Wow,,can someone help with this..big problem

HEY,I JUST BOUGHT A CONDO IN ORLANDO FL. 2 MONTHES AGO..I'VE NEVER BEEN IN AN H.O.A. BEFORE BUT I LIKE WHAT THEY STAND FOR....MY PROBLEM IS...MY CONDO COMPLEX WAS CONVERTED 2 YEARS AGO FROM APPARTMENTS...THERE ARE 8 GARAGES PER BUILDING AND THERE IS 30 UNITS PER BUIDING AND A TOTAL OF 10 BUILDINGS...80 GARAGES TOTAL...THE GARAGES WERE SOLD TO OWNERS DURING THE CONVERSION .I WAS WONDERING HOW THE GARAGES WERE WIRED BECAUSE SOME ARE OWNED BY 1ST FLOOR 2ND FLOOR AND EVAN 3RD FLOOR UNITS AFTER INVESTIGATING I FOUND THAT THE GARAGES ARE WIRED TO THE CONDO ASSOCIATION HOUSE METER AND THAT THE OWNERS OF THE GARAGES DO NOT PAY AN ELECTRIC BILL ON THE GARAGES..THE ASSOCIATION PAYS THE GARAGE ELECTRIC BILL WITH EVERONES HOA DUES,,BUT WAIT IT GETS WORSE,,I THEN FOUND OUT THAT GARAGES ARE NOT PUT ON CONDO DEEDS AND THAT AN OWNER CAN SELL THERE CONDO AND KEEP THE GARAGE AS A STORAGE UNIT EVAN IF THEY DONT OWN A CONDO IN THE COMPLEX NEVER PAYING DUES OR AN ELECTRIC BILL ..BUT WAIT IT GETS WORSE..I THINK ONE GUY ACTUALY LIVES IN THE GARAGE AND HE SOLD HIS CONDO A FEW MONTHES AGO HE PAYS NO DUES AND GETS FREE ELECTRIC.I BRUNG THIS UP TO THE MANAGEMENT COMPANY AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE HOA..AND I WAS TOLD IT WOULD TAKE FEW MONTHES TO SEE IF SOMETHING COULD BE DONE ( IF ANYTHING)BUT ITS NOT A PRIORITY AT THIS TIME... CAN SOMEONE TELL ME IF THIS IS LEGAL OR GIVE ME ADVICE ON HOW TO HANDLE THIS..THANK YOU..ANY HELP WILL HELP...

ROGER,THE PROBLEM WITH THE BOARD HANDLING THIS IS 4 OF THE 5 OWN GARAGES AND HAVE KNOWN THAT THE ASSOCIATION WAS PAYING THE ELECTRIC BILL.ALSO WHAT IS AREASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME BEFORE I TAKE THIS TO MEADIATION AND ARE THE OTHER OWNERS DUE BACK COMPINSATION FOR THERE DUES GOING TO PAY ELECTRIC BILLS OF AREA'S THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO.IN FLORIDA I WAS TOLD THAT THE BUILDING DEPT HAS TO INSPECT A CONDO COMPLEX BEFORE IT IS CONVERTED ,AND THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN FOUND DURING THIS SUPPOSIDLY INSPECTION,,, IF ANYONE IN (FLORIDA) KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT THIS I WOULD APPRECIATE THEM LETTING ME KNOW...

YES,I BELIEVE THATS THE CASE...I'M NOT 100%SURE BUT SEEMS THAT NOONE BUT THE GARAGE OWNERS KNEW ABOUT THE PROBLEM WITH THE GARAGES..THIS IS MY FIRST TIME LIVING IN A COMPLEX WITH A HOA AND I ASSUMED THAT THIS KINDA THING WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN OR ATLEAST ACTION WOULD BE TAKEN VERY QUICKLY TO RESOLVE AN ISSUE OF THIS MAGNATUDE...I FEEL BAD FOR THE OWNERS THAT HAVE LIVED HERE FOR 2 YAERS AND DID NOT KNOW..ATLEAST I'VE ONLY LIVED HERE 2 MONTHES..THING IS I DON'T WANT THE HOA TO BE SUED OR HAVE TO PAY THE NON GARAGE OWNERS SOME SORT OF BACK DUES OR SOMETHING,SO I'VE ONLY TOLD THE MANAGER AND THE BOARD MEMBERS ABOUT THIS....ONE MEMBER ACTUAL SAID...I THOUGHT YOU WERE LOOKING TO BUY A GARAGE IF SO YOU SHOULD BE QUITE....I DO WANT TO BUY A GARAGE BUT DONT THINK THAT OTHERS HOA FEES SHOULD GO TOWARD MY ELECTRIC BILL AND THATS WHAT I TOLD THE BOARD MEMBERS....EVAN IF ITS NOT ILLEGAL IT SURE IS NOT FARE FOR THE NON GARAGE OWNERS....THANK FOR ANY HELP...

Kevin, so far it doesn't appear that anyone has posted a solution for you. I'm no expert,but I'd recommend the following. I'd have the board, or the management company or SOMEONE contact the power company as soon as possible. It seems that seperate power meters need to be installed and individual (garage owners) need to be billed. Everyone gets their own power bill for their units and all garage owners need to receive a power bill, too. Don't let your board tell you that there may be nothing they can do about it.

Donna, you out there? You seem to be the Florida expert on such things. Good luck Kevin!

Hey,as you can see by my spelling and writing i'm not the smartist guy..but it only took me 10 minuites on the computer to find this forum and help from those that are smarter than i..I think alot of past and present board members have been keeping this from non garage owners. or had no idea of how to fix the problem because they are afraid to ask for help from others..i think the next thing i'm going to do is refer this site to president of my H.O.A. and hope that she takes a look at all the good info that can be obtained on this site .i'm going to call the local building ins. and code compliance dept and see what they tell me and i'll post what i find out....thank you for your help and please if any suggestions dont hesitate to write and let me know....thank you so much..

We have the same situation in our complex and charge each garage owner $6.00 mo to cover the electric, one owner keeps a light burning and a radio playing in his to make sure he gets his monies worth.

Hey Glen,thanks for the suggestion..i'm an electrical contractor and i suggested to the board that it may be fair to charge a 30 dollar a month fee to the garrage owners rather than pay what it would cost to rewire and install meters to the garages,i know my father inlaw has a condo in Astor FL.and they charge 30 dollars a month for them to have electicity to the boat houses....thats 1 dollar a day...i plan on buying a garage when one comes available and i would pay 1 dollar a day for electric...but there has to be something done about the garages being sold seperate..or not being sold with the condo...any suggestions are appreciated..thanks folks

thanks for settin him straight..he must be a garrage owner...lol

Kevin,
See how easy this is if you get some good advice?
Boards should not and cannot be responsible for everything that some people come up with in order to avoid playing by the rules. I am a firm beliver in going to the best resources first like your County and City government departments , avoiding to have our Boards do the work that has already been established in codes and laws. Good Job on your part!

Kevin.
Now that you are knee deep in condo life, make it a point to read and Understand all you documents. Believe this: the more you know about what is going on the easier your life will be, don't be half safe and only think you know, make sure you know. As an electrical contractor, if your board would turn down an offer of your expertise, you need to get to work on finding out about your Board. You sound like you would be a great resource for the Board and I hope your President does look this site over and reads what I am saying. I am sure we all appreciate all the Board members that post here. This site is also a great resource.
Look at the Discussion Topic page and upper right you will see a "search" option. This covers an awful lot of ground, and unlike a lot of Boards out there, this site allows for free and open dialoge, I don't know how, but it works.

KevinJ1

You last post sounds similar to what I (and many) have written in the past. Stay strong and continue to “fight” for what you believe will better you and your community!

I’m learning the dos and don’ts of association living, more so every year. It doesn’t get any easier either. We (BOD) are confronted with new problems every month, however I’m seeing a HUGE difference in the appearance alone not to mention the fact that my family and I are MUCH HAPPIER LIVING HERE.

I don’t believe the board can “just vote on something” and just start enforcing the rule, maybe so, but I wouldn't think so.

Perhaps others with much more experience can clarify.
Keep strong

Chuck W.

Forgot,
The board has the right to set some rules and regulations, subject to support of the community. They cannot change the State Statute, the Master Deed or your By-laws,(except for rules of conduct) without member approval. The State Statute they can not change and you are also under corporation laws of the state they cannot change. ANY changes must be made in writing and publized, and records kept. Your PM should make these changes available to you and I would insist that I be given an up to date set of Documents, from the date you moved in. If your PM won't do it, go to Board and request they make the PM do it. If they don't, send the board a registered letter asking again and request they respond in writing to your request and provide you with the missing information. If they still won't do it, go to Legal Aid and aske them what to do, maybe they will send a request. Get it all in writing and all else fails, hire a lawyer to get the information, but stick to that one thing. Cost you a little money but it will set the fact in the Boards mind, if you have a legitimate request, the will be better served if they accomodate you. But be nice about it, just like you work on your job with people you disagree with.

Kevin,

Class subject Governing Documents 101. This is how the laws and documents are listed as of their importance and

1). All Federal Laws--including Fair Housing Act, Fcc, Disabled American, and any laws that might become involved in HOA documents.
2) State Statutes and Laws
3) County Laws and codes
4) City Codes and regulations.
5) Protective Covenants of your Assoc.
6) Articles of Inc for your Not For Profit Corp( That's your Assoc. Inc.
7) ByLaws
8) Rules and Regulations

Your Protective Covenants are the ruling documents for your assoc. They were drafted by the Developer, you signed for them when you bought your property.That means that you must comply with them. They can be changed ONLY by a vote from the membership by a certain percent of the membership. That number is quoted either in your Articles or ByLaws. These are what control the ByLaws and Rules and Regs. They cannot be in conflict with the Protective covenants.

The ByLaws are also changed by a vote of the entire membership. Only the Rules and Regs may be changed by a vote of the Board of Directors.
This should make it easier to understand what you need to know for basic HOA workings. There is so much more but this will get you started in the process of what governs what.

I do not understand what the electric charge would be? Are you referring to the electricity used each time the garage door is opened and closed? That would be so negligible in the form of a charge???????

I do not understand what the electric charge would be? Are you referring to the electricity used each time the garage door is opened and closed? That would be so negligible in the form of a charge???????

Paul,
Just to mention that if you buy a garage or own a garage, your apportioned assessment should reflect this asset, otherwise the owners that don't have garages are paying for the external maintenance of these garages. A can of worms and a problem that is huge for a new Condo owner to have to sort out. He has a lot of investigating to do before he starts zeroing in on specifics. There is nothing we know that tells what all has gone on and is going on. Patience will be a big help for him, and see the job through will require a lot of conviction.

Hey,i pesonaly checked the house meter and know that the garrages are tied to it...i ask the P.M.whose paying for the garage electricity and she said every owner..i replied how is that when the garages are tied to the association electrical meter..she then give me the old chesser cat smile and said yea your right....believe me if you think this can not run an electric bill up ..just put a freezer in every garage..there are lights ,garage opener,and a 20 amp recptical per garage times 80...some people run a repair shop fixing other peoples cars in them..if this was minor or trivial i would'nt mind....evan i'm looking to get a garrage and i think 30.00 a month is fair..and i ask the same question about the taxes because the appraisers office would love to add garages to the deeds because the taxes go up...also no i cant find in what i was sold for 50.00 dollars one thing that talks about garages period..only parking spots..and parking spots are not designated to indaviduals..you can park anywhere..hey,our association pys over 55000.00 dollars a year in electricity...i found this out and decided to see what i could do because i'm an electrical contractor and most of the common area lights stay on 24/7 so i wanted to see what could be put on a timer or photo cell and let the association know how we could save 8 to 10 thousand dollars a year ..i suggested to the H.O.A. to put certain lights on photocells and i would do the work if they bought the photocells and i also told them about the garages being on the association house panel which i believe they alredy knew about..but for some reason they don't care..i don't understand why..also our budget is aruond eight hundred thousand dollars a year..yea i have dues of 360..00 a month..i don't mind paying as long as i'm getting somthing out of it ...thanks guys hope this helps some..

Hey,thanks Linda...hey my president tells me we are a C.o.A. not a H.O.A. can some one tell me the difference she says ita alot more strict and complicated..but where can i find the statutes and info on a C.O.A. Hey,Linda I'M in SEMINOLE County and i'll be talkig to the building dept this week..thaks for your help..

Kevin, you live in a condo and your condo association is governed by Florida Statue 718 (condo asociations). Single family homes are governed by F;orida Statute 720 (homeowner associations). They are similar, but separate regulations because condo ownership is a little different than single family homes. Google Florida Statute 718, and you can print it out, and read it. All condo associations have to abide by these, together with your condo recorded bylaws and covenents. Find those, and read them, too. As for your President saying it is a "lot more complicated", not. I am reading your post with interest, and like how you are motivated to solve your problem. Keep us posted.

Hey,i want to thank both of you guys for all your well needed advice and knowledge..I called the Seminole County Tax Assessers office today and they are very eager to help get this mess cleaned up.When they started checking deeds and did not see garages,I don't think theylike that,although they did caution me that they may have heard of something happening like this before,they said something to do with the garages being a common area..so i ask when it would be my turn to park my car in the garage since my C.O.A. dues pay for the electric bill too.they laughed at that, and said a superviser would call me back on wednesday.but they also gave me the phone no# to the land sales mobile homes and condo sales division that governs condo's.after speaking with them they said they would at no charge to me send the entire 718 statute covering C.O.A. they also suggested they mail me a a division complaint form so an inspecter can officially inpect the Perspectus condo docs and official records of the association to see if it is legal..the website is at www.myfloridalicense.com click (direct to our division)and then go to land sales condo's and mobile homes to download any forms..but i still don't know how this is not against my constitutional rigts..how can the association make me pay for something that i dont get the privaledge of using..is this not non garage owner discrimination or is it garage owner favertisim....i'm not sure but i o know that my prospectus,condo bylaws or rules and regs do not mention a garage anywhere in them period...also i think the C.O.A is more owner friendly..they suggest that the association and the owner do a volinteer meadiation and a lawyer from the state mediate the meeting for free because they say the owner can't take on the C.O.A. and take on the fees that would be required to be payed...so i will keep you guys updated as soon as i hear from the county and state ofices...once again thank you very much for your help and knowledge...thank you Kevin

KevinJ1: Hey, great news! You are making exceptional progress with your investigation. You have finally found an ally with the tax assessor's office, especially if the tax base is involved over whether anyone 'owns' or just 'rents' the garages.

It is still imperative that you study your docs. For you to "not be sure" if garages are mentioned is not a position of confidence for you. I can't stress enough how important it is for you to know what your documents state, especially prior to the 'inspector' looking over the docs on the assn's behalf.

The fact that this assn. is a 'conversion from apartments' 2 years ago, causes me to think someone dropped the ball re assn. document specifics, and its finally going to be brought to light. Take your time, step back and let the authorities now do their stuff. Consult also with the local municipal office because the docs had to be recorded by the developer with them. Keep current and continue to present a concerned and grateful manner with the authorities--
together you will come to the truth! This is a great testimony to the local authorities, assn. resident/s, posters, etc. can work together to get to the bottom of things.

Don't forget us when you have finally resolved all the issues. We like to hear good news!!!

Kevin,
Loss the idea that square footage is used to set your fees (apportionment) Elsewhere recently we have addressed the reason the apportionment (what you pay each month). All these apportionment figures are required to be filed in court house and also the original filed with your Board. Look at those numbers and then see what each unit pays/month. The fact that this is a conversion leaves the gates open foir all kinds of shenanigans. To repeat again, the apportioned number are set when the value of each unit is FIRST DETERMINED BY THJE DEVELOPER. This figure will be the first sale price offered on each unit. It makes no difference what it is now. You add up the value of all the properties (units). You devide this number into the figure that the unit sold for. This will give you the apportioned figures and they will end up to be 100%. That means each individual owns that portion of the whole and his fees will reflect the value of his property. If someone dropped those garages out of the real property (all the property), you have a confusing situation which you already know. Give this post to your board, see what they say. They need to get this straight and they are responsible because they are privy to this information. This is not any attempt to usurp the Board, it is just my opinion and I am comfortable to state it.

For you Kevin: To even consider that somehow these gararges weren't considered when the place was built and reflected the unit prise is not how to look at this. They are there, they add value to the whole, no one gives away garages, it't property, it has to change hands unless it is destroyed and even then the land has value.

Hey Carol,thanks for the input,but thats the problem.i can't find one mention to a garage in any condo.document that cost me 50.00 dollars.so to be on the safe side i certified a letter requesting any and all amendments,addendums and changes to any and all prospectus,bylaws and rules and regulations....the condo floor plans clearly show attached garages on the blue prints,but as i said no mention of the word garage.also i'm filing a request for inspection of the garages with the florida land sales,condominiums,and mobile homes..i hope by them not mentioning garages in the condo documents that they become part of the unit,since the garages ar owned by owners...but yes right now all insurance is being paid for by the association on the garages..evan though they are attached to the units and can be entered thru a door from the unit...thank you for you advice and if anyone has some more advice or suggestions please keep it coming..thanks kevin.

Kevin,
Above you state: You can't find any mention of a garage in your documents.(You paid $50.00 for them, we get it). Do you have any listing at the end of your documents that reference "Exhibits" or attachments? You probable have a section that says something like "Description of property and it will reference where this information is on file in the court house. Copy this section and take it with you to the courthouse.

Then you say the condo plans clearly show attached garages (where did you get those Plans? Are they really plans or just artists renderings?

Then you say you are going to send (I assume) the board a certified letter requesting they send you this vast array of documents. They are likely to ignore you or go out and hire a lawyer or start paying the one they have by the hour. That will only cost you money. I suggested you go to the court house and review all the documents on file there. This costs very little if anything and tells you a lot more than what you know. I would assume the legal process you started will grind it's way through this mess but in the meantime, try and build bridges with your Board. You both have to realize there is no enemies involved here. You may have to demonstrate where your interest comes from. They may consider you a trouble maker. That is no problem really because your actions should always demonstrate your loyalty is to the association, not to the individuals elected. Respect, courtesy, honesty, you owe the board, you elected them.
Don't fight to prove yourself right, fight because of your loyalty to the Community and the real fact that you signed some agreement that you would support the association by being involved.
It appears in you case the process has started. Monitor what is happening and maybe push to keep it in the forefront as it goes along.

Offer the white dove to the Board and discuss how the association is going to handle this. Offer to help. Request a meeting with them with mutual benefits on the agenda.

Keep records of everything you do and make sure everything you do is legal and visable to all. You are starting to pick up bits and pieces of information, put all this down in a log and how you obtained the information. Go to courthouse, you will be pleased with all the stuff you will find, copy the good stuff and make files.

Kevin,
I read you posts, all of them. You also posted that you were going to get resolution from the state. I also suggested you go to the court house and learn about your association.

But much more than all of that, when you resolve this garage issue, the world don't stop and all is bright and shiny new. You will still have to deal with your association. It will have a lot of the warts then as it does now. Don't make your job harder and feel you solved all the problems. If what I read from your posts is true, there are going to be some very unhappy people around there and unless you are moving you are going to contribute to to restoring order. Make friends, not enemies, do not go around shoving this down someone's throat, unless you agree to be part of the solution.

Kevin, it matters not who selected the Board anymore than it mattters if you move from one state to the other and didn't elect your representatives.
I'm not against you seeking court resolution, you have to make tha decision. But know what it means when you do it, and it will probably turn into a fight of attorneys and cost a bundle. Get the mess straightened out, if possible, in house. Right, wrong, makes no difference your association will have to pay, in one way or another, protect it all you can, it will still be there when this is settled.