annual budget

Started by BethS1 • 21 replies • 1475 views

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BethS1 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

We are new members of t.s.p.o.a. I WOULD NEVER BUY INTO ANOTHER ASSOCIATION. Our board does as it pleases with a very loose set of standard rules restrictions and covenants. The board is to submit and discuss the proposed budget with the members 30 days prior to the budget vote, giving members time to submit any changes etc. to the president.
In our case the board submitted a budget and finding after this proposed budget, that an assessment needed to be changed to a fee for legal reasons. So they added a fee to a NEW budget . We were told to disreguard the first budget and only the revised one will be voted on. This caused us to loose the 30 days allowed prior to the voting for review. The budget was passed. I feel the budget should be overturned and that they should go back to the prior years budget and submit a new budget for the year comming. We had started a petition over this new budget but ran out of time (we did not have 30 days) when presented to the president he said that not enough members signed for him to even consider looking at it and disreguarded it entirley. Can we the members have this budget overturned based on the lack of the 30 day ruel?
bethS1

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

It is unclear if your 30 day rule was followed for the FIRST proposed and then revised budget presented by the Board to the members for approval. But it sounded like it passed with the proper vote.

In any case, the bylaws should tell you how to recind or amend budgets. If you have 30 days to get the signatures, then you must follow that rule. The presient was within his power to refuse any petition that did not follow the rules.

Try again.

PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347

Posted:

BethS1: The budget was sent 30 days prior as dictated; then a 'revised' budget was sent with an added expense. The new budget was voted on....and passed! IMO, your 'vote' gave the authority to accept the new budget.
Why did members vote to pass the new budget if they were not in agreement with it?

SidneyP (Florida)
Posts: 302

Posted:

I am confused about the Budget. I was under the understanding that the HO's did not vote on the Budget that this was a Board decision....Our Budget was passed at a Board meeting Dec. 29th and NO member has ever even seen it or knows what's in it. Guess we will get a copy at the "Presidents" March meeting. Our fiscal year starts in Jan.

BethS1 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

Hi Susan,
The budget must be received prior to march 1st. Ours came on the 7th.
The second one came March 29th.

(The low down)
Our house is around a 90 some acre pond. We are over 500 members.
Only about 125 border the pond, the rest of us are lucky to have lake rights. The board added an assessment for treatment of plant life etc. to be removed from the pond. This is a $288,800.00 project. They had to change this to a fee to get it in the budget (legal reasons)
We are to have 30 days to review and ask questions> our voting is done in April. We did not have 30 days. the petition was signed by 89 people, more would have if we had our 30 full days. Members on the water front started a phone chain to get the yes votes in. Out of 500 some odd votes 116 said yes the other 89 (petitioners) voted no.
Many members did not vote simply because they were unaware of the new budget. Their own fault for not opening their mail, they assumed that since they had already voted on the budget so most did not enen look at the second mailing.

BethS1 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

Hi Paul,
Our first one came march 7th (not prior to March 1st) the next one the 28th We vote on April 21st. No 30 days there. 116 said yes 89 no .
About half of the 500 some odd members half are summer get aways, investment homes. We , the other half live here full time.
205 votes came in shame on the members. all of the 89 members had no idea what the board had done until they were spoken to on an indviual basis, by me home to home. They all thought that since they had voted once the next mailing was misc. and did not look at it .
Again shame on them .
leSSON HERE OPEN AND READ EVERYTHING SENT BY THE ASSOCIATION.

BethS1 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

Hi Sidney, we have what we call the "blue book"
it has all our restrictions covenants rules etc.
Check with your office and ask for a copy of yours.

See what our board did? do not let this happen to you too.
Talk to your neighbors and ask them if they are aware of your rights as an owner? Start asking questions at the monthly meetings, and keep informed.

We petioned to have the lake fee removed from the budget. They hit us with a 15 percent increase first then this lake fee was added to the mix. This is now an annual budget item as long as the board wants it to be. That is what we were trying to avoid. This year we are looking at another 10 to 15 percent increase. COME ON!
When we first moved in to our home 4 years ago the dues for our size lot was $739.00 It is now over $1300.00. for this we get trash pick up once a week, community well maint. and snow removal. And now pretty pond.
THe homes on the water go for over $400,000.00 the homes with lake rights go for $200,000.00 about. The lake lots are smaller and pay less than the members with lake rights.

My home we have to pay over $1300.00
my home may be worth $200,00.00
a typical home on the water front Going for Over $400,00.00
pays only around $900.00.
This was the reason for petioning the budget. Our dues are only $27.00 less than our town taxes, something wrong here.

You should make sure but I would think that on some legal note your board must present a budget to it's members .
Im in N.Y. maybe laws are different in your state.

SusanW1 (Michigan)
Posts: 5,202

Posted:

If that lake "dies" how much will your home be worth?

It is in EVERYONE's interest to keep the lake privileges and access in the very best light; this increases everyone's property values.

You are a member of a community, and while I understand your feelings that the "outlotters" are taking care of the "lakefronters" property, in reality, the lake belongs to everyone in one form or another.

However, that $288,000 price tage seems kind of high. I hope hearings and bids and outline of the entire project was presented to the members before the approval.

PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347

Posted:

BethS1: Your concern is well taken. Four years after a move to your lake property, fees have increased to almost double--from $739 to over $1300.

Question: Are you saying those residents in homes on the waterfront pay lake fee of $900 and those at lake front pay $1300? If the lake is common property and for use of all residents, then why isn't the fee to maintain the lake divided equally among all residents?

The Board must follow the documents, and, be responsible to find a way to bring in the necessary funds to cover expenses--hence, the increase in fees. What does your Blue Book state regarding repair/maintenance/upkeep of the lake as a common asset and expense item for all? Has the lake always been part of the area from original purchase or, has it just now been made the responsibility of all association members?

PatrickH (California)
Posts: 204

Posted:

Beth,

Weird question here, but since March isn't even here yet, how could you have received the budget on March 7th? Are you looking to go back and change last year's budget ten months later?

BethS1 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

most Lot sizes are 50 x 150 some own more than one. most lake fronts are 1 lot . I own two lots no where near the lake. The lake front owners pay a lesser amount than most all of the other owners no where near the pond. I am a quarter mile away can't even see it I pay a much higher amount. The fee covers trash and snow removal and a water system. with an added lake fee on top. I pay more because I have two lots. $1300.00 For 150x100. MY point exactly ,the fee should have been equally devided by number of owners not number of lots owned by each member. That was the reason for the petition to remove the lake fee from the yearly budget. The lake was here and made larger. 90 some odd acres of pond known as Robinson Pond at Browns Dam.

BethS1 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

Hey Patrick
Yes I am , last years budget our fiscal year goes from July 1st to June 30th, our next 2008 2009 budget will be presented to us soon and at our monthly meeting on Friday they said they are looking at at least ANOTHER 10 percent increase. even if the next budget fails they still have all the cash they need with the present budget. so yes We trusted the board to do the right thing and they designed the budget to the benefit of the water front owners. I was told only friday night by the attorney Who only represents the board not it's members, That if that was the case and we did not have the time allowed we could try to persue it. So here we go .

thanks
beth

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Beth,
I think that you are incorrect in your idea of how your assessments are figured.

You are very incorrect in your statement that fees should be divided by the number of owners, not the number of lots. When the subdivision was originally divided up, every lot is a seperate entity. You have 2 entities. You are entitled to 2 votes---one for each lot. Therefore you owe dues or fees on 2 lots, even if they are joined and you use them as one.

So--Lake lots pay $900.00 and you pay $1300.00 divided by the 2 lots equals-- $650.00 per lot OR less than you claim per lot. The Lake lots are paying $250.00 more than you are.

I am sure that you are aware that there is special maintenances to care for the lakes therefore they do have a higher fee cost.

BethS1 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

They only got 1 bid and because they were in such a rush to get started they did not persue any other bids. Nice.
If the lake/pond dies my home will NOT be affected at all. I have an added value of a couple thousand only because we are called a private community. The homes on the pond however would drop close to half in value if the pond were to "dies"

Hey I'm all for keeping the water nice but at what expense? We have so many other issues that need to be addressed. Our roads are falling apart Our water system needs repairs almost every other week, etc. there are a lot of things happening here.

Actually New York state ownes the pond our association ownes the property around it. Another reason why I think the way I do.

Thanks Susan, one good thing, I have had a chance to talk to you and the others, all input is appreciated and well taken. and maybe even helpful in some way for all .

Beth

BethS1 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

Hi Donna,
No I only have one vote and my neighbor who owns four lots only has one vote the reason I feel the Fees should be devided that way. I under stand the dues vary but the assessments should be devided equally. Dues are based on lots owned and i should pay for two and I do It's the assessments for things like the pond, streets, etc. that need to be devided by number of members not lots. Sorry if I lost you.

YOu would think That you would have a vote for each lot owned but that is not the case here.

Thanks for helping.
Beth

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Sidney,
You are correct in the statement that your members do not vote on the annual budget, This is a Board action and that is stated in our Statutes 720. Some states require the membership to approve the Budgets, but Florida does not. But you are required to see the Budget 14 days prior to the Budget meeting as every member should have been mailed a copy of it for reviewing. This is another item that Boards flub up on because they don't know the Statutes. How bad is that.

PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347

Posted:

BethS1: When a development is filed as a 'community association', resident members are accorded voting rights which also coincide to the number of units/lots owned--the same is true for assessment fees. Therefore, for owners who made the decision to purchase 2 lots/units, you also made the decision to pay fees twice!!!

I asked if entire lake upkeep and expense was just newly added to the assn. budget. If the lake has always been part of what you 'bought into' at purchase, you had to know that down the line that fees would escalate. Same as other expenses, everywhere, with or without a lake.

Hopefully, buying into a unit surrounding a lake offers the amenities you
were hoping for, but amenities come at a high price, and prices
are bound to go up-p-p! Unfortunately at present, real estate value is not increasing to offset the high rate of living expenses. Now, if you can get rid of the lake and the water system which are costing big bucks....that's another story.

So, we are all in the same boat.....but not necessarily on your lake!!!

BethS1 (New York)
Posts: 9

Posted:

HI Paul, sorry Yes the lake fee is new to the budget.
My lots are attached so we do not pay twice just a little more for the second one. Thats only the dues. We pay more for the lake fee than a property owner on the water front.

The association will not allow owners with the required amount of property by the b.o.h. to put in their own well. Or we would have when we bought.
The lake was a plus but not a had to have for us that is why I said I would never buy in an association again. We love our neighbors and the schools ok too This WAS afforable and we are like many other home owners every where "stuck".

Our president told me if i can not afford to be here, move, this is not the answer the answer could be something like lets do things in the best intrests of all members not just a few.

Thanks again
Beth

PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347

Posted:

BethS1: I would encourage you along with other concerned residents to investigate ..."Actually New York state ownes the pond our association ownes the property around it." Contact the State authorities, parks, recreation or some such department to learn of the deed and what responsibilities one has when they 'own' a pond. Find out also if the ownership would include the water system. Whoever owns either, it is THEIR responsibility for expenses.

Now, if your association has AGREED to maintain the ground 'SURROUNDING' the lake amenity (which NY State owns), then that is what fees should be calculated for and paid for. Only what is the association's responsibility and no more.

Further, check out the common ground and 'lake ground' listed in your Declaration as common expenses for all residents to contribute to. Review if there is a percentage difference in payment between lake front owners and waterfront owners. (I still do not understand this...)

TomS11 (Florida)
Posts: 29

Posted:

Dear beth,
point by point
you will probebly find that the thirty day rule is just part of procedure,not toallow members to vote on a budget.that is for the bod to do.
ammended budgets are commonplace for factors unseen or new.
what exactly what you pettioning for and was the pres.required to consider any thing and did the prttion require a certain number of sigs. to be effective?

you and your group to to make a difference mustbecome fully informed members. study and understand your docs. as well or better than the pres. then if your group has issues the pres. must agree that your group has valid points. if not get rid of them by voye or recall.

as for the lake you will probebly find that though it is owned by the state,your assoc. is responsible for its upkeep, thats why the state loves planned communities, they collect taxes and you provide the services. welcome to the world of planned communities. i like you will never move into another assoc. the built in advantages are negated by irrisponsible uneducated board members who most of the time serve on the board to serve thier own egos, and its realy a shame assoc. have the potentail to be so much more .
good luck beth

SidneyP (Florida)
Posts: 302

Posted:

Thanks, Donna but can you point me to exactly where the SS say HO's should be sent the Budget for preview 14 days before the Budget meeting...I have read the SS over and over, just can't find that statement...All I found is "the association shall provide each member with a copy of the annual budget or a written notice that a copy of the budget is available upon request at no charge to the member. The copy must be provided to the member within the time limits set forth in subsection(5)"....I found that to only state the the time the Association or MC had to get this to the HO..the 10 days from request.....I want to make all my ducks are in a row before Imeet w/the PM.

DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671

Posted:

Hi Miss Sidney,

The statements are in 720;306 (5)
(5) NOTICE OF MEETINGS.--The bylaws shall provide for giving notice to members of all member meetings, and if they do not do so shall be deemed to provide the following: " The association shall give all parcel owners and members actual notice of all membership meetings, which shall be mailed, delivered, or electronically transmitted to the members not less than 14 days prior to the meeting. Evidence of compliance with this 14-day notice shall be made by an affidavit executed by the person providing the notice and filed upon execution among the official records of the association." In addition to mailing, delivering, or electronically transmitting the notice of any meeting, the association may, by reasonable rule, adopt a procedure for conspicuously posting and repeatedly broadcasting the notice and the agenda on a closed-circuit cable television system serving the association. When broadcast notice is provided, the notice and agenda must be broadcast in a

And 720;303 under BUDGETS
2) BOARD MEETINGS.--

(a) A meeting of the board of directors of an association occurs whenever a quorum of the board gathers to conduct association business. All meetings of the board must be open to all members except for meetings between the board and its attorney with respect to proposed or pending litigation where the contents of the discussion would otherwise be governed by the attorney-client privilege. " The provisions of this subsection shall also apply to the meetings of any committee or other similar body when a final decision will be made regarding the expenditure of association funds" and to meetings of any body vested with the power to approve or disapprove architectural decisions with respect to a specific parcel of residential property owned by a member of the community.

I have both of the sentences in quotes and seperated for you. I hope this helps.

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