CCRs

I have been fighting my BOD on CCRs parking issue. They decided to change the CCR. They had a vote last week. The amendment did not pass. Now the BOD is going to have another vote because of they said that they did not get enough votes.
Here is the breakdown.
45 memebers
18 in favor of amendment
13 opposed

I think we need 50% plus 1 to pass. So it clearly did not pass. Is it legal for the board to go get another vote? Can they do this over and over again?
Jill

Jil - There were actually 27 "no" votes. A non-vote is always counted as a "no" vote. Unless your documents call for counting only those in attendance or who voted.
Most documents require a certain percent of ALL owners to change the CC&Rs. To change CC&Rs is seldom 50% plus 1. Do check your state laws for how frequently an HOA can call for another vote if one was not approved. Harold

I have not found anywhere that states a "non vote" is a "no" vote. Where can I find that? the issue is over parking a midsize truck in our driveway. The CCR's only state storing in not allowed. I don't store I drive it on a daily basis. Not only is it only 45 homes, we are on half acres and our driveway would fit 8 vehicles. We have 3 cars and 3 drivers. they want it parked behind the fence. We dont have room behind the fence because that is where we STORE our RV. I paid a $100.00 fine and have IDR tonight. I hope that we get somewhere. We shall see.
Thanks
Jill

It does state in the CCR's under "Rights of Institutional Mortgage Holders that it is 67% to vote in favor to amend" Does that count? I do not find anything else except in the civil code that says 50% plus 1 in favor.. Im sooo confused. The board does state in a letter that is going to homeowners that the majority was for it so the "prudent" thing to do is to revote.. I say sour grapes..
Jill

Oh, and our CC&Rs do not give any restriction on the number of times something can be "re-voted" on, so if they have the resources, they can vote on this every month if they want to.

No, unfortunately, I would disagree. They are the same.

If you are "parking" it in your driveway overnight, for a few hours, over the weekend, you are "storing" it there until you need it/use it again.

This isn't about splitting hairs.

"storage" has not built in timer. Once you place something in a location until you are to use it again, you are "storing" it.

One can also park there, sure, but the interpretation is valid.

JillC - Either way, 67% or 50%, your HOA BOD did not get the necessary percentage to amend. I agree with you on the distinction between storage and parking, and your comparison that if you are storing your vehicle, so is everyone else.

"A non-vote does not count for anything." It sure does! We weren't talking about quorums. I don't know why you brought that up. When a certain percentage is required to amend CC&Rs, a non-vote definitely has an impact because it certainly isn't a "yes", so has to be a "no." So you believe the percentage required to pass is based on those who bothered to vote? Wrong. Harold

When we took the vote there was a check "yes" or "no". the fact is that 14 members chose not to vote so the amendment did not pass. The board is chosing
to revote because they have made this a personal issue. They have made it clear by telling us that "your truck is different" The fact is that we moved in without these restrictions we were one of the few that read the CCRs before we bought. Have parked here for 4 years and have been harassed for almost 3. We have had several conversations with attorneys. We have been told that we have a very strong case. We just need to decide if we want to pay thousands to defend our rights. It just wrong that a BOD can do what they want to whomever they want and get away with it and we as homeowners have to pay money to defend ourselves. Thanks for everyones imput. It really helps to know we are no insane.

Jill,
Would you please send us the statement from your CC&Rs that states about storage of a vehicle? Also, I think that I am believing that storage is not the issue here but a TRUCK being parked. Send us the covenant on truck parking so we can really figure this out. These statements are what count and I think that we are missing some information here. Thanks Jill

Gerald,
I own a rental in a 55+ community and am chair of the Documents committee there. We did a short study on how amendments have done within the last 14 years of the community's exhistance.
There have been 21 proposed amendments proposed to the membership at different times. There are 230 homes. 13 amendments have passed with votes just over 67%, which is our requirement and 8 have failed because of lack of voting. We have a consistant 15 to 20% who never vote.

A couple of times, these 15 to 20% votes would have been enough to pass some very important items that were desperately needed for amending but these people just did not seem to grasp what their non vote meant.

So we now have a new plan. The Docs committee goes door to door with the amendments in hand and explain why we need each and every vote. The checkoff list is from the votes that have not shown up in the P.M.s office so we just have the no shows to visit. We just passed 3 very important amendment changes and had (3) THREE missing votes. Perserverance and hard work will always win out.

Gerald,

Below is what a quorum must be consisted of--in Florida and it basically the same in every state with exception to the percentage. It says that----

1) QUORUM; AMENDMENTS.--

(a) Unless a lower number is provided in the bylaws, the percentage of voting interests required to constitute a quorum at a meeting of the members shall be 30 percent of the total voting interests. Unless otherwise provided in this chapter or in the articles of incorporation or bylaws, decisions that require a vote of the members must be made by the concurrence of at least a majority of the voting interests present, in person or by proxy, at a meeting at which a quorum has been attained.

It says that a quorum is 30 percent of the TOTAL VOTING INTEREST and must be IN PERSON OR PROXY. No where are no shows or no votes counted. NO's are only counted for ballots cast on any given amendment where the entire membership is entitled to cast a vote.

Taken from our CCR

Vehicles:
A reasonable number of trailers, motorhomes, trucks, campers, boasts and other such recreational vehicles, and inoperable vehicles belonging to an owner, may be stored within the project if kept within a fenced side or rear yard area or within an accessory building constructed upon the Lot. Vehicles repairs and maintenance shall not be conducte3d in th private streets or in driveways on the lots, except in an emergency. The Association, through any director or officer may have a vehicle wrongfully parked or parked without authorization in the private streets of the project removed under California Vehicle Code 22658.2 (if signs are posted and if the Association is otherwise in compliance with the provisions of such section)

That is it. If we have to park our truck behind the fence so does every truck used for personal or business use. My truck is a mid-size, about 10,000lbs, and does look defferent because it is a flat bed. Back to the wording. It does not say what kind of truck i.e. trucks with signage, pink trucks, ect. It says TRUCKS. So on the amendment issue they are changing it to try to include my truck and exclude theirs. How can this be done? We had our IDR this week and we tried to compromise by telling them we would cover up signage or we could be grandfathered in. The BOD rep. said he liked the idea of grandfathering us in but does not know how to do it.
Also at the meeting to vote on the amendment, the BOD brought a board with 8x10 photos of Semi trailers and huge20,000 lb water trucks and asked the members "Is this what you want your community to look like?" I have found it only takes one person that as she stated "I dont like to stop at the stop sign and see your truck in your driveway everyday" to put the whole community in an uproar and divide friends. All because it makes her feel powerful.

GeraldT, yes, they are. That is the point.

If someone pulls their car into their garage, they are storing it in the garage until the next time they use it. They are also parking it there. The definitions are not mutually exclusive. There is not inherent "either/or" about them.

They are synonyms.

Conversely, if you do NOT park your car (truck, motorcycle, whatever) in the garage, but on your driveway instead, you are opting to "store" "park" "place for safekeeping" "position" "put" "station" "leave" etc, the vehicle in that location.

Yes we are Harold.

Michelle, You are splitting hairs here. The definition of stored is too ambiguous and certainly not stated in their documents. As I said, my docs say that anything not moved for 72 hours is then considered stored. Our definition, their definition??? Who knows what it means.

JillC: You have posted concern over 2 separate issues.

1) Your Parked/stored truck in your driveway which the Board says is in
'violation'.

Based on your assn's wording...."A reasonable number of trailers, motorhomes, trucks, campers, boats and other such recreational vehicles, and inoperable vehicles belonging to an owner, may be stored within the project if kept within a fenced side or rear yard area or within an accessory building constructed upon the Lot".
It clearly states that the noted vehicles, operable/inoperable, may be stored IF KEPT WITHIN A FENCED SIDE OR REAR YARD OR WITHIN AN ACCESSORY BLDG. ... Since your truck (whether its the same as any other or different from other trucks) is in your driveway on a regular basis for regular use, this is against what the docs state is allowed.

Further, you state you cannot store the truck behind the fence since you already have an RV STORED/PARKED BEHIND THE FENCE. And, you have 3 other cars on your driveway. I don't think a debate on the meaning of 'store' vs. 'park' is relevant to this situation UNLESS your documents also have a reference to PARKING VEHICLES and what is allowed/where. If PARKING is not referred elsewhere,we have to take it as parking and storing being one and the same for document purposes--again, only if there is no other reference to PARKING VEHICLES when and where.

2) The ability of the Parking amendment to pass/not pass.
Your docs state 67% of owners TO VOTE YES to pass an amendment--67% of 45
owners is 30 owners to vote yes. The amendment did not pass.

If there are 'other trucks' parked/stored on the driveways and you believe you are being singled out unnecessarily, I suggest you take photos of the other trucks and mail them to the Board with your concern over selective enforcement.

, as one and the same for document purposes.

given.what your docs state on parking vehicles. Is the only reference the one you noted above?
If so, this is clearly--UNCLEAR!

MichelleD - You are saying that Jill is compliant? How do you interpret Jill's cc&r as follows to mean parking her truck in the driveway is compliant:

"...may be stored within the project if kept within a fenced side or rear yard area or within an accessory building constructed upon the Lot."?

Quote from DonnaS - "Yes we are Harold."

Gotta love the sidebar and the fact that neither of you are willing or able to answer the questions or explain how you interpret that a non-vote means it is a no vote. What you are basically doing by believing this and perhaps unilaterally governing that way is that a non-vote is equal to an owner that takes the time to participate by person or by proxy and vote "no". To me, a yes or no vote is greater than a non-vote. A no vote means no, a yes vote means yes. A no vote means nothing, doesn't count other than towards the total possible votes for or against a measure or a matter put to the association. Thankfully, my HOA concurs, and more importantly all our government.

No Gerald, I'm saying just the opposite.

I thought my post was going directly below your post where you stated this:

"I agree with you on the distinction between storage and parking, and your comparison that if you are storing your vehicle, so is everyone else."

And I was commenting that we do not make a distinction. If the vehicle is stopped somewhere and left there until it is used again, even if it's used daily, it's still "stored" at that location, per our HOA and CC&Rs and BOD.

But it seems that in the meantime the O.P. posted the actual CC&R regarding vehicles and that confirmed that she was not compliant, per the CC&R she posted.

So, long-story short: Nevermind.

Re: a non-vote being a 'no' vote.

For the purpose of Jill's original concern over how many votes are needed to pass an amendment, the docs state 67% of "yes votes to pass".

For amendment change purposes (as above), all deed owners are to be supplied info and are 'invited' to cast a vote. Jill's post stated there are 43 members--some voted no and some voted yes.

With respect to all who have posted their opinion on how a non-vote is counted (or not)....IMHO, a non-vote can only be counted 'no' IF THE OWNER
received amendment info to cast their vote but they chose to ABSTAIN from voting. Jill did not state whether the ability to vote was offered to ALL owners in the assn. or if a vote was held at a meeting whereby ALL owners were not present (or by proxy), and the vote was taken only from those present. If its the latter, it may not have been a valid vote at all for the reasons noted above.

That's what I have learned from being involved with posters and postings
from this site. Pls. correct if my interpretation is wrong...

The amendment went to all homeowners in the mail requesting that they vote and return by a certian date. It stated that if they did not get the required votes they may have to revote.
Again 45 homeowners
18 in favor
13 against
No section to obstain. But 14 ballots not returned.

The only section that states they need 67% is in the section under "Rights of Institutional mortagage holders" Does that mean they need the 67%? They said they need 50% plus one
Im SOOOOO confused.

You got that right Donna. Take what you can get out of the postings and move on.

I wish someone would declare themselve final word and set Poor Jill straight.

My answer to her is the vote does not pass, if her husband is big enough threaten everyone with bodily harm if they don't agree.

If the board wants to vote again, they are sore losers, so if they did it I would try and make sure everyone knew what was going on and if that required personal contact, phone or e-mail or visit, I would do it.

Jill is intitled to have her argument against the vote, I am sure we agree on that.

o all who commented here,
I would be interested in hear a critique on how this vote counting should be carried on in condos.

Both for quorum and for elections using apportioned voting.

Robert -
Personally, I wouldn't buy into an association with apportioned votes in the first place. IMO: it should be one vote per unit, regardless of size.

Having said that though, if I were setting up the apportioning system, then it would be based on whole votes. Instead of one unit having 1 vote while another one had 1-1/2 votes, I would set it up so that the first one had 2 votes and the larger one had 3. Percentages (both for quorum and for elections) would then be based on the total number of votes available.

Bottom line though, especially if your Association uses apportioning, the procedure should be spelled out in your documents.

Thanks for the response. I guess I thought that Institutional Holders of Mortgages were banks that held the loans not homeowners. Am I correct in assuming that homeowners are included in this? As I read on It states That the provisions are for the "benefit of Institutional Holders,Insurers, and Guarantors of first Morthages on Lots " So that does include the homeowner as the guarantors?????
So many years of education and I cant figure this out!!! So thanks agian to all and Merry Christmas
Jill