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MarkP2
(Florida)

Posts:14

12/03/2007 12:38 PM
Posted By SusanW1 on 12/03/2007 7:52 AM I get a kick out of your outrage about water and snacks when your group has major problems. Like I said before - don't you have other crisis to deal with? Apparently you do, yet chose to perserverate on "water bottles and snacks." Well Susan - Herein lies is the basic problem with people that think like you. And that is, you are all smarter than the rest of us, 'so quite whining over trivial matters. And furthermore we are in control, so just do what you are told and we will all get along. One big happy family'..... Right? Well seven years ago in our community we had a BOD that felt just that way and decided to trample on another member. And instead of resolving that issue in a reasonable manner, our community is still in litigation. While the former members of the BOD have fled and only two are left in the community, we are left holding the bag. While I'm trying to protect my rights and from getting our organization in another pissing match, people like you just want me to shut up and stop bothering the BOD on petty issues. This is what you don't understand.... The CCR's is a legitimate 'CONTRACT' (that means legal in case you can't tie the two words together) The BOD is to perform certain actions and so are the members. If a member does something which is not allowed because of the terms of the "CONTRACT", - such as putting up a chain link fence, how long do you suppose it would take the BOD to send a letter, requesting the removal of the chain link fence? And by the rules of the "CONTRACT", it would be obvious the fence is violating the agreement(s). While in your mind, it is OK for the BOD to violate their own contract, regardless of how small the violation, - but if a member feels by putting up a chain link fence - and that is not a distraction at large to the community, - it wouldn't matter to the BOD, - it's a violation and must be taken down. And I would concur with the BOD decision. Our CCR's is a CONTRACT and it is a two way street, - each has to abide to what they promise the other. When one side strays away, no matter how trivial, it is wrong. There is a reason why contacts are written down, - so there is a clear understanding, - it's in 'black 'n white' - no gray areas, so that folks like you can’t interrupt the language as you would like to do, - especially when you have an opportunity to use OPM for your own benefit. It is clear that people like you have no qualms to 'pick the pockets' of others and disguise yourself as folks that do it for the good of everyone else. "I mean, - aren't there more important things we need to worry about?, - oh, and please let me have a five, we are going to buy fireworks!" Give me a break Susan, - if you want to serve others, - then learn how to do the RIGHT thing, - rather than trying to trivialize the wrong. Grow up.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

12/03/2007 1:24 PM
Okay Everyone, There are basically 2 kinds of personalities who are involved in the many posts that turn sort of sassy. Type "A "which is one of these going here and then the person who is passionate with what they are dealing with and trying to accomplish. Both have the right to express themselves but when the "A" gets aggressive with their words, we lose the purpose of what we are here for. This particular "A" tends to get as I say "sassy" too often. With much to offer, she needs to control those responses to those who are just trying to get good, working answers. This is supposed to be fun and not get aggressive with each other. Thanks to all, DonnaS

SetenaN
(Georgia)

Posts:23

12/11/2007 6:24 AM
Susan- Its actually easier to gag at a gnat then to swallow a camel. Mark- I agree on both ends but in the end the best thing to do is sit down and have an intelligent conversation with your neighbors because thats who they are. Offer up not only the complaint but also the solution. No need for arguing because thats usually what ends up happening when its someone who looks like you is making these type of decisions. Maybe there could be a compromise where there be 1 or 2 social type events in a year and any others be sponsored by the committees and not paid for by the HOA. The Board Im sure wants the homes to be a neighborhood not a subdivision and social type events give people the opportunity to see each other and then later on if something happens-take care of each other when no one else will. I hope things work out for you all because this is a gnat situation.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491

12/12/2007 5:54 PM
MarkP said: "I'm not auguring the benefits of community 'get togethers' and the PR it creates for the community well-being. My issue is having assessment monies used to sponsor the activity, when the CCR's do not expressly say so. The language used as 'recreation, health, and welfare' is very vague and could mean a lot of different meanings to anyone. " Quite frankly, Mark, you have answered your own question. "get togethers" and the "PR it creates for the community well-being [sic]" Regardless of how "vague" YOU PERSONALLY "interpret" recreation, you have just supplied a very legitimate (again, something you were allegedly striving for) interpretation of not only "recreation" but "health" as well. In addition, I could be wrong, but I'm also guessing that somewhere in your CC&Rs or By laws there is a clause that allows the board to exercise some discretion or determination whenever something appears that IS vague or that does conflict with another CC&R. So they have fulfilled THAT fiduciary duty as well. Many of these types of clauses are purposefully vague because there is no way to present or parse every perceived interpretation of them or scenario that would present regarding them. It appears to me that they are operating WELL within the "framework" of the CONTRACT. The move to correct the budget classification out from under Miscellaneous was a very good move. Quite frankly, I don't think the items were initially placed there for nefarious or stealth or "sneaky" reasons, but most likely because the treasurer or the board that first produced the expenditures did not have a ready-made category under which to place them and probably didn't anticipate or expect that they would have a long-term need for such an account. I would imagine it was an honest error, and has since been corrected. You don't like "your" money being spent that way. Well, unfortunately, the way I read your documents, the HOA is well within their legal rights to determine otherwise. Again, you would be hard pressed to find someone to agree that they are somehow breaching the CONTRACT. Just because a phrase or CC&R is "vague" doesn't mean that NO interpretation of it is correct. If you don't like the board's choice of recreation, get enough people together and change them out to a board that more closely reflects YOUR (apparently narrow) interpretation of "recreation" and "health." Regarding your ludicrous "example" of some board deciding that PORN would be okay to sponsor, well, if they presented the "recreation" legally, then guess what? They would still be in their rights to do that. You get pretty smart alec yourself there, Ranger. And using extreme examples that would hardly be reasonable is a typical tactic of "people like you" (to throw your own words back at you). And you do a pretty fair job of "name calling" without outright labels. Your post to Susan regarding her lack of ability to put two words together and understand their meaning was pretty cr*ppy, and much more offense than "scrooge." And that's only ONE part of the numerous insults hurled in that post alone. There is nothing immature about calling someone names in and of itself, especially if the name is appropriate. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and whines like a duck, sometimes it IS a Scrooge McDuck. MarkP said: "My question is very simple - if an expenditure is NOT listed as an expense item listed in the CCR's, can the BOD use assessments monies for this purpose? " My answer to you: Yes. If the BOARD determines that the expense is qualified under the variety of examples listed and if the association members agree and approve the budget. YOU, dear friend, have an agenda and YOU want everyone to agree with you that some fraud was perpetrated. I don't think it was. I think you are chasing windmills. Correct me if I'm wrong (again) but didn't you post on this site a while back under a different username? Your slap-happy insults seem hauntingly familiar.

MarkP2
(Florida)

Posts:14

12/14/2007 8:39 AM
Well Michele, I guess you told me so... first of all, based on your attitude, I don't think we could be 'friends'. Second, it was not me that initially noticed the insults hurled by another poster (Susan). Third, this is my first post to get a ligitimate question discussed and answered. It will also be my last. While several folks gave me good feedback, there is always that few that seem to spoil the desire to have adult communication. If you didn't like my responses back to Susan, - keep this in mind - they were 'responses' to her accusations, - which really was unnecessary. I think you have a friend in Susan, - maybe you guys should connect and see if you can outdue each other in spreading your venom. No need to respond Michele - this is my last post, - I have found other HOA friendlier web sites, - this one sucks. Good luck to all. Posted By MicheleD on 12/12/2007 5:54 PM MarkP said: "I'm not auguring the benefits of community 'get togethers' and the PR it creates for the community well-being. My issue is having assessment monies used to sponsor the activity, when the CCR's do not expressly say so. The language used as 'recreation, health, and welfare' is very vague and could mean a lot of different meanings to anyone. " Quite frankly, Mark, you have answered your own question. "get togethers" and the "PR it creates for the community well-being [sic]" Regardless of how "vague" YOU PERSONALLY "interpret" recreation, you have just supplied a very legitimate (again, something you were allegedly striving for) interpretation of not only "recreation" but "health" as well. In addition, I could be wrong, but I'm also guessing that somewhere in your CC&Rs or By laws there is a clause that allows the board to exercise some discretion or determination whenever something appears that IS vague or that does conflict with another CC&R. So they have fulfilled THAT fiduciary duty as well. Many of these types of clauses are purposefully vague because there is no way to present or parse every perceived interpretation of them or scenario that would present regarding them. It appears to me that they are operating WELL within the "framework" of the CONTRACT. The move to correct the budget classification out from under Miscellaneous was a very good move. Quite frankly, I don't think the items were initially placed there for nefarious or stealth or "sneaky" reasons, but most likely because the treasurer or the board that first produced the expenditures did not have a ready-made category under which to place them and probably didn't anticipate or expect that they would have a long-term need for such an account. I would imagine it was an honest error, and has since been corrected. You don't like "your" money being spent that way. Well, unfortunately, the way I read your documents, the HOA is well within their legal rights to determine otherwise. Again, you would be hard pressed to find someone to agree that they are somehow breaching the CONTRACT. Just because a phrase or CC&R is "vague" doesn't mean that NO interpretation of it is correct. If you don't like the board's choice of recreation, get enough people together and change them out to a board that more closely reflects YOUR (apparently narrow) interpretation of "recreation" and "health." Regarding your ludicrous "example" of some board deciding that PORN would be okay to sponsor, well, if they presented the "recreation" legally, then guess what? They would still be in their rights to do that. You get pretty smart alec yourself there, Ranger. And using extreme examples that would hardly be reasonable is a typical tactic of "people like you" (to throw your own words back at you). And you do a pretty fair job of "name calling" without outright labels. Your post to Susan regarding her lack of ability to put two words together and understand their meaning was pretty cr*ppy, and much more offense than "scrooge." And that's only ONE part of the numerous insults hurled in that post alone. There is nothing immature about calling someone names in and of itself, especially if the name is appropriate. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and whines like a duck, sometimes it IS a Scrooge McDuck. MarkP said: "My question is very simple - if an expenditure is NOT listed as an expense item listed in the CCR's, can the BOD use assessments monies for this purpose? " My answer to you: Yes. If the BOARD determines that the expense is qualified under the variety of examples listed and if the association members agree and approve the budget. YOU, dear friend, have an agenda and YOU want everyone to agree with you that some fraud was perpetrated. I don't think it was. I think you are chasing windmills. Correct me if I'm wrong (again) but didn't you post on this site a while back under a different username? Your slap-happy insults seem hauntingly familiar.

RobinL1
(Florida)

Posts:17

12/14/2007 8:54 AM
Our board budgets for entertainment which includes live shows, we have a social hall, stage, dressing rooms,piano, etc. Residents buy tics which would pay for this, but HOA signs the contract up to year in advance for shows during the season here in Fla. They also do dances, usually rock and roll on Fri night, pool parties, wine and cheese , etc. Games and prizes for kids who visit during the holidays. Small things are free, some you pay a small amount to join. The advantage is that you get to meet all the residents, while other events are held by individual clubs, which means an additional membership fee, eg. cancer research, veterans club, culture club, womens club, ort, book club, golf club, tennis,etc

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491

12/14/2007 9:04 AM
MarkP said: " While several folks gave me good feedback, there is always that few that seem to spoil the desire to have adult communication." I happen to think my feedback was "good" feedback as well, and "adult" to boot. Especially regarding my "feedback" that addressed your question regarding purpose of assessments. You continued to answer your own question. Recreation and social events can, without any parsing, be considered one and the same, or at least befitting the same definition, and the board is within the scope of the documents spending money on such things. It's unfortunate that you diss me on it because it doesn't agree with your position. My "feedback" to you regarding your own snarkiness, I feel, was legitimate, too. Again, I don't know Susan from Adam, but it seems quite clear that you yourself were trying to "outdue" [sic] her in snarkiness, and namecalling, and personality bashing, and whatever else you tried in your denigrating responses, regardless of who threw the first punch. You assess that her retorts are "childish" while seeming to give your own immature hurls a pass. If what I am saying makes you uncomfortable or annoyed or even angry, keep in mind, I'm not being nasty or posting "venom," I'm simply holding a mirror up to your own on-line persona. We're hunky dory as long as we agree, but if we disagree, we're toast.

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