KevinJ1
(Florida)
Posts:51
 |
| 01/12/2008 2:53 PM |
|
| I'm a licensed electrician/condo owner and i've been doing some volunteer repairs for my association,the P.M. complained to the B.O.D. that i was not covered by workers comp. can the B.O.D. have volunteers sign wavers releasing the association from any liability.Also as a owner do i need workers comp to repair my own property (common elements) when i owned a house i did'nt need workers comp to work on my own home....Anyone with knowledge of any statutes or recomendations would be appreciated....Thanks Kevin.... |
|
|
|
|
SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5202
|
| 01/12/2008 4:08 PM |
|
The HOA was wrong to let anyone perform work - much less electrical work - on a volunteer basis. The liability is just too much!
|
|
|
|
|
RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:4686
|
| 01/12/2008 5:10 PM |
|
| Kevin, your PM is correct. The BOD can have volunteers sign waivers however this does not absolve the HOA from liability. Common elements are not the same as your own property. Either you or the HOA should carry workers comp. |
|
|
|
|
DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
|
| 01/12/2008 5:57 PM |
|
Kevin,
Are you self employed as an electrician? All that I can tell you is that Florida requires licenses and insurance to do your type of work in the State but volunteering is not applicable. That is a very nice thing of you to do, to save money for your association but the P.M. is correct in her statement. Waivers usually would not hold up in a major lawsuit. |
|
|
|
|
KevinJ1
(Florida)
Posts:51
|
| 01/12/2008 6:55 PM |
|
Posted By DonnaS on 01/12/2008 5:57 PM
Kevin,
Are you self employed as an electrician? All that I can tell you is that Florida requires licenses and insurance to do your type of work in the State but volunteering is not applicable. That is a very nice thing of you to do, to save money for your association but the P.M. is correct in her statement. Waivers usually would not hold up in a major lawsuit.
Donna,I'm a licensed electrical contracter,but i'm a Qualifying agent for an electrical company.That means the owner of the company does not have a lisence so i use my lisence to Qualify his company. So does that mean the B.O.D. should have workers comp. ins.on them. Are you speculating that i need workers comp..or is that fact....I know for a fact that a home owner can pull a permit and do any work on his own home without being licensed or having workers comp.how does that not apply.I'm an owner,I own atleast part of the common area..Does not me being licensed to work on electricity in itself reingiush the association from liability.how could i prove neglagence on the association ifi got hurt volunteering to work on electrical equipment i'm licensed by the state to work on electricity.does anyone know who has jurisdiction over such a thing,...thanks for the input and let me know if you know who i could contact.thanks |
|
|
|
|
DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
|
| 01/13/2008 6:00 AM |
|
Kevin,
You can call the workmans comp office and ask them if you can "self insure"
That would solce all of the problems. Doing work inside your own unit is not an issue here but once you pick up the tools outside of the unit, you are then considered a contractor and are not insured. |
|
|
|
|
RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
|
| 01/13/2008 6:25 AM |
|
Kevin,
From working with this repair problems in our condos for years I know how much an electrician is worth to the association.
Maybe you can cut through the crap since you are licensed. If the Board don't pay to cover you with any insurance you need, they are missing the Boat.....big time. Be a contractor on hire from the Board. Do the work submit your bill and charge them ten dollars a job.
It appears to me this is not a problem that can't be solved. Does the Board know how much an electrician charges for his work? I wish we had an electrician owner and a plunber owner and a landscaper owner, and Handyman Owner, etc, etc, etc, that was willing to do what you are offering.
To the Board, if you had an Insurance Owner willing to tell you how to insure this man, your problem would be solved. Shame on the PM for not working this out. |
|
|
|
|
KevinJ1
(Florida)
Posts:51
|
| 01/13/2008 11:24 AM |
|
| HEY GUYS ,GALS,in your oppinion would the association be covered under florida statute 768.1355 (1) this is the volunteer statute...in my opinin the association would be covered.please read and let me know your opinion...thank you for your advice..Kevin |
|
|
|
|
KevinJ1
(Florida)
Posts:51
|
| 01/13/2008 12:01 PM |
|
| http://www.escambia-emergency.com/CERT/FSSCERT.pdf....just incase this link will take you to the web site....its the florida volunteer protection act.. |
|
|
|
|
DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
|
| 01/13/2008 12:20 PM |
|
Kevin,
Well here it is for everyone to review. I will reread it again but it seems to release responsibility from the association.
768.1355 Florida Volunteer Protection Act.--
(1) Any person who volunteers to perform any service for any nonprofit organization, including an officer or director of such organization, without compensation, except reimbursement for actual expenses, shall be considered an agent of such nonprofit organization when acting within the scope of any official duties performed under such volunteer services. Such person shall incur no civil liability for any act or omission by such person which results in personal injury or property damage if:
(a) Such person was acting in good faith within the scope of any official duties performed under such volunteer service and such person was acting as an ordinary reasonably prudent person would have acted under the same or similar circumstances; and
(b) The injury or damage was not caused by any wanton or willful misconduct on the part of such person in the performance of such duties.
1. For purposes of this act, the term "nonprofit organization" means any organization which is exempt from taxation pursuant to 26 U.S.C. s. 501, or any federal, state, or local governmental entity.
2. For purposes of this act, the term "compensation" does not include a stipend as provided by the Domestic Service Volunteer Act of 1973, as amended (Pub. L. No. 93-113), or other financial assistance, valued at less than two-thirds of the federal hourly minimum wage standard, paid to a person who would otherwise be financially unable to provide the volunteer service.
(2) Except as otherwise provided by law, if a volunteer is determined to be not liable pursuant to subsection (1), the nonprofit organization for which the volunteer was performing services when the damages were caused shall be liable for such damages to the same extent as the nonprofit organization would have been liable if the liability limitation pursuant to subsection (1) had not been provided.
|
|
|
|
|
MikeS1
Posts:0
|
| 01/13/2008 1:56 PM |
|
| Attorneys will tell you that a waiver may not stand up in court. |
|
|
|
|
KevinJ1
(Florida)
Posts:51
|
| 01/13/2008 2:10 PM |
|
| Donna,i also think FL. statute 718 covers insurance of home owners also if you read FL.STATUTE 718,111 (11) WHATS YOUR OPINION ON THE STATUTE...THANKS KEVIN |
|
|
|
|
DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
|
| 01/13/2008 2:55 PM |
|
Kevin,
The 718;11 part on an association may have liability insurance for association employees, in my opinion does not relate or cover you doing volunteer work unless you were a hired employee. BUT!!! I am not a lawyer so I would seek an expert opinion. The volunteer statute looks more like your situation but here again, I am not a legal person. |
|
|
|
|
SusanW1
(Michigan)
Posts:5202
|
| 01/13/2008 4:55 PM |
|
I doubt that the "volunteer" activity covered in this protective law is the same as a person performing electrical services by a licensed contractor i.e. up-to-code work requiring professional installation.
|
|
|
|
|
LindaC3
Posts:0
|
| 01/14/2008 7:35 AM |
|
| Is a HOA or COA Not for Profit the same as NONPROFIT ? I know in our HOA ANY work such as electrical, plumbing, or other types of construction REQUIRE a permit, inspections, and a Licensed General COntractor to pull the permit..........Kevin... tread carefully with this as " someone" may report you to the local CILB and then your license could be in jeopardy...Play it safe- contact your local Building Dept and talk to the head honcho or honchoette and CYA.......... Have a good one LindaC3 |
|
|
|
|
DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
|
| 01/14/2008 7:41 AM |
|
Linda,
Not for Profit and Non Profit are very different. Florida HOA's are filed under Articles 617, Not For Profit Corporations. |
|
|
|
|
LindaC3
Posts:0
|
| 01/14/2008 7:51 AM |
|
| DonnaS......Fl ss # 768.1355 states " nonprofit" organization......I was wondering if this would extend to HOA or COA seeing how they are NOT FOR PROFIT CORPORATIONS.........LindaC3 |
|
|
|
|
DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
|
| 01/14/2008 7:57 AM |
|
Linda,
No, Your Articles of Incorporation are filed under Fla. Chapter 617, Not For Profit Corps. Ignore 768!! You could end up in a financial mess if you stray otherwise. |
|
|
|
|
LindaC3
Posts:0
|
| 01/14/2008 8:05 AM |
|
| DonnaS...Yes I know all about 617...I was making reference to the SS 768 for the volunteer aspect of Kevins' posting and doing electrical work for his COA on a volunteer basis..I was ? whether this SS would extend to cover him as he is in a COA which is a NOT FOR PROFIT CORPORATION not a nonprofit like say March of Dimes.....LindaC3 |
|
|
|
|
DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
|
| 01/14/2008 8:10 AM |
|
Linda,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I still think that Kevin would be best covered if he just got his own workmans comp.coverage. Being self employed is not costly and his license is used to cover his workplace so there are way too many factors that could come back to bite him if he tried to save a few bucks on insurance. Better safe than sorry. |
|
|
|
|
LindaC3
Posts:0
|
| 01/14/2008 8:17 AM |
|
| DonnaS.......My husband is a self employed plumber and therefore under Fla law is allowed to be workmans comp exempt....Even though by law he can install a water heater in someones house and knows how to wire it..he still has to hire a licensed electrician to do the wiring and WE WOULD NEVER hire an electrician that is not covered by workmans comp......Can ya seeing him/her getting fried in an accident ? The homeowner and my husband would both be subject to a lawsuit.....KEVIN...this question is for you.... how did your COA handle electrical repairs before you moved in ? Are you recieving work tickets from the COA to perform this work on the common areas ? LindaC3 |
|
|
|
|
DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
|
| 01/14/2008 8:20 AM |
|
Linda,
The thing that scares me about Kevins situation is that he works for a company and they use his license as the covering license. I would hope that who he works for has Comp?? This is complicated. |
|
|
|
|
KevinJ1
(Florida)
Posts:51
|
| 01/20/2008 6:03 AM |
|
| Hey, I just finished reading a copy of the contract our association has with our management company and it reads..(REQUIRED INSURANCE by ASSOCIATION)....workers compansation insurance according to the state statutory limits covering all employees,subcontractors or volunteers of the association with employers liability limits of not less than 500,000 each accident for bodily injury......So with that in our contract it should be ok for a volunteer to perform duties that one is licensed to do and performes every day...Does anyone else have a contract that reads like ths with a management copmpany..or is that unique...thank you.. |
|
|
|
|
PaulM
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:1347
|
| 01/20/2008 6:36 AM |
|
KevinJ1: Hey, hey....What 'anyone else's' contract from another state may allow them has no bearing on Your Assn.'s contract or Your State of Florida's requirements.
You have posted that you are a licensed electrician doing "Volunteer" work for your assn. but you carry no workman's comp. insurance. The PM should certainly know the specifics of the 'contract' between them and your assn. and exactly what is required, but you are questioning the position they are taking.
Other Floridians acquainted with contractors have advised that workman's comp is necessary and, available for a minimal cost to you! It is commendable that you want to offer your professional services. Why not go that route so you can be act as a valuable asset/resident who wants to freely serve their community. Have you investigated getting insurance?
|
|
|
|
|
KevinJ1
(Florida)
Posts:51
|
| 01/20/2008 7:05 AM |
|
| Paul,workers comp ins. in Florida is very expensive a few years back FL.passed a law that you have to be incorperated to be comp exempt and thats just officers of the board also you cant buy insurance for just 1 person they sell it for 5 or more.But if the association carries workers comp for volunteers and the FL.volunteers statute relieves non profit org from liability .I would agree that the PM should know the contract that was signed but believe me the contract does not evan state the amount of employees to be provided and according to FL. STATUTE 718.A contract is not enforcable if the amount of employees to be provided is not listed.We have a very bad Management company and the PM is only on property 6 times year and the secratary is there all the time and the secratary does not know and is not licensed to do PM work,,so everyone thought the secratary was the PM. until i informed evan the board that the PM is the lady that comes 6 times a year and that the lady on property is only a secratary. So thats why i questioned investigate what the Management company says.They have been missleading everyone including the board for 3 years...kinda like the blinde leading the deaf and blinde.. |
|
|
|
|
PaulM
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:1347
|
| 01/20/2008 7:32 AM |
|
KevinJ1: For what its worth...as a community assn. resident, I, personally, would NOT want the Exec. Board to allow a 'professional' resident to do electrical wiring which would impact ME, if they or the assn. was not following requirements and regulations.
As an experienced, licensed electrician, I cannot for the life of me see why you want to place yourself in a position which could easily come back to bite you--Big Time!
But, as recently noted, you are now on to another topic...
|
|
|
|
|
RobertR1
(South Carolina)
Posts:5164
|
| 01/20/2008 7:55 AM |
|
Paul and Kevin,
Normally I always side with Paul. I believe that if Kevin is licensed, wants to do the work at cost, and the association or the state is happy with the arrangement, I am all for it. But, you are going to run into some board members expounding on the evils of owners working for the regime and what would happen if all the owners start to do work around the buildings. I'm not licensed anything but I worked around our condo for 15 years and anything I would attempt to do in my house I tried to do for the Regime, plus a whole lot of other things. I KNOW I made this place a better place and could care less about what anyon else thinks. After 1`5 years involved in this stuff, I have seen good electricians and bad electricians, same with all tradesmen. I can call these plumbers, electricians, etc, that I trust and they are more than happy to give me guidence. Paul, maybe you have a better handle on who works at your place, but I will bet the owners haven't got a clue as to who does the work around there. Condos have a rule that you have to allow tradesmen into your unit if they are working on common property and there are times the manager has to enter all units, therefore, you have to leave a key with the manager. Mr block owns 537 unit, lives in Utah. A renter complains he has a leaky toilet. Mr. Block calls someone to fix it, tells manager to give him key, toilet man comes and gets key and enters unit and maybe fixes propblem but it takes going outside unit to clear a drain on common property, easy job, no problem. But the toilet man is on the job while he is on common property and insurred. God knows who this guy is, no one vets him. But now we have a owners that if all he says is true wwants to help and his board or PM can't find out if he is insured or not. Shame on them for not taking the time and interest to include this guy into the community. |
|
|
|
|
TomS11
(Florida)
Posts:29
|
| 01/20/2008 8:26 AM |
|
Kevin, as far as i know in florida in order to get any contrators lic. you must show that have and maintain w/c if you have employees or w/c exempt working only by yourself. any other co. that you qualify would have tohave w/c just like any one would. also any w/c policy that the assoc. might have would not be of the scope for your kind of work.If you are licenced and therfore insured just do the work,write the contract under your name like you would with any other customer and charge your assoc. a
small amount. |
|
|
|
|
LindaC3
Posts:0
|
| 01/20/2008 11:11 AM |
|
KevinJ1......I can't divulge where this email response came from ..but it MAY be of help to you...Also...my husband is a plumber and sole ownership NO EMPLOYEES...He is NOT INCORPORATED and he can still file w/c exempt as sole owner.........LindaC3
Linda, I believe he's exempt from Workers Comp in that situation by way
of F.S. 440.02(15)(d)
Employee does NOT include:..
6. A volunteer, except a volunteer worker for the state or a county,
municipality, or other governmental entity. A person who does not
receive monetary remuneration for services is presumed to be a volunteer
unless there is substantial evidence that a valuable consideration was
intended by both employer and employee. For purposes of this chapter,
the term "volunteer" includes, but is not limited to:
a. Persons who serve in private nonprofit agencies and who receive no
compensation other than expenses in an amount less than or equivalent to
the standard mileage and per diem expenses provided to salaried
employees in the same agency or, if such agency does not have salaried
employees who receive mileage and per diem, then such volunteers who
receive no compensation other than expenses in an amount less than or
equivalent to the customary mileage and per diem paid to salaried
workers in the community as determined by the department; and
b. Volunteers participating in federal programs established under Pub.
L. No. 93-113.
But what liability the not-for-profit may assume. If he is hurt....
I hope they discussed this with their Lawyer.
KEVIN NOTICE THIS PERSON MADE COMMENT WITH REGARDS TO NOT FOR PROFIR vs NONPROFIT....May have some bearing......
|
|
|
|
|
KevinJ1
(Florida)
Posts:51
|
| 01/20/2008 6:34 PM |
|
| Linda/Robert ,Thank you very much for your advice and that bit of info Linda, I truly appreciate it,I think your husband became incorperated and as an owner he is able to be w/c exempt.I was a sole proprietior in 2002 and they gave everone until 03 to get INC.that was the last year they gave w/c exempt to sole proprietiors.Most contracters put there license on inactive status with DBPR in TALLIHASSEE others went and Qualified other companies and some actualy paid the big bucks to get INC.and get w/c exempt.This was an attempt by big Contractors to put little guys outta bussiness and make them have the same overhead as the big guys.It worked and actualy it hurt the home owners because they pay the overhead that contractors have to pay..The big guys have the money to hire a crook to lobby congress (put money in their pockets) and pass laws ..But please ask your husband maybe just maybe something has changed that i have not heard about and i would be happy to hear that,,Thank you Kevin |
|
|
|
|