by name, should be given to just ANY homeowner who asks for it. First, I think that the governing documents must clearly state that being current on dues or assessments is a necessary qualification for board membership. While I think this should be the case, I don't believe some HOAs are actually set up this way (maybe most). This is because some HOAs allow non-homeowners to be elected to the board. This may be for a good reason (ie, to elect someone with expertise that homeowners may not have), but most often the lack of such a requirement is left over from the days when the developer filled the board seats by people of his choosing, generally not homeowners. So, being current on dues did not apply. This does not mean that CCRs or bylaws cannot be amended to include this requirement, just that, normally, you would inherit them without such a requirement for qualification for board membership. Now, given that being current on dues IS a qualification for board membership, then I think that the proper way to handle this is for the board, or the membership, however you choose to set it up in your bylaws, should elect ONE homeowner, in good standing, to review all the candidates on the ballot for election to the board. That member, and that member only, would be allowed to verify that all the candidates are current in their dues, and to certify to the membership that the candidates are qualified to be elected to the board. That individual could have information pertaining to the candidates for the board only; not information regarding any other homeowner.

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:499

05/18/2008 8:33 AM
This has been an interesting, and spirited, discussion. Just look at all the posts! :-)

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:321

05/18/2008 8:51 AM
Don't your docs allow for interest to run on the late assessment and the $25 fine? Ours do and in addition if a lien is filed the owner is charged for the attorney's "intent to lien" letter, the cost of filing the lien and the lien is not released until all the costs are paid as well as the assessment.

SidneyP
(Florida)

Posts:269

05/18/2008 9:30 AM
The State gives me and all HO's the right to view these docs and as a shareholder of this corportation I will always feel it is my right and will do so. Our community is in such bad shape financially, I'm not sure we can pull out of it. Our delinquency problem just keeps getting bigger and bigger because this President has placed us in such a bind by hiring a MC that charges us double what we were paying. We have NO money to go after delinquents (we haven't even got the $75. for the intent letter, let alone the $325. for a lien....Since HO's have never been told anything about our finances (they never ask either) they don't know the mess we are in. It has been talked about many times on this forum, that maybe the HO has an illness, lost a job and is really in a bind...Then we have the investors who keep their unit rented and just flat out refuse to pay. By know their name and address helps me define who is just a deadbeat, stealing services from their fellow neighbor or a HO in need. I can look on the tax record and see that this person may own 4/5 investment properties....They have the money just want to keep it. I want to know who's lawn I am mowing, who's house I am pressure washing, who's house I am treating for termite control....so you darn right I want to know who that person is. We have never had a Board or MC that has been aggressive in collection and to this day have no written collection policy....I believe the more HO's know the more involved they will become. The more communication, the more a HO feels they are a part of a community...

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1223

05/18/2008 1:17 PM
Sidney unfortunately you get what you pay for or in this case what you don't pay for. The homeowners certainly seem willing to put up with it. You mentioned that you have a lot of investment owners who do not pay. If your BOD has the ability to pass rules and it's allowable under FL law I would consider requiring them to include something in their leases to the effect of if the homeowner becomes delinquent with their assessments then the Association can collect them and any past due amounts directly from the tenant and the owner must credit the money paid by the tenant as rent. In other words if your monthly assessment is $150.00 and the H/O is delinquent and the BOD collects the $150.00 from the tenant directly then when the tenant sends the owner his rent minus the $150.00 the owner must credit it as if the tenant paid him in full.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1562

05/18/2008 1:33 PM
Posted By BrianB on 05/18/2008 8:02 AM lol: Mary/Donna I gave it my best argument, and must admit i have no more to argue! they certainly got weaker as i went along! Thx, Brian! I really wasn't trying to wear you down! But, never underestimate the power of a woman -- and you were up against 2! LOL BTW, how much do you have in your 401K and how much money do you earn each year? Oh, and what did you say you do for a living; and what kind of car do you drive? I know you own your own home; how much did you pay for it? Do you still have a mortgage; if, so, how much is it for? Any credit card debt? If I left anything out, please feel free to just add it on. LOL (You asked for it!!!)

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2299

05/18/2008 1:49 PM
MAry, You forgot to ask Brian what his credit score is. Okay Brian, Sorry, I had to give it one last jab. It won't happen again, Donna

BruceF1
(Connecticut)

Posts:499

05/18/2008 2:52 PM
Brian, You have my sympathy!

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2299

05/18/2008 3:11 PM
Bruce, Your turn's coming

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

05/18/2008 5:14 PM
BTW, how much do you have in your 401K and how much money do you earn each year? Oh, and what did you say you do for a living; and what kind of car do you drive? I know you own your own home; how much did you pay for it? Do you still have a mortgage; if, so, how much is it for? Any credit card debt? If I left anything out, please feel free to just add it on. LOL (You asked for it!!!) $82,000; $78,500; Safety Manager; Mitsubishi Raider; $265,000; yes, approx $260,000; No, never, i pay everything off each month; and my credit score last year was 798 - 805.

JohnM3
(Florida)

Posts:208

05/19/2008 10:17 AM
Bill: get a copy of Select Committee on Condominium & Homeowner Association Governance Julio Robaina, Chairman DATED mARCH 4 2008 PAGE 14 AND 15. lOOSLY SPEAKING IT STATES THAT hoa INFORMATION TO MEMBERS HAVE NO RIGHT NOR EXPECTATION OF PRIVACY IN THE MATTERS OF THE ASSOCIATION. Read it for your self or email to me and I will be glad to send a copy to you. But also keep in mind what was said by the moderator is right on the money. Good Luck with getting it done we used to have a monster of accounts recieveable but I the treas took action now we have less than 10 people oweing us serious money and we have set in to being a procedure to handle this problem.

JohnM3
(Florida)

Posts:208

05/19/2008 10:23 AM
Pat: What county are you in . I am in Broward County and have been the Treas for the past 10 years and my accts recieveable are very low for a HOA of 307 homes. I feel. In our monthly meeting packets from our mc they show all accounts in the arrears and we discuss any account over 180 dollars in areares. In the financial report we have a copy of the TOPS Ledger on Accounts payable and recieveable. My email is electricjack2003@yahoo.com. Further I intend to float a motion tonight to allocate funding to buy the foreclosed homes in my development.We have a Firm who does all of our liening and bad payers chasing. It costs us nothing what so ever. There name is LIENCO. The only time we pay is when a home goes into Bank Foreclosure. Thats usually $100 to $500 per unit.

JohnM3
(Florida)

Posts:208

05/19/2008 10:26 AM
Pat send me an email I will be glad to tell you what we did and do. electricjack2003@yahoo.com

JohnM3
(Florida)

Posts:208

05/19/2008 10:32 AM
Excellent ideas we use them all except the part about the coupons from possible vendors we are in Florida and need I say any more. I also do the budget and we use a mailing company to print fold mail out monthly invoices. We say nothing about people oweing money as that starts a ruckus thats a real pain. Also the other reason we say nothing about that issue is if people think we are ripping them off they come to meetings and find out for themselves exactly what is cooking in the area of spending versus the actual budget we try hard to stay within.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1562

05/19/2008 12:49 PM
Brian, I can't believe you answered those personal questions! You know I was joking!!! Of course, you could have said anything. How do I know you told the truth? LOL

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

05/19/2008 1:30 PM
not a problem mary, i knew it was a joke, but i also knew that there's nothing "private" about all those numbers. that stuff's not really all that personal or private. Salaries are public knowledge for many people, and certainly not a private matter even in most companies. In my previous company, i would bet that thousands of employees knew the salaries of others, all from official "company" sources. Heck, even the most private of documents, your personnel/discipline files, were open records to hundreds of employees across the company who had no "business" to know. My mortgage is public record, my car ownership public record, how much i paid are matters of public record, and my 401(k), savings accounts, checking account, credit card monies, even my credit score are absolutely not private. thousands to millions of people have access to those numbers. there is no privacy anymore.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1562

05/19/2008 6:43 PM
Posted By BrianB on 05/19/2008 1:30 PM not a problem mary, i knew it was a joke, but i also knew that there's nothing "private" about all those numbers. that stuff's not really all that personal or private. Salaries are public knowledge for many people, and certainly not a private matter even in most companies. In my previous company, i would bet that thousands of employees knew the salaries of others, all from official "company" sources. Heck, even the most private of documents, your personnel/discipline files, were open records to hundreds of employees across the company who had no "business" to know. My mortgage is public record, my car ownership public record, how much i paid are matters of public record, and my 401(k), savings accounts, checking account, credit card monies, even my credit score are absolutely not private. thousands to millions of people have access to those numbers. there is no privacy anymore. Brian, I know what you're saying; however, discounting anything that is a matter of public record, I like to think that the average Joe Citizen is NOT privy to my financial info at least. I know the people at the bank and those he works with at the company where our investments are held all know, but they don't go around telling anyone and don't provide the info to anyone. Heck, I don't even want my children to know how much $$$ I have in the bank! Perhaps some company's are lax about keeping salaries confidential; my husband never worked for such a company. Even when he worked for the Fed Govt (a very short period of time) that info was confidential. Co-workers may have known what grade you were, but didn't know what step. So, they may have had a ball-park figure but not the actual salary. Maybe I'm being pollyannaish about this, but I like to think my neighbor isn't going to announce to the world how much my husband's 401K is worth!

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

05/19/2008 7:41 PM
i know we would like to think that our info is held privately, but honestly... look at how many computer dumps have occurred just this year of credit information, bank information, and government information. Entire school districts lose their data on a disk to a car thief, banks lose laptops with millions of customer info. I just got a notice from Lending Tree that one of their employees had been selling information and passwords INTO THEIR SYSTEM to loan companies, allowing thousands of people access to every loan application filed through lending tree for a decade. Every credit bureau employee, every IRS employee, and every CONTRACTOR that they hire to input data has access to your file and information. Every credit card employee has the same. THink of it this way, how many folks in Bangalore or Delhi have access to your credit files, banking files, computer files, from their help/service desks? And in a country where the median income is less than $10,000 year, how much of a bribe do you think it would take to get one of them to research or disclose info? With IRS records being outsourced to minimum wage data entry companies, how safe do you feel your tax return is? The US government, Homeland Security, is data mining everything you produce, and of course, we can trust that no bureaucrat in a government agency will ever lose his laptop full of your data, or sell it to some private company, etc.. officials in Oklahoma allowed open access to the entire county employee database, including social security numbers, bank account numbers, payroll numbers, etc., because EVEN AFTER THEY WERE TOLD, they refused to correct an 8th grade computer/web error that allowed anyone with a browser to mine their data. i think it's easier to believe that everyone already has the data on me, and be surprised when someone doesn't.

HiltonL
(Florida)

Posts:3

07/22/2008 11:54 PM
I need some more info on this topic, My problem is the attorney for the ass0cation is being a bully, because I complain to BBB, ATTORNEY GENERAL AND STATE LICENSING OFFICE ABOUT THE WAYS HE TRY TO BULLY THE HOME OWNERS. SINCE HE REFUSED MY PAYMENTS BY SENDING BACK MY CHECKS AND NOW HE IS TRYING TO FORECLOSE ON MY HOUSE,

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1223

07/23/2008 12:48 AM
Posted By HiltonL on 07/22/2008 11:54 PM I need some more info on this topic, My problem is the attorney for the ass0cation is being a bully, because I complain to BBB, ATTORNEY GENERAL AND STATE LICENSING OFFICE ABOUT THE WAYS HE TRY TO BULLY THE HOME OWNERS. SINCE HE REFUSED MY PAYMENTS BY SENDING BACK MY CHECKS AND NOW HE IS TRYING TO FORECLOSE ON MY HOUSE, Hilton a little more information is needed here. Generally speaking once a homeowner gets to a certain point in the collection process it becomes an all or nothing situation. I know that sounds cruel, but too many people will try to make a payment or two to stop the foreclosure and then stop paying. Or they will negotiate a payment plan and fail to live up to it and then request it again. The Association should have a written collection policy which they must follow and I doubt that your account got to this point easily or that the attorney is arbitrarily picking on you. All of the States laws are different on this matter as are Association policies but in mine for instance it would take you a minimum of not paying your assessments for 5 months to get to this point. Florida has strict statutes regarding foreclosures and it is my understanding that it cannot be started for anything except nonpayment of assessments. My advice to you is to contact an attorney to protect your rights and property and my questions are: How many months behind are you? Did you ever default on a repayment plan with the HOA?

RobertB20
(Florida)

Posts:21

08/01/2008 8:29 PM
Can an HOA take away ammenities from home owners that refuse to pay their quarterly assesment once they are deliquent such as the swimming pool, tennis courts,exercise center. We are slowly becoming a welfare HOA the majority paying for the minority that refuses to pay???

GlenL
(Ohio)

Posts:1223

08/01/2008 9:58 PM
Posted By RobertB20 on 08/01/2008 8:29 PM Can an HOA take away ammenities from home owners that refuse to pay their quarterly assesment once they are deliquent such as the swimming pool, tennis courts,exercise center. We are slowly becoming a welfare HOA the majority paying for the minority that refuses to pay??? If your documents allow it you can suspend use of amenities after a hearing and voting privileges if the member is 90 days in arrears. 720.305 Obligations of members; remedies at law or in equity; levy of fines and suspension of use rights; failure to fill sufficient number of vacancies on board of directors to constitute a quorum; appointment of receiver upon petition of any member.-- (1) Each member and the member's tenants, guests, and invitees, and each association, are governed by, and must comply with, this chapter, the governing documents of the community, and the rules of the association. Actions at law or in equity, or both, to redress alleged failure or refusal to comply with these provisions may be brought by the association or by any member against: (a) The association; (b) A member; (c) Any director or officer of an association who willfully and knowingly fails to comply with these provisions; and (d) Any tenants, guests, or invitees occupying a parcel or using the common areas. The prevailing party in any such litigation is entitled to recover reasonable attorney's fees and costs. This section does not deprive any person of any other available right or remedy. (2) If the governing documents so provide, an association may suspend, for a reasonable period of time, the rights of a member or a member's tenants, guests, or invitees, or both, to use common areas and facilities and may levy reasonable fines, not to exceed $100 per violation, against any member or any tenant, guest, or invitee. A fine may be levied on the basis of each day of a continuing violation, with a single notice and opportunity for hearing, except that no such fine shall exceed $1,000 in the aggregate unless otherwise provided in the governing documents. (a) A fine or suspension may not be imposed without notice of at least 14 days to the person sought to be fined or suspended and an opportunity for a hearing before a committee of at least three members appointed by the board who are not officers, directors, or employees of the association, or the spouse, parent, child, brother, or sister of an officer, director, or employee. If the committee, by majority vote, does not approve a proposed fine or suspension, it may not be imposed. (b) The requirements of this subsection do not apply to the imposition of suspensions or fines upon any member because of the failure of the member to pay assessments or other charges when due if such action is authorized by the governing documents. (c) Suspension of common-area-use rights shall not impair the right of an owner or tenant of a parcel to have vehicular and pedestrian ingress to and egress from the parcel, including, but not limited to, the right to park. (3) If the governing documents so provide, an association may suspend the voting rights of a member for the nonpayment of regular annual assessments that are delinquent in excess of 90 days. (4) If an association fails to fill vacancies on the board of directors sufficient to constitute a quorum in accordance with the bylaws, any member may apply to the circuit court that has jurisdiction over the community served by the association for the appointment of a receiver to manage the affairs of the association. At least 30 days before applying to the circuit court, the member shall mail to the association, by certified or registered mail, and post, in a conspicuous place on the property of the community served by the association, a notice describing the intended action, giving the association 30 days to fill the vacancies. If during such time the association fails to fill a sufficient number of vacancies so that a quorum can be assembled, the member may proceed with the petition. If a receiver is appointed, the homeowners' association shall be responsible for the salary of the receiver, court costs, attorney's fees, and all other expenses of the receivership. The receiver has all the powers and duties of a duly constituted board of directors and shall serve until the association fills a sufficient number of vacancies on the board so that a quorum can be assembled.

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