Who owns our road? Need input from small associations > HOA Forum

Unanswered

Active Topics

Forums

Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions

Subject: Who owns our road? Need input from small associations

Prev Next

You are not authorized to post a reply.

Page 2 of 2

Author

Messages

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1591

02/26/2008 11:42 AM
the roads were dedicated to the association, so the association owns the roads.

LauraR2
(West Virginia)

Posts:41

02/26/2008 11:53 AM
I think Brian is right. The confusing thing is that there is no deed to the roads per se, just what is in the R&RC (which is recorded in the Deed Book). Also we don't pay property taxes on the roads.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:1908

02/26/2008 12:05 PM
Laura and Brian, I find the below interesting. I Googled Law Distionary and lookied up: dedication n. the giving of land by a private person or entity to the government, typically for a street, park or school site, as part of and a condition of a real estate development. The local county or city (or other public body) must accept the dedication before it is complete. In many cases there are "dedicated" streets on old subdivision maps which were never officially accepted and, in effect, belong to no one. The adjoining property owners can sue for a judgment to give them the title to the unclaimed (unowned) street or property by a quiet title action or request abandonment by the government which did not accept the street or other property. See also: quiet title action This may not be germane to what we are talking about. I just don't know. I am not trying to be a "right fighter" here. I can see a developers lawyer using this "dedicate" term if he felt he needed it in the future. Now I'm starting to see devils behind all the trees.

LauraR2
(West Virginia)

Posts:41

06/12/2008 12:59 PM
I hope no one minds me resurrecting this old thread. I found some new relevant information I would like to share (and get input on) regarding who owns our road. Further in our R&RC, it states, "Grantor shall grant and convey to the Association, and that latter shall take and accept from the Grantor, the Common Areas, not later than 60 days after 100% of the total lots subject to this Declaration have been conveyed to an owner by mortgages, judgment liens, or similar liens or encumbrances. The Common Areas shall be the roadways and walkways enclosing the common area on recorded subdivision plat of *** ** [development]." I am not even addressing the insurance issue in this post. Can someone help interpret the above quote? To me it sounds like there is a deed or something official that needs to take place. All of our lots have been sold but the Developer is now out of business! Has anyone else gone through this process? The people at the courthouse weren't very helpful, unfortunately.

KirkW1
(Texas)

Posts:686

06/12/2008 2:05 PM
You may have to get a lawyer to resolve it once and for all. But I wouldn't worry too much about it if all you are talking about is the roads. As for the insurance, you can get liability for the association regardless of what they own. The road itself probably can not be insured and you will simply have to maintain reserves to deal with repairs.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1562

06/12/2008 5:02 PM
Posted By LauraR2 on 06/12/2008 12:59 PM I hope no one minds me resurrecting this old thread. I found some new relevant information I would like to share (and get input on) regarding who owns our road. Further in our R&RC, it states, "Grantor shall grant and convey to the Association, and that latter shall take and accept from the Grantor, the Common Areas, not later than 60 days after 100% of the total lots subject to this Declaration have been conveyed to an owner by mortgages, judgment liens, or similar liens or encumbrances. The Common Areas shall be the roadways and walkways enclosing the common area on recorded subdivision plat of *** ** [development]." I am not even addressing the insurance issue in this post. Can someone help interpret the above quote? To me it sounds like there is a deed or something official that needs to take place. All of our lots have been sold but the Developer is now out of business! Has anyone else gone through this process? The people at the courthouse weren't very helpful, unfortunately. Laura, What normally happens is the developer deeds, to the assn, all the common areas at the time of transition to the members. If the developer did not do this b/4 going out of business then the assn doesn't own the common areas and this alone could open a whole new can of worms! If the board is unable to research this matter alone, I would suggest contacting an attorney. The board needs to find out who owns the common areas and where to go from there. There is one thing mentioned in the quote that is confusing. It says "the common areas shall be the roadways and walkways enclosing the common area. . ." If the common area is only the roadways and walkways then what is the "common area" they enclose???? The board needs to find out about ALL the common areas; not just the roadways and walkways. Contrary to what Kirk says, I believe it is a matter to be worried about, even if "only" roads are at issue. Roads are very costly to maintain and may be contained in a parcel that is subject to property taxes.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:1908

06/13/2008 4:59 AM
Laura, I suppose this has all been considered, but, be sure you have copies of all the original transer of the deveoper to the association. I read this as saying when the turn over is complete papers (includng deeds, descriptions, surveyors results and a physical description the the land , among other pertinent papers) has to be recorded in the court house (city or county) Check also your state business filing and see how your association is listed. Make a formal request for these papers or to be allowed to copy anything the court has on your association, if your name is on it, you can have a copy. IF the apporiate courthouse don't respond go to county administrator, or city manager and if that fails go to councils of city and county. It is not a good idea in my mind to let this hang. However, I have certainly run across competent people who would take the same attitude as Kirk, so don't neglect his viewpoint. It does make some sense to not go looking for problems and it may turn out you will never have to deal with them. If you would be aware of these papers and not abide by them is not good, and the same stands if you suspect there is a problem and don't address it, it can bite you at some point.

LaverneB
(Florida)

Posts:121

06/13/2008 6:19 AM
Laura, I am BOD pres. of our assoc. we are having are roads re-paved after 30 years. Our roads are private and the assoc. is paying to have them done.I live in a small community of 216 single family homes. Having kept private has its draw backs such as this, we supply our owm signs, police can not ticket for running stop signs, etc..As far as insurance that the assoc has for all our place, including the road area which is in reality "common ground" hop ethis helps some. I am in the state of Fl

LaverneB
(Florida)

Posts:121

06/13/2008 6:19 AM
Laura, I am BOD pres. of our assoc. we are having are roads re-paved after 30 years. Our roads are private and the assoc. is paying to have them done.I live in a small community of 216 single family homes. Having kept private has its draw backs such as this, we supply our owm signs, police can not ticket for running stop signs, etc..As far as insurance that the assoc has for all our place, including the road area which is in reality "common ground" hop ethis helps some. I am in the state of Fl

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:1540

06/13/2008 9:47 AM
The developer of our land dedicated the entire subdivision, ie. roads, water system, community center, outlots, etc in 1927 to the residents, who then formed a HOA not-for-profit corporation. We take care of all the roads and bridges - the county won't have them because they are non-compliant (one lane bridges), roads not wide enough, so we are really "stuck" with them. Liability insurance for all corporation properties covers all properties owned by the HOA. Just watch that you put nothing in the right of way for cars to hit (large landscaping rocks, etc.) Form a Road Committee and get them passable and constantly maintained - that is your obligation.

SandyC
(West Virginia)

Posts:18

06/14/2008 9:16 AM
We are a small HOA (12 homes) in West Virgina and our insurance covers BOD's, water drainage area, small wooden bus stop (even though the school does not recognize it - builder put it up) and the road (which is about 1 mile long). We were told the road is the responsibility of the HOA (ex: resurface, snow plow)

LauraR2
(West Virginia)

Posts:41

06/14/2008 7:47 PM
This is a really huge can of worms. Apparently there are property taxes to be paid. They come due July 1. The developer is still on record at the assessor's office so that is where the bill will be sent. The developer is out of business. Then where will we be?!?

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:1540

06/14/2008 8:19 PM
Property taxes are the responsibility of the owner. That needs to be cleared up, first. But what do you (or will) own that you will need to pay taxes on? The roads will not be taxed; if the HOA owns a platted land lot, that may get taxed. And you can appeal the taxes in front of the Appeals Board, if you are taxed on anything. But I am confused as to what exactly is being taxed?

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:1908

06/14/2008 8:59 PM
Laura, Susan is right, you may be right, I am confused and this thread appears to not end. I quote, "Appartently there are some taxes that will have to be paid." If it is evident to you (apparent), what are these taxes on? I suspect those taxes were paid last year. Did the developer pay them? If you all took over this property by deed recorded at the court house, you will pay them. There is also the appeals route and as suggested, if the tax people can't tell you who is responsible for the taxes, how can they send a bill. If they sent you a bill ask them to show you ownership of the propoerty and deed with description. Maybe the way to go is wait until July and someone gets a bill, then get on line and trace the property through the court house records. Take everything in hand and appeal if you want.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1562

06/15/2008 8:27 AM
Laura, I know it can be confusing wading through all the responses to one's post. So, just to recap: In my initial response, I suggested: 1) Find out who owns the common areas. If the board is unable to do this then hire an attorney to do it. The developer should have transferred title to the common areas to the assn., but may have gone out of business b/4 doing so. 2) Find out exactly what "common areas" means. You quoted your docs as saying "common areas shall be the roadways and walkways enclosing the common area". There must be more than just the "roadways and walkways" comprising the common areas. 3) The common areas may be subject to property taxes, especially if comprised of more than just "roadways and walkways". Resolving this issue should be top priority with the BOD.

SallyL
(Colorado)

Posts:13

07/30/2008 9:21 AM
how do you find out if your association roads are insured,and what roads are in insured.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:1908

07/30/2008 9:36 AM
Sally, I would open this question in a new thread. In short, you ask your association, you look at property records to see who owns what roads. Ask someone involved in the operation of the association like a member of a grounds and roads committee.

SallyL
(Colorado)

Posts:13

07/30/2008 10:37 AM
nobody knows anything in this association.what i do know is we all pay dues for road maintenance,snow removal,etc.we believe that means all roads shown on plat map.they believe a curtain road is not for all to use just lot owners on that road.but it does get plowed in the winter,and graded in the spring

EllenS1
(Florida)

Posts:321

07/30/2008 10:53 AM
Laura, Contact the city or county to learn who owns the streets. We are 101 townhomes and employ a managment company wo have isurance that covers our commmon elements, liability and of course D &O insurance for our board.

MaryA1
(Arizona)

Posts:1562

07/30/2008 11:20 AM
Posted By SallyL on 07/30/2008 9:21 AM how do you find out if your association roads are insured,and what roads are in insured. Sally, IMO, the assn ins would only cover whatever proprety (common areas) that is owned by the assn. If assn use of the roads is granted thru an easement then they most likely are not owned by the assn and are not covered by assn ins.

You are not authorized to post a reply.

Page 2 of 2

Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Who owns our road? Need input from small associations

ActiveForums 3.6