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MikeS1

Posts:0

11/24/2007 12:21 PM
RonW - I have to totally agree with your last two postings. Lately, we hear more from whining, complaining homeowners who are not involved with the board, and there is another more appropriate site for those folks (everyone knows which site I'm referring to). It would be nice just to hear from more professionals who are either involved at the committee level or the Board level. I've learned a lot from this site, but lately, we've all noticed who the posters are... Homeowners that are not involved at any level with the board. In the words of a previous poster on this site, I firmly believe that if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem. I really thought that this site was designed for folks that were actively involved in their HOA, but it's readily apparant that this isn't the case. Don't get me wrong..I love this site, but it seems to be evolving and moving in a different direction.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/24/2007 12:55 PM
I stayed away for a while after the last barrage of insults and planned to post a new thread asking the owners and moderators to do a better job of policing and guiding this forum but I just got lazy and came back without it. Some day.................

Ron SC

JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728

11/24/2007 1:16 PM
MikeS1 - Not sure who you are referring to in your post, however I am a committee member, Board member, and owner. Second, I feel the site and this post can benefit from perspective of anyone that lives in and is involved in an HOA. If the folks at the front of the table wish to commiserate and share ideas only from Board members, it's no wonder there are so many HOA's that have issues.

JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728

11/24/2007 1:26 PM
Posted By RonaldW on 11/24/2007 11:16 AM Posted By JoeW1 on 11/23/2007 6:12 AM GlenL - ............. Until that is done you are going down a slippery slope led by an attorney, ........... They asked the attorney for help. The attorney is not leading them, just advising on what powers the BOD has in this situation. This is a far better plan that just "making a rule" and then having a member sue the association because they did not actually have the power to make the rule. Joe, I believe most of us are in touch with the feelings of the membership, as you pointed out somewhere, we are members ourselves. And we were elected by the other members. We have to remember though, that not all members feel the same way about issues and often, those in the minority will not get their way. The OP used the term "jerks" and you took exception to the term. We have a member who has been dumping his refuse on our HOA greenspace across the street from his property so he wouldn't get a violation letter for putting it out for collection on the wrong day. I caught him in the act of doing this recently and confronted him. He didn't seem to think it was a problem and was pretty nasty about it. Wouldn't you consider this person to be a "jerk"?? RonaldW - What is your point regarding the person you found littering and my opinion that indeed he is a jerk? I agree he is a jerk and therefore what???? Your all about trying to legislate who can post to this site and characterizing people as disgruntled owners. Just because an opinion doesn't jive with yours don't disqualify them from being on a Board, or involved in their community. That's a leap in thought on your part, a blanket statement. As for those in the minority not getting their way, there is a flipside. There are many many Boards that do not have a pulse of those they govern, and quite frankly don't care. All too often they "get their way" and guess what, they (the Board members) are by number the minority.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/24/2007 1:59 PM
Posted By JoeW1 on 11/24/2007 1:16 PM MikeS1 - .......... I feel the site and this post can benefit from perspective of anyone that lives in and is involved in an HOA. If the folks at the front of the table wish to commiserate and share ideas only from Board members, it's no wonder there are so many HOA's that have issues. From memory: There's the lady who's HOA would not approve her request to build a patio so she brought this up in every thread. She also felt that the board was discriminating against students and inserted this bit of wisdom in every thread. There's the guy who isn't actually a member of his surrounding HOA because of an error made in recording the CC&Rs yet he feels compelled to offer us advice on how to run one. He doesn't mind the fact that his neighbors pay to maintain the landscaping that he drives past every day. And he encourages the rest of us to check to see if we too can avoid paying our fair share. And how about the lady trying to find ways to circumvent the pet restrictions in her condo. We're getting good advice from her. And her sympathizers. Claim it’s a service animal. Yea, right. Then there was the one complaining that her HOA was telling her that she had to put her cat on a leash when in fact, it was the CC&Rs, not the HOA, and the cat didn’t have to be on a leash, it just wasn’t allowed to roam free. And countless other people who are convinced that every board member is a thief who is pocketing their dues payments and steering maintenance contracts to themselves and their relatives. Or convinced that their board has an "agenda" just because they do something that the poster does not understand or agree with. Or think that CC&Rs are a “sales tool” for the developer and weren’t ever meant to be enforced. HOA "issues"? Like the ones that make the news where an HOA is foreclosing on their house? Never mind that the owners repeatedly refused to pay their assessments and the other owners are being forced to make up the difference. That part doesn’t make the news. I'm sure with your perspective and wisdom, and being a board and committee member, your HOA has no issues, no disgruntled homeowners, and nobody ever violates the CC&Rs. The rest of us are seeking advice from other qualified professionals, board members and volunteers on how we can solve issues in our own HOAs and make them better places to own property and live. And do it within the framework of our respective CC&Rs and By-laws.

Ron SC

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/24/2007 2:04 PM
Posted By JoeW1 on 11/24/2007 1:26 PM ........ There are many many Boards that do not have a pulse of those they govern, and quite frankly don't care. All too often they "get their way" and guess what, they (the Board members) are by number the minority. Those must be in the HOAs that don't have elections for officers right? I'll bet most of the people complaining about their associations don't attend the meetings or vote. It's easier to sit at a keyboard and complain than it is to get involved.

Ron SC

MikeS1

Posts:0

11/24/2007 2:49 PM
RonW - Well said! - In looking at all these examples that you references, I seem to remember almost all of them. Most of them don't even deserve a response. This bears out my point exactly. It's getting a little old when these folks (who aren't involved with the HOA) and who haven't read their Docs, come to this site with nothing to useles, superfluous, rhetoric, complaining about rediculous problems, looking for free advice on how to solve a problem with their Board or PM, when they totally out there in left field. I really don't care to read those postings or respond to them. Someone mentioned blanket statements previously. Why is it that this one individual seems to think that most all boards don't have the pulse or opinions of the members? After establishing an optional community news/email list, newsletter, interactive website and other channels designed to improve communication with our community members in our community, I have to say that I know our community any many others in our area are very effective at keeping all the channels open to all the members. We also try to involve as many members in various committees, so that they can see and understand what's happening in our community. It's the people that are uninformed, illinformed, and I will even go so far as to say 'ignorant', who haven't read their HOA docs are waisting my time. The whining is just getting old.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2497

11/24/2007 4:23 PM
Ron and Mike, One nice think about a talk site is you don't have to talk. The alternative seems to start a HOAtak site reserved for BOD, or boot all the ones off that post what someone doesn't like. Whoops, I forgot, this is not my web site and I can't tell the HoaTalk folks what to do. Now there's an idea, ask them to clean up this site and get rid of the ones that complain and whine. Well, that problem solved. Oh no, it isn't, there are still that bunch of owners that can't or don't read their documents. Well, maybe the Board could conscript them for an HOA Camp at lake Peyote Canyon for the summer. I bet HoaTalk never thought of that. I hope they read my post and consider the advice I have given them. All tongue in check and no offense intended. I do think this would be a subject that falls to this Host, and see nothing wrong in you suggesting any changes you may consider worthy. Do you think your conclusions will cause a change in this site, if you throw them up for argument? I can't see any progress being made that way. I am sure the webmaster would much prefer to handle this kind of thing on a person to person level. There is a link to the Host on this site.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/24/2007 4:37 PM
Posted By RobertR1 on 11/24/2007 4:23 PM The alternative seems to start a HOAtak site reserved for BOD, ........... If you read the header at the top of the page, that's pretty much what this site is supposed to be. There are plenty of "I hate my HOA" sites for complaining. It originally seemed that this would be a good place to share ideas for better performing our duties as HOA officers. This opportunity is slipping away. Understand all, disrupting this website will not make HOAs go away. They will still exist but those of us who volunteer to serve our neighbors will have a more difficult time doing a good job at it.

Ron SC

MikeS1

Posts:0

11/24/2007 4:58 PM
Ron & Rob - Well said! Sad, but true. Spot on!

BarbaraM7
(Virginia)

Posts:86

11/24/2007 7:34 PM
AnnaD2, Our unit parking spaces (each unit gets two spaces according to our CCR), and they are numbered and the visitor spaces say visitor. We have had trouble in the past with other residents parking in another residents parking spaces, but after a few of the offenders were towed in stopped happening as much. If residents use the visitors parking as an overflow, then they are towed. It doesn't make for happy campers, but it has slowed down the abuse of parking.

BarbaraM7
(Virginia)

Posts:86

11/24/2007 7:37 PM
RonaldW, Amen brother, it's easier for most to complain then to actually do something.

BarbaraM7
(Virginia)

Posts:86

11/24/2007 7:46 PM
RonaldW and JoeW1, In a perfect world we would all be able to fit in the jeans we wore in high school, and some of us wouldn't be getting our hair color out of a bottle. What do you think about this statement being added to all HOA papers? WARNING: You are about to enter the world of the Homeowners' Association, if you have a weak heart, anxiety attacks, or are unable to play well with others, we recommend you don't sign this contract, and live somewhere else for your health. By the by, could be get back to the subject at hand, which is this posters parking issue.

BarbaraM7
(Virginia)

Posts:86

11/24/2007 7:58 PM
DonnaS, Are you in a gated community? Our management office is up town, and we don't have security, besides the drive through by the local police force. The HOA near us has tried the sticker idea but it's not working from what I've been told. If I see someone I don't know parking in our spaces, I go out and tell them that they have to park elsewhere. I thought that screaming was coming from our street.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/25/2007 5:36 AM
Posted By BarbaraM7 on 11/24/2007 7:34 PM AnnaD2, Our unit parking spaces (each unit gets two spaces according to our CCR), and they are numbered and the visitor spaces say visitor. We have had trouble in the past with other residents parking in another residents parking spaces, but after a few of the offenders were towed in stopped happening as much. If residents use the visitors parking as an overflow, then they are towed. It doesn't make for happy campers, but it has slowed down the abuse of parking. When families outgrow their homes by having additional children, they usually move on to larger homes. If they live in a community with limited parking and feel the need to own more vehicles than they have parking spaces for, it's really the same thing, they need to move on, not expect their neighbors to sacrifice to meet their needs. Towing a person's vehicle will make them angry, but it gets their attention when nothing else will. You just have to make very sure that you have all your bases covered when doing so.

Ron SC

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/25/2007 5:42 AM
Posted By BarbaraM7 on 11/24/2007 7:46 PM RonaldW and JoeW1, ............. What do you think about this statement being added to all HOA papers? WARNING: You are about to enter the world of the Homeowners' Association, if you have a weak heart, anxiety attacks, or are unable to play well with others, we recommend you don't sign this contract, and live somewhere else for your health. . I know you meant that as a joke, but making sure prospective buyers read and understand the CC&Rs and any additional rules before purchase would be a big help if it could be done and greatly reduce the missunderstandings and hard feelings we often end up with. I had a call from an attorney's office recently asking if the dues on a property being sold were up to date. I asked the person if she wanted a copy of the CC&Rs for the buyer. She said "no, that's their responsibility".

Ron SC

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2497

11/25/2007 6:02 AM
Ron, I would think that may be against some guidelines for Agents if not more than that. It reminds me to call the Real Estate Commission to see what they say. I bet if the Board of a Condo decreed there will be no information given out on any units for sale until the CC&R's have been read and signed for, that practice would stop. What did you reply, as a member of the Board, and why did they call you anyway. Is this normal practice? Our manager has our records.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/25/2007 6:09 AM
Posted By RobertR1 on 11/25/2007 6:02 AM Ron, I would think that may be against some guidelines for Agents if not more than that. It reminds me to call the Real Estate Commission to see what they say. I bet if the Board of a Condo decreed there will be no information given out on any units for sale until the CC&R's have been read and signed for, that practice would stop. What did you reply, as a member of the Board, and why did they call you anyway. Is this normal practice? Our manager has our records. We are our manager. They called to see if any money was owed to the association by the seller. It happens with every sale. If they had owed money we would have been paid from the proceeds.

Ron SC

JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728

11/25/2007 6:22 AM
RonaldW - You do realize you are complaining about the complainers? I understand your frustration about those skeptical of their HOA Boards, but there are 10,000 members on this site now. The examples you site are only a percentage of those that are satisfied. However, if there are an increasing number of posts to the effect that their HOA's are theiving, maybe that should tell us all something about how rampant corruption may be? That's where we that are experienced can help those that feel that way and educate them on the information they need to make determinations. What concerns me is owner apathy and lack of knowledge of the day to day, time and energy it takes to make an HOA run. It doesn't matter if you have a management company or not. An important component of a well-run HOA is where the Board's level of conciousness about the ins and outs is continually shared with the new Board members and community who need the education. HOA's by design have built-in flaws. For example, relatively short term lengths dependent on achieving a quorum and percentage of typcially apathetic owners to attend and elect, or a Board to fill a vacancy. A learning curve of Board knowledge that may finally be achieved, but owners may be unknowledgeable of facts but willing to jump to conclusions based upon sidewalk conversations with disgruntled neighbors. Governing documents and original budgets written by the developer for the developer that require the expense of additional owner funds to improve upon and revamp. A transition process that requires engineers, and experts to draw conclusions of what's necessary to fund for replacements but attorneys and volunteer owners to negotiate, and an elected few to have the courage to fund adequately. As you can see Ronald, I've had my fare share of HOA issues. There are many things in this world you can not legislate, such as human behavior. Another important component of a well-run HOA is where the Board lets the owners work out their differences amongst themselves. That's where AnnaD2's HOA Board needs to step in, develop the parking rules and then sit back and draw conclusions after the rules are developed, not before.

PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347

11/25/2007 6:28 AM
RonSC: I agree with you on the parking issue and those residents whose family unit increases also increase the number of parking spaces they require. But, where does the responsibility lie? Can we tell a family they must move because they now have more 'drivers and cars' in their family than the documents allow for parking? Of course, this is ridiculous. But, you are correct, we, all of us don't realize at purchase, that association living with its restrictions can impact us greatly for our future needs. We are more concerned with 'what we will get' then what we will 'have to give up'. Such is the nature of the beast! I do agree with the 'attorney's office' in that the responsibility of the CC&Rs does not lie with the attorney. But it should be the responsibility of the developer, or seller, and real estate agent. You are doing well though, if you are given a copy prior to purchase; not sure if all communities do this or if the law states they must. This brings up a question. Who has the responsibility to ensure that buyers understand what they are buying into? Because, it really is buying into government-type living. Even typing that phrase makes me cringe...but, this is what we have bought into. What if there was a designated person who would explain what community living entails with its restrictions, as officially recorded at time of purchase. Do you think it would minimize problems and expectations of residents? I'm not sure. At the very least, a handbook on community association living should be available with general 'things to look for' and given to all prospective buyers in community living PRIOR to final settlement. It's wouldn't be a surefire way of minimizing problems, but it would be a start for those to understand better what they are getting into. Would the National Board of Realtors (or whoever they are) go for this? Not sure. Something to ponder.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2497

11/25/2007 6:35 AM
Ron, I know we get posting once in a while that refer to self management. If you should get the time and inclination, maybe you could post how you all handle the details. How many board membeer and owners, wwho gets to do what, are specifics assigned to each Board member, etc? I for one would appreciaite hearing how this all works out.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:460

11/25/2007 7:54 AM
Boy limiting the site to BOD would really limit thoughtful discussion and exploring all possible ideas.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:460

11/25/2007 8:04 AM
Posted By RonaldW on 11/25/2007 5:42 AM Posted By BarbaraM7 on 11/24/2007 7:46 PM RonaldW and JoeW1, ............. What do you think about this statement being added to all HOA papers? WARNING: You are about to enter the world of the Homeowners' Association, if you have a weak heart, anxiety attacks, or are unable to play well with others, we recommend you don't sign this contract, and live somewhere else for your health. . I know you meant that as a joke, but making sure prospective buyers read and understand the CC&Rs and any additional rules before purchase would be a big help if it could be done and greatly reduce the missunderstandings and hard feelings we often end up with. I had a call from an attorney's office recently asking if the dues on a property being sold were up to date. I asked the person if she wanted a copy of the CC&Rs for the buyer. She said "no, that's their responsibility". Is it your standard approach RonW that if someone speaks up like Joe, that they must not involved or have ever been on a BOD? You use it often enough! Attack the person instead of their message and hope readers will then have a lower opinion of that person? I found this comment particularly amusing, "but making sure prospective buyers read and understand the CC&Rs and any additional rules before purchase would be a big help if it could be done and greatly reduce the missunderstandings and hard feelings we often end up with." Crap, many times the BOD's, lawyers don't 'understand' the CCR's which can cause abuses!!! Just cause you read something doesn't mean you can understand it. I do AGREE with the concept that all homeowners at least be made aware there are CCR's and be given some SIMPLISTIC examples of the potential impacts they will have on what they want to do with their property though. Aren't newspapers written at the grade school level because that is what the majority of people understand.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2945

11/25/2007 8:05 AM
Everyone, and DJ1 This site was created to help B.O.D and committee members only. I see more and more disgruntled homeowners getting us all riled up with responses. I reacted once but anytime I get a good feel that I am reading a homeowner with a "bitch", I ignore them. I can go out on the street and listen to griping right here at home and I learn nothing from that so why bother spending time, defending a HOA decision when I can be productive elsewhere. If you want a "Bitching" site, go to CAI website. They are the other side of our coin.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:2497

11/25/2007 8:24 AM
Donna, Well, it had to happen. I strongly disagree with 90% of what you said. I believbe you are right as to the creation of this site, howver, it has apparently been successful according the the Web Master. If you can't hear all sides, you can't understand the problem. I agree there are folks, Board Members and non that gety on here to rant and have personal agenda, but I don't know that until (like you) I understand what they are saying. A Bitch site accomplishes little. We have no way to quanitify our success here, no matter who posts, we type it up, hit the send button and it gomes up on the site. That is pretty much what we do. I think we do it pretty well and believe me, I do not consider whether the poster is a board membeer or a member of ElQuida, when I post, I just fling it out there and hope it flies around for a minute or two. For me, that is as far as I want to think about it.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2945

11/25/2007 8:29 AM
Robert, Well, that was my first. Someone hit my "UGLY" button this morning. I'll reconsider my anger toward their post and consider myself being "told off" but it's okay. Thanks Robert.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/25/2007 8:46 AM
Posted By PaulM on 11/25/2007 6:28 AM RonSC: I agree with you on the parking issue and those residents whose family unit increases also increase the number of parking spaces they require. But, where does the responsibility lie? Can we tell a family they must move because they now have more 'drivers and cars' in their family than the documents allow for parking? Of course, this is ridiculous. They are supposed to figure it out for themselves just like when they figure out that they need more bedrooms. Bottom line is - you have two parking spaces, you cannot own more than two vehicles unless you have a plan to store them somewhere else. Seems easy enough to figure out.

Ron SC

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:460

11/25/2007 9:25 AM
Posted By DonnaS on 11/25/2007 8:05 AM Everyone, and DJ1 This site was created to help B.O.D and committee members only. I see more and more disgruntled homeowners getting us all riled up with responses. I reacted once but anytime I get a good feel that I am reading a homeowner with a "bitch", I ignore them. I can go out on the street and listen to griping right here at home and I learn nothing from that so why bother spending time, defending a HOA decision when I can be productive elsewhere. If you want a "Bitching" site, go to CAI website. They are the other side of our coin. DonnaS, I don't dispute the site was created to help B.O.D. and committee members. That is why it is important to listen to all views because help doesn't necessarily come from other B.O.D. and committee members, but can come from the discussion among ALL willing to offer their ideas/interpretations. B.O.D and committee members are operating from one perspective, that of the role they are in, so it may be helpful to listen to those outside that loop. In fact, the BOD/committee are the minority (in terms of numbers/views) so why not consider the voices in the majority when developing approaches to the problems posed.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:460

11/25/2007 9:31 AM
Posted By RonaldW on 11/25/2007 8:46 AM Posted By PaulM on 11/25/2007 6:28 AM RonSC: I agree with you on the parking issue and those residents whose family unit increases also increase the number of parking spaces they require. But, where does the responsibility lie? Can we tell a family they must move because they now have more 'drivers and cars' in their family than the documents allow for parking? Of course, this is ridiculous. They are supposed to figure it out for themselves just like when they figure out that they need more bedrooms. Bottom line is - you have two parking spaces, you cannot own more than two vehicles unless you have a plan to store them somewhere else. Seems easy enough to figure out. Those garages with lifts that allow you to stack vehicles should be very popular in HOA's like this.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

11/25/2007 9:48 AM
Posted By RobertR1 on 11/25/2007 8:24 AM Donna, ................. I believbe you are right as to the creation of this site, howver, it has apparently been successful according the the Web Master. ......... If you count quantity instead of quality. My understanding was that this was to be a forum for HOA officers and volunteers to discuss how best to solve problems and deal with HOA business and issues. Not a place for people to complain that their HOA won't let them violate their CC&Rs. Differing opinions from those officers and volunteers would be welcome and a great help. Rants from disgruntled homeowners are no help at all. And for those who keep posting that we need to listen to the homeowners - we ARE homeowners, remember? And we talk to our neighbors and members. All our board member's phone numbers and e-mail addresses are listed in every newsletter and on our website.

Ron SC

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