BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 12/31/2007 2:13 PM |
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| i have been working with the board to solve our road problems. the problem is for the last 18yrs the 75 dollar per year fee has not been raised,we have nearly 3 miles of road most of which are in grave condition. during a vote this week to use special assesment to pay for the roads to be taken over by vdot and in which i have found matching funds through the county, several of these homeowners will not give the right of way that is also needed. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 12/31/2007 2:29 PM |
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Bruce,
What do you mean that several owners will not give the right of way? They don't own the streets. If you have private roads, they belong to your association, not the individual homeowners therefore they have no right to deny VDOT.
Why has not the $75.00 yearly fee not been raised? People would rather pay a special assessment in one BIG lump? Wow! How much was the special assessment amount? |
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 12/31/2007 2:51 PM |
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| Our restrictions state that 10ft from the middle of road are reserved for the road and drainage, VDOT wants a right of way 25ft from the middle of the road. Although we have the majority that have voted yes for this capitol improvment and its fianancing unless we can obtain the full right of ways it may be useless. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 12/31/2007 3:07 PM |
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EGADS!,
10 feet must have been written into your restrictions when just horse and buggy were on those roads. 25 feet is the usual allowances from center of the road to it's outer edges. I have a nephew in Chesterfield County who is with civil engineering and he said that 25 feet is the minimum that they plan for on roadways so I would suggest that you get someone from the VDOT to write to the opposing owners, explaining that this improvement will not take away from their property. It's just a "right of way" in case they get to court on some issue with a Homeowner.
How wide are these roads right now? I cannot imagine that the road width will change greatly but just the right of way will increase . Are the sides of the roads grassy? Do you have sidewalks? Will VDOT mow? Actually, you don't want them to mow because they only do it monthly. |
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MaryN
(Virginia)
Posts:125
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| 12/31/2007 3:35 PM |
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In our community the HOA does not own the land under the roads and only has the deeded "right away"..in our deed the land belongs to individual property owners. Our roads are in awful shape(almost 40 years old)and one of our members contacted VDOT and some of our members had the nerve to contact VDOT and tell them NO WAY! VDOT decided that they were not going to do anything with our community. None of this ever went up for a vote, most of the community would gladly turn it over..now it's not a choice.
Maryb
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 01/01/2008 4:43 AM |
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| MaryN sounds like were in the same boat we are a 30yr old communitywith 55 lots in va. rural area I guess this is an attempt to get information possibly before seeing a community lawyer the estimates on the nearly 3 miles of road were 100-150 thousand dollars, half of which were going to be paid by the county through a rural roads addition fund I had estimated each lot owners 1 time special assesment to be between 900-1500 dollars and if everything including right of ways worked. this would have ended the road fund |
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MaryN
(Virginia)
Posts:125
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| 01/01/2008 5:22 AM |
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Bruce,
I'm located in Lancaster County, what county are you in? The matching funds are from your county? We also have about 3 miles of roads.
Thanks,
Mary Beth |
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 01/01/2008 5:57 AM |
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| Mary i am in bedford co. the dept of transportation sets aside 5% of it annual budget for bringing private roads into the Virginia secondary road system. These funds are available through application in your counties adminastrators office your community would beyond any doubt qualify for these funds because your subdivision was built before 1992.Go to VDOTS web site and click onto bringing roads into Virginia Secondary Road System. However this brings you to my situation i have found 50% of the funds i have gotten a majority of the vote to proceed with the formal inquries but with 8 out of 33 lots voting no means they will not give the additional 15ft of right of way needed for the project to continue.My question now is if i have a majority of the homeowners to go forth can a majority change the right of ways that are in the restrictions to give the right of way to Vdot without needing individual right of consent |
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EdieL
(Virginia)
Posts:86
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| 01/01/2008 7:00 AM |
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Majority of Counties in Va. have mandatory VDOT Specs for Subdivision Rds.
When the Subdivision Plat is recorded the county accepts either State Rds.
or Private Rds. Since early or late 80's even private Rds. have to meet VDOT
standards, which is a 50' right-a-way (25' from center line) If your plat does not
meet the 50'then you may need county help to acquire the additional right-a-way
through the states eminent domain for public easement. As a Va. developer I will
say you have a long road ahead of you working with the state and Vdot.
Edie |
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JudithC
(Virginia)
Posts:253
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| 01/01/2008 7:15 AM |
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Fascinating discussion -- we are also a Virginia community with private roads. From time to time we have looked into trying to get the state to take them over from us, and have been turned down. We have on-street vertical parking which is a no-no for Virginia roads (even though the plans were obviously approved by the county), and also they say that the roads weren't built to Virginia specs -- they allow lesser standards for private roads. I have always considered it a real deal for the local government to get associations to maintain the roads -- I am surprised Virginia is trying to get the roads into their secondary road system. I have a mile of roads I will contribute!
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 01/01/2008 7:53 AM |
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| The funds of which i have spoke of obtaining were in fact to be used to bring the roads to the minimum required for the state. If the right of ways are met and the homeowners agree to pay 50% of the cost Vdot would accept the roads into the Virginia Secondary System before construction ever begin.Using Vdot to collect these right of ways your right will not only delay the project but will drive up costs. Your community may react different as to beginning this process it poses more questions one i got this morning from 1 of the no voters who has thought it over concerns was if special assesment was used and the lien was placed on her property until paid or the home was sold could it affect her from getting a loan on her property. If any of you in va. need more info on contact to look at this option e-mail at vabrtc@ verizon.net and i will send you the steps i have taken so far. |
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 01/01/2008 8:03 AM |
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| EdieL you are right our particular plats show 10ft on each side of the road for the road and drainage 15ft for utility right of ways and a minimum building line of 50ft from the middle of the road which leads me to believe that that was included for this purpose |
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EdieL
(Virginia)
Posts:86
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| 01/02/2008 4:55 AM |
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Bruce, I am confused with your 50' building line. Plats with
a 50' road easement means 25' from center line which would equal
10' center line pavement and 15' road drainage which includes
utility right-a-ways. A front building set back line then would be a
County requirement. Here we have 30' from the road esement of 25' each side.
So putting all this together our building set back would be 55' from
center line. Does your subdivision plat have a VDOT dedication which
would have been signed by VDOT for recording?
Edie |
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PaulM
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:1347
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| 01/02/2008 5:53 AM |
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BruceC2: I am not schooled in the state regulations for roadways, but, since your roadways have to be brought to state requirements, does this mean your roads are now PRIVATE? Are the roadways listed in the Declaration as Common Expense Assets for the Assn.?
If the request/funding goes through, does it also mean the State/County will then have responsibility for the roads and the Assn. will be relieved of it?
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 01/02/2008 2:42 PM |
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| EdieL as a private road we have a deeded right of way for the road and drainage of 10ft from the middle of the road. there is a 15ft public utilities right of way on each side from the middle of the road. then there is a 50ft minimum building from the middle of the road on each. this is exactly what the restrictions and subdivision maps say and show. VDOT says they want 25ft from the middle of the road even if it means moving some utilities out of the way, however they say they would come in with the least minimum impact to the owners property. Our process right now was to determine that although we had a majority to support the fianancing and right of ways can we force the others knowing that a 50ft from the middle of the road is in the restrictons and on the subdivision maps already or our we bound by the deeded right of way in which anyone person can stop the process our only funtion as a poa is the roads once accepted by VDOT this would end the road fund and the poa would only be bound by restriction enforcement |
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 01/02/2008 2:47 PM |
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| PaulM thanks for responding i hope i was more clear respnding to EdieL if this doesnt go through it will mean if anything is done will be paid in full by the poa using only the deeded right of way |
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JudithC
(Virginia)
Posts:253
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| 01/02/2008 3:50 PM |
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Bruce,
Absent anything else I would think you would have to abide by your covenants -- after all that is why we have them. It seems like it is a taking of the property, even if for a good cause.
In the back of my head I believe the POAA has something in it about how associations can now respond to eminent domain situations without going through all the rigors of covenant restrictions. Perhaps you could get VA to "take" the land. Just a thought, they are very hesitant to do that I believe and usually just run in the other direction.
BTW, I went to the website and didn't see where there was a drive on to take our private streets into the state system. It is so easy to miss these references.
Judy
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 01/02/2008 4:49 PM |
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Bruce,
Excuse me if I get this wrong but my simple math says that the VDOT already has 25 feet from the middle of the road. There is a 10 foot drainage and a 15 foot utility easement. That makes 25 foot that you owners already have in right of way that is part of the easement/drainage system. It's too bad that there are people with blinders on and would rather travel on your much in need roadways than to sign a paper that would better their property access. |
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 01/02/2008 5:13 PM |
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| Judy, fact is Vdot AND OUR COUNTIES DO NOT PUBLICLY PUT THIS INFORMATION OUT THERE. vdot and the county can not give legal advice. thanks for helping in this situation you need all the understanding you can get right or wrong it is to get to what matters most 3 miles of road all the same |
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 01/02/2008 5:20 PM |
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| DonnaS thanks for responding but as i have come to realize as a basic there are only a 10ft middle of the road this means we cannot get 50% fianancing from our county because we have to have all property give the right of way |
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PaulM
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:1347
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| 01/03/2008 5:42 AM |
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BruceC2: Would you kindly explain what you mean by the property owners 'giving their right of way' over to VDot before they (Vdot)
will agree to take charge of your private roads? You state Vdot requires 100% of all residents/deed owners to agree, correct?
For the residents who are objecting, is the right-of-way portion in question under residents' ownership or is it Assn. common ground?
This, obviously, makes a big difference when presenting your argument in favor of turning over to Vdot. |
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 01/03/2008 2:20 PM |
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PaulM
I hope that i explained it better in special assessments area, there is only 10ft right of way deeded from the middle of the road on each side. Only after each homeowner agreed to give VDOT the additional 15 ft of right of way would they send in a surveyor to redraw the subdivision plats for the right of way. |
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PaulM
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:1347
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| 01/03/2008 2:44 PM |
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BruceC2: You still have not provided a crucial bit of info. Who owns the 15' right of way needed by VDOT? Is it each unit owner, whose individual plat plan and taxes would reflect actual land dimensions and ownership...or, is the 15' right of way part of the Assn. "Common Ground"?
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 01/03/2008 3:10 PM |
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PaulM
As deeded the right of way of 10ft from each side of the middle of the road, for the road and for the drainage is the responsibility of the POA. |
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MaryN
(Virginia)
Posts:125
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| 01/04/2008 3:44 AM |
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In our community..the homeowners own the land and the HOA has the right of way. Lawyer after lawyer who has looked at our HOA over the past 30 years...agree with the above fact.
Maryn |
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EdieL
(Virginia)
Posts:86
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| 01/04/2008 5:21 AM |
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Questions,Questions,Questions. OK Bruce, here is my take!!
In the state of Va. you have private rds, County rural rds. and Vdot rds.
Private rds., your POA $75 X 55 lots X 30 years equals $123,750. This is
not enough $$ to maintain rds. So the disrepair.
Each County has specific requirements for County Rural Rd. for County acceptance
ie: maintenence. Get **political with getting your district Supervisor involved.
VDOT requires a 50 easement and that the rds. be brought up to VDOT standards
before VDOT takeover. Once that is completed then VDOT requires a surety one year
bond to be posted plus a one year maintenence fee be posted. Again you have to get
political with your County Supervisor and the Local VDOT resident engineer.
In regards to POA/HOA, your covenants should state, if a special assessment is
needed, do you need majority of the homeowners or just a BOD vote. If just a
BOD vote then the assessment can go forward and any property owner that does
not pay, a lien can be put against their property. The key to all of this is
"The health,welfare and good of the community"
This is your political statement to Owners, County and State.
(example) School Bus pick up. Buses start at 6:00-6:30 am, Still dark, rural areas
children have to walk to bus pick up, deer, fox, all wild animals out early morning.
In addition to children being kidnapped by pasesr bys.
Good Luck, Edie |
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PaulM
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:1347
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| 01/04/2008 6:00 AM |
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EdieL & Bruce: Yes, Edie, your professional advice is well taken to work with
those in political power, Supervisor, Engineer, etc. However, IMO there's more to be done.
Bruce states VDOT will take over the private roads IF all residents "give over" the right of way. I am taking Bruce's phrase "give over" as resident agreement to CHANGE the now Private roadway to Public.
Some residents are resisting the 'giving over' to public...but Bruce has not explained resident argument for that. We know some residents are balking at the special assessment ($1500+) that would require VDOT to then contribute their portion to complete the road upgrade.
Bruce, you are speaking of a land change. The developer initially set up with the local municipality office that the Assn. roads would be privately dedicated and NOT repaired/maintained by them (but with Assn. monies). What you require is an AMENDMENT CHANGE to your existing documents. IF the Declaration states the Assn. is responsible for road repair/maintenance as a common expense asset--then you must Change the Declaration from responsibility to Association (private to public)--REMOVE the verbiage stating your road is common expense asset altogether. An HOA lawyer schooled in contract verbiage can help.
Your docs state how to make an amendment to the Declaration--it is a percentage of the total resident membership, but ALL members are given the ability to vote on it, even those in arrears with dues. You may NOT require 100% of resident approval, according to the docs, but a lower percentage to pass. And, this is important for VDOT to know.
Now, for those residents who are resisting the private road to public road
change...the $1500 special assessment to be paid by each resident will be more than made up. Once you eliminate costs of 'private' snow removal and future road repairs, your Capital Reserve Fund is minimized, as well as the regular assessment fee being reduced.
There may be another concern for some residents as well. The very idea of changing private to public may congure up, for some, visions of anyone and everyone using the road for their purposes resulting in more traffic and
parking issues. This also would require a lawyer's counsel, and your docs must reflect the 'new' change for these concerns as well.
Please post your thoughts on this plan of action and whether you have investigated from this position.
Bruce and at Public Roads Local Maintenance Responsibility. |
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BruceC2
(Virginia)
Posts:54
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| 01/05/2008 5:16 AM |
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EdieL,PaulM,DonnaS,
First of i would like to thank you all for your information,I also would like to apoligize for not being more extensive in my info from the begining as could probably tell i was new to this format. Now EdieL at the first open meeting i had with the association in Octobei had present our county supervisor who brought me a letter from VDOT. He then told everyone there how the county would help and the phases that we would have to take.The vDot letter also included this info and how to cotact and discuss with the resident engineer concerns or problems. Within two days of the meeting i was contacted by the counties attorney on behalf of our supervisor to tell me how and at what point the county would take over collections of the escrow i was also contacted by VDOT ressidential engineer who scheduled a drive through so the could see themselves the roads and drainage areas and was called back to say they saw no problems going public that money raised would be to bring the current roads up to meet minimum standards vdot would do this work or oversee the contractor.The roads would be be in VDOTS hands before construction began.The association meeting last week was to establish a quoram to formerly gather all aspects without commitment as well as see what from the vote who was going to be obstacles in the process.concerns heard was use of special assessment,increased traffic,needing the additional 15ft of owners property.It is clear now that i will have to seek legal advice as a priority,you all have given me the info to at least know what questions i will need to asking (thanks) I will keep posting this process!!! |
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CraigB1
(Virginia)
Posts:4
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| 01/09/2008 4:44 PM |
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| New to the forum but not the problems bruce. Also a bedford county POA president and understand your frustration. Would like to get your personal opinions concerning local attorneys that specialize in POAA (I have found none). |
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MaryN
(Virginia)
Posts:125
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| 01/10/2008 4:13 AM |
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Craig,
Do you attend POAVA meetings? Maybe you could ask the people who run the meeting to recommend someone. There are several CAI groups in the state...and we have one on retainer..doing legal work for us. We could not be any happier. Someone on this site gave me the name of the law firm..but I don't think that's permitted anymore. Maybe you could google CAI attorneys in VA or something like that.
Maryn |
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