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AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
We went to our condo association attorney and he said that according to our rules and docs we (the board) are within our rights to limit parking. We are going to make a rule that there is to be a limit of no more than two cars per unit. Our attorney says we should make it a rule that anyone that has more than two cars must park the third (or fourth or fifth) vehicle OFF the property. So here comes the sticky part and I need your help regarding the wording of the "guest" parking rule. People (with two cars) are going to question whether they will be allowed to have overnight guests or visitors from out of town. It could get crazy because if we limit overnight guest parking to (say) only seven days, we'll get the usual jerks who will park an extra car for seven days, move it for one night, then bring it back for seven more days; etc. See where I'm going with this? So if any of you can assist us with the wording I'd really appreciate it.
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
AnnaD2 - Amazing, just amazing. You state, "we'll get the usual jerks"??? How about not coming off from a defensive position and contemplating establishing realistic rules that will accommodate the reality of your current parking spot availability and people's lifestyles?? That means first starting with a discussion with unit owners openly. Remember the unit owners, or did you forget that you are one of them and everyone pay maintenances fees and signed into a community with pre-existing cc&rs?? Did you already try that route and get pushback from the unit owners hence the, "Let's see how the attorney can interpret our limited powers and duties so we draft a rule that may further piss off the unit owners that won't comply anyway so we can fine them and create more dysfunction"?? See where I'm going with that?

First off, are your roadways dedicated for public use or are they private? If public use than you may have limitations. If private you still have to consider emergency vehicle access.

I suggest that the Board members as a team go out and perform a site analysis. Analyze the way owners are currently using the parking spots at the various times during the day, evening, and early morning especially during the holidays and when it snows. Diagram the usage and patterns and see if there is a way you can develop a rule that will make things safer, more accommodating to improve the lifestyle and general welfare of the residents. Until that is done you are going down a slippery slope led by an attorney, and IMHO not fit to be on the Board or committee. Sorry, but that's MHO.
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
Sorry Joe, I guess I should been been more specific about this...I didn't think I had to go into so much detail in the beginning. We are doing this IN RESPONSE to the unit owners. We only have 26 visitor spaces for 46 units (total of 72 spaces.) Some people have decided to have six or seven cars parked on the property. So people with two cars come home and have NO place to park. We did this because we're being responible to EVERYONE who lives here, in trying to alliviate the parking situation. The owners came to us for help with this situation; which is why we went to our attorney. People who DO pay their maintenance fees have a right to have a place to park when they're not abusing the situation. As far as emergency vehicles go; we're more than compliant to ensuring they have acces to our "street"...it's ONE driveway with parking on both sides....one way in and one way out. I didn't know this was going to turn into such a hostile topic, and have never gotten such a response, as yours, from the good posters on HOA talk. By the way...we don't have snow in Florida.
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Anna I'll try to give you some useful advice here if I can. The parking rules need to be simple to understand, simple to administrate, and simple to enforce. I've give you a clause that approximates what you're looking for, but I will tell you that this is very difficult to monitor. How do you really prove who is a resident? and who is a guest? You may want to just go to a permit system, where you give everyone two Mirror/Hang tags and let either your property manager or an impound company monitor your parking. With this clause below, you will probably still have the residents who try to pass themselves off as a guest.

"Visitor / Visitor vehicles: A visitor and/or visitor vehicle in Community X is an individual (and his/her vehicle, whether owned, borrowed or merely operated) who does not own, rent, or otherwise reside within Community X, and who visits no more frequently than three (3) separate occasions per calendar week (Sun-Sat). Visitor permit parking is limited to 3 consecutive calendar days in any of the visitor space(s) within the community unless the board grants written permission. The definition of a “calendar day” is a period of 4 or more hours within a 24-hour period ending at midnight”.
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
AnnaD2 - As you admit you did not post the specifics, so you reap a response that you sew. Now that you have elaborated and insulted me by suggesting I'm not a "good" poster I chuckle. My position is not from a hostile standpoint rather one of professional experience regarding site analysis of environments and over 10 years living in HOA/COA communities. It seems the current situation with owner parking is based upon first come first serve. That is the most fair method which removes the Board from the situation and lets the owners fend for themselves given the design of the community and parking spots available. And you posted the most interesting detail of all, "The owners came to us for help with this situation; which is why we went to our attorney.". So I ask, how many owners came to you? How can people be technically "abusing" a situation when there are no rules established in the first place?? You do need to develop a rule, there is no doubt. However, you need to develop a rule that is realistic and legal. Bottom line there are a limited # of visitor parking spots which were intended for the..... sole use of visitors?? Off the cuff, I conceive an idea to assign each unit 1 visitor spot, draw a yearly lottery for the remaining 20, number each spot and give each owner a corresponding tag. End of story.
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Anna - I've also seen communities like yours use permit stickers (placed in the quarter glass or right rear lower corner of the back glass) where they have required the owner/residents to register your cars, use a fixed sticker permit for residents and a mirror hang tag for guests. You could issue one sticker for each residence and one Visitor hang tag for each residence. Yes, you're going to get some residents that try to pass themselves off as guests, but that only works for a short time. If you see abuses, you just send them a letter that details that their numbered permits will be revoked if the abuses continue. Sorry that I don't believe that that first come first serve garbage. Since our community was developed, June and Ward Cleaver have moved on or died; and the density within the community has escalated exponentially. ... And so have the total number of cars that are parked in the community. Before we implement some control, the plan grossly favored the folks that get home early during the day. Those folks (some of whom had up to 5 cars) were loving life, since they could always get a space. Fair to all?? I think not. We all pay HOA fees for the use of the common areas, so why shouldn't we all get an equal share or equal access to those resources. You can usually get an impound/recovery company to provide the permits for free and let them monitor your parking areas. Good luck. Hope that you find a plan that is fair to all.
SteveC4 (Florida)
Posts: 154
Posted:


Hello:

We have the same situation here in florida...theres 28 units here and each home owner is assigned to one parking spot...but in the declaration its states that each unit should be allow only two cars per unit....we have one home owner...that has three cars and parks in everyones parking space...and wont park in the visitor section....and he does it on spite.
DonnaS (Tennessee)
Posts: 5,671
Posted:

Anna,

Parking too many cars actually is easier to control than you think. First of all-

-LIMIT EACH UNIT TO 2 CARS IN ASSIGNED SPACES. PROVIDE THOSE CARS WITH A WINDSHIELD OR SIDE WINDOW STICKER. ANY CARS OVER THE ALOTTED 2 HAVE TO BE PARKED IN A DESIGNATED OVERFLOW AREA. (It will be up to the Board to find that area. Maybe behind a clubhouse or rec parking area.)

Because you do not have driveways, your security or property manager can easily check on parking lots daily. It should not take more than 10 minutes.

Next--- ANY AND ALL OVERNIGHT PARKERS WHO WILL BE PARKING OTHER THAN THE 2 ALOTTED WITH WINDOW STICKERS, MUST INFORM THE OFFICE AND GET A PAPER TO DISPLAY ON THE DASHBOARD, HOW MANY DAYS THEY WILL BE THERE. SET A TIME LIMIT OF A WEEK OR TWO. THESE WILL BE THE GUEST PARKING SPACES.ANYONE ELSE WILL BE IN VIOLATION AND THEN IT IS UP TO YOUR BOARD TO ENFORCE THIS.

I can hear the screaming all the way to my house but it does not matter. Some people do not know how to share and consider others and those will be the ones making the most noise.. ( Anna, help me here. Are you not a 55+ community?)
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MikeS1 on 11/20/2007 6:21 AM
Anna - I've also seen communities like yours use permit stickers (placed in the quarter glass or right rear lower corner of the back glass) where they have required the owner/residents to register your cars, use a fixed sticker permit for residents and a mirror hang tag for guests. You could issue one sticker for each residence and one Visitor hang tag for each residence. Yes, you're going to get some residents that try to pass themselves off as guests, but that only works for a short time. If you see abuses, you just send them a letter that details that their numbered permits will be revoked if the abuses continue. Sorry that I don't believe that that first come first serve garbage. Since our community was developed, June and Ward Cleaver have moved on or died; and the density within the community has escalated exponentially. ... And so have the total number of cars that are parked in the community. Before we implement some control, the plan grossly favored the folks that get home early during the day. Those folks (some of whom had up to 5 cars) were loving life, since they could always get a space. Fair to all?? I think not. We all pay HOA fees for the use of the common areas, so why shouldn't we all get an equal share or equal access to those resources. You can usually get an impound/recovery company to provide the permits for free and let them monitor your parking areas. Good luck. Hope that you find a plan that is fair to all.

MikeS1 - The point I was making about the first come first serve "garbage" as you call it, is that the HOA should try to let people manage themselves, meaning not micromanage. Yes, develop a plan that levels the playing field but anything different is favoring someone over someone else.
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. We are not a 55+ community. A lot of people do NOT know how to share and they have the "me first", "too bad about everyone else" attitude. Our Board DOES care about everyone but we can't let the bullies run all over everyone else. At some point we're going to have to try to figure out other places to allow parking. But we're only two buildings and we have a "moat" surrounding the entire property. (Drainage for the watershed.) Yes, when we were a rental property (eight years ago) we were an adult-only community so we had a lot of seniors with only one car and a lot of them are now "gone" for various reasons. But now we have ALL ages and our parking does not support Mom, Dad and the two teenage kids all having cars. I'm going to take a lot of your ideas to the board and see how they feel about what you've said. Thanks again!
Jadedone4 (Virginia)
Posts: 495
Posted:
Unfortunately HOA are folks managing themselves...

If there were no abuse, there would be no need for parking guidelines...

Unit with "X" number of spaces (garage or driveway) is provide same number of decals to be made visible by owner. Same unit is provide one guest pass for 24/48/72 hour usage (additional passes can be purchased at costs from HOA).

Hire towing company, abusers of parking (i.e. those folks who have more vehicles then allotated spaces) are towed or they find alternate parking.

First come, first serve is unfair to everyone if, if there lacks a method to enforce that the abusers are addressed. Otherwise what stops "musical parking spaces..?"
AnnaD2 (Florida)
Posts: 960
Posted:
Jadedone4--I was waiting for your "words of wisdom". YOU seem to always put everything in a "nutshell" for all those who want to "disect" and "micromanage" all the problems that need attention NOW. We do have a towing company hired. As you say---"musical parking spaces" happens here all the time. First come, first serve IS unfair. We can't shirk from the people who think that THEIR needs are meant to be met first and foremost.
Jadedone4 (Virginia)
Posts: 495
Posted:
AnnaD2 appreciate the compliment, but my "wisdom" cames from getting too close to the "HOA stove" and having Roger, Gloria, Brad, Robert and others on here correct me...

My community is undergoing a parking resolution with final draft due at next meeting and the actual enforcement starting 2008. One of the challenges that I saw was that there was a push for a "BETE" (be everything to everyone) solution. I have said it before HOA's cannot effectively "legislate" behavior or etiquitte. HOA's can however legislate fair and balance rules which everyone is required to follow - not a cure all, but shows that everyone is being treated fairly and the same.

"Musical parking spaces" can be remedied with a STRONG and HONEST relationship with the towing company. Most if not all tow "contracts" are generally agreements which allow a particular company to patrol, enforce and tow in an HOA's domain. There usually is NOT a fee paid by the HOA for the services as the tow company is "paid" based on towing. The kicker there is that I would require the tow company to provide the "burden of proof" that a tow was a good tow. This can be achieved with digital photos (if spaces are labeled/marked/numbered, etc). You can establish that the vehicle is just being moved from one space to another, etc. Most digital cameras are time and date stamped - so that is proof enough.

THE KEY TO THIS SOLUTION IS A GOOD AND HONEST RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TOW COMPANY!

Now I will readily admit that may be a difficult task to achieve and the agreement/contract would (IMHO) need to be crafted so that the HOA has strong discretion as a Board to rule a tow bad/good and the company must acquience. There must be a healthy balance... guy who says it was a bad tow, after third time being towed for same infraction... hmmmmm??? Tow company tows and doesn't provide due diligence (i.e. digital photo of infraction) = bad tow.
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
AnnaD2 - Developing a parking rule is not in doubt. But you're coming from a defensive position using words like "bullies", and "we'll get the usual jerks". If there is no rule than you can't fault the owners for using the spots available. What else are they supposed to do? Once you establish a well-developed/realistic rule than make the judgments.
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Joe - Do you have anything tangible that you'd like to contribute?
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
MikeS1 - You've decided to be controversial by goating me, unprofessional behavior typical of many posters. Advise comes in many forms and many posts evidence what seems to be bias behavior that favors a few, this post is no exception. When I see that I point it out because I believe that is the underlying problem in HOA's accross the nation. A rule that has teeth is one that is well developed. Hence my suggestion to study the existing use patterns of parking. If some would rather not take that route and develop a plan for a use pattern situation that is causing a problem then they seek less tangible contributions.
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Whatever..
GlenL (Ohio)
Posts: 5,491
Posted:
JoeW1, you are priceless and your umbrage for being called for bad behavior gave me a good laugh when I needed it most. The OP started off asking for language for a rule to limit the number of cars parked on the property because they are having a problem but you're upset because they want to do something to clean the problem up and don't have a rule. (Catch 22 anyone)

You're also upset about Anna using the phase "usual jerks" and implying that you are not a good poster simply because you assumed her Board is power mad and out to p**s people off and fine them and more importantly that she is not fit to be on the Board (your words), get real.

Studies show that 5 out of 4 people have problems with fractions
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
To all,

I bet you all agree you can't put tem pounds of crap into a five pound bag.

Just as you can't put 40 cars into 35 parking spaces. 5 cars have to be parked somewhere else. Where? Maybe a problem for the Board, maybe not.
I think if there is nothing in your covenants that specifies who parks where, and I bet at one time there was, in a 55 comunity, it becomes either a problem in ammending the original parking plans, which should be on file or in court house. This provision probable runs with the land and is still valid unless you have record of official changes. If confusions is ruling the day and you can't allot parking spaces equally, and you can allow them on an apportioned bases, and parking spaces are limited common areas, if designated and common if not, it would make sense those units paying more for the upkeep should be assigned a larger portion of the common areas. When and if this don't work, use decals with a number that coincides with the assigned unit.. If this creates hostility, have a lottery. You can also assign spaces on a monthly or something bases for tenant of the month, or any other incenttive. Numbered parking spaces, numbered decals, enforcement are the best you can do. Our documents calls for 1 space/unit. Problem with that is some spaces have room for two cars, some only one. These spaces convey with property, all other spaces are assigned as quest parkinjg. That is not without it's problems and at least yearly we have to go through trying to do it better when someone starts screeching. It seems to be a prevasive occurance, it goes along with people accepting the rules then, bang, it is like they just discovered gold and want there share so a new study starts and it goes along until the next crises. We seem to do the best we can, and that seems to work........for a while.
My advice.........good luck!
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
GlenL - Your post proves my point. Additionally you have I written I used words Anna is not fit to be on the Board. Incorrect and irresponsible. I never called her irresponsible. I wrote, "Diagram the usage and patterns and see if there is a way you can develop a rule that will make things safer, more accommodating to improve the lifestyle and general welfare of the residents. Until that is done you are going down a slippery slope led by an attorney, and IMHO not fit to be on the Board or committee. Sorry, but that's MHO." I never called Anna irresponsible.

In addition to pointing out Anna's phrases about owners that I consider to be offensive "usual jerks", etc. I looked beyond that to offer advice. I offerred - "assign each unit 1 visitor spot, draw a yearly lottery for the remaining 20, number each spot and give each owner a corresponding tag.", "the Board members as a team go out and perform a site analysis. Analyze the way owners are currently using the parking spots at the various times during the day, evening, and early morning especially during the holidays and when it snows." Didn't remember to go back and look if Anna was in an area that gets snow, my bad.
JohnM3 (Florida)
Posts: 288
Posted:
To AnnaD2. I understand your frustration. We have a very similar situation we are a starter community of 305 homes in South Florida Ft Lauderdale area. Our city fathers allowed the developer to not build any guest parking lots any where in the entire community. So we got the same train wreck typical of what happens in Florida.
So we have given every homeowner blanket permission to widen there driveways to 3 cars wide . The problem then got compounded by the fact the city building dept is too lazy to enforce city building codes. But they are johnny on the spot over recyclable bins left in front yards the day after pick-up. So many of the homeowners to get more sq feet inside there houses they have closed up their garages. To make additional bedrooms with additional bedrooms come additional cars and the beat goes on and gets worse. Then we went to 2 tires on the swale two tires in the street. Then members got worse now its park everywhere on the sidewalks. We get 4-6 Police cars thru the community every 8 hours. None I repeat none of them stop get out of there cars and write a citation. I have had multitudes of meetings with the Police Dept and have heard in 19 years more excuses for not doing there jobs then you can imagine.
JohnM3 (Florida)
Posts: 288
Posted:
So we started out with a grand plan to build more parking lots. We started with a 24 slot parking lot, golf cart garage, and Clubhouse. Thanks to the superb fools in City Hall that went 100,000 dollars ovewr budget. They modified every single plan possible. They inspected there bottoms off. We finally got a CO on the entire project. We ended up borrowing money to finish the lot and clubhouse. Our semi intelligent GC put both items together as a entire project instead of keeping them simple.
The winning GC put both projects together making it impossible to get a co but eventually we got it. Now the rest of the 6 Parking Lots are on hold for 2-3 years due to costs that are out of this world. The city has made us add 3 foot of crushed stone 1/4 inch in diameter for every parking stall in the new lots. The total price is over 600,000 dollars.
We have recently went to roving security and it is there job to check on illegal parkers we have hired a "Shark Attorney " and he will take folks to court and protect our streets we hope. Just added $35,000 bucks to the budget to use for Code Enforcement cause the state took away in Florida all of our powers of enforcement. It has to be in your CCRs in Florida exactly on color and building shape to enforce. The city is supposed to enforce the traffic and they refuse to get involved!!!!!!! Welcome to HOA's in Florida.

The result is this be darn carefull before you decide to go the route of new parking lots and see if you can get some matching funds from your representative in congress. It might work tell him/her to add it to some bill that is popular as a earmark. Mutha has been doing it for Johnstown Penna for over 10 years.

Good luck!

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoeW1 on 11/20/2007 5:30 AM
AnnaD2 - Amazing, just amazing. You state, "we'll get the usual jerks"??? How about not coming off from a defensive position and contemplating establishing realistic rules that will accommodate the reality of your current parking spot availability and people's lifestyles?? That means first starting with a discussion with unit owners openly. Remember the unit owners, or did you forget that you are one of them and everyone pay maintenances fees and signed into a community with pre-existing cc&rs?? Did you already try that route and get pushback from the unit owners hence the, "Let's see how the attorney can interpret our limited powers and duties so we draft a rule that may further piss off the unit owners that won't comply anyway so we can fine them and create more dysfunction"?? See where I'm going with that? ...............

Joe, let me guess - you are not an HOA board member and have never been one. You have also never had extensive dealings with the public.

Perhaps the OP should not have used the term "jerks", but experience tells those of us who have been in a position of trying to enforce standards or "rules" that there will be a certain group who do not feel that these rules apply to them and will try to circumvent them in whatever way possible. Blame it on their upbringing, I guess.

Limited numbered parking decals for the residents and numbered guest passes for guests seems like the best solution and if there's a management office, registering the guests is a good idea. The guest passes should be linked to the residents so it's possible to determine whose "guest" is using the pass.

Whatever the final policy, it should be carefully worded and then board members should try to find any loopholes before the policy is implemented.

Ron
SC
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveC4 on 11/20/2007 8:53 AM

Hello:

We have the same situation here in florida...theres 28 units here and each home owner is assigned to one parking spot...but in the declaration its states that each unit should be allow only two cars per unit....we have one home owner...that has three cars and parks in everyones parking space...and wont park in the visitor section....and he does it on spite.

He wouldn't park in my space more than once. Sometimes you must confront a bully.

Ron
SC
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Ron,
You ate too much turkey and got up on the wrong side of the bed. Cut us a little slack and don't be guilty of what you are accusing Joe of doing.

Joe is a deep thinker, and writes this way. There will be a good message in what he says normally, unless he disagrees with me.

But your conclusion that because what he said is because he has never been on a board is way out in left field. You are damning 99.5% of the owners and exaulting the other 0,5 % to some heavenly devine throne.

Just not true.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Ron,
The rest of your post makes good sense and many have agreed with this kind of solution. I may not work in some situations but it works (after a fashion) in ours. Sometime, some folks, don't pay attention and don't want to pay attention.
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
RonaldW - You guessed 100% wrong on all counts. Are you suggesting only HOA Board members think a certain way? Currently in Anna's HOA I do not believe there are parking rules. So linger on that possibility for a moment. No rules, human nature prevails. Therefore, it remains to be seen the intention of those that use more than one space. My point is I believe Anna is coming off harsh in characterizing owners as "usual jerks" and phrases such as that. If you or anyone takes issue with my dislike and distaste of pejorative descriptions of owners, I'm none the worse for the wear.

If there are 26 visitor spaces and 46 owner spaces, there are 72 spaces. I envision a plant where each owner gets one of the 72 spaces and a yearly ottery should be drawn for the rest after subtracting any spaces that must designated by law for the handicapped, or special needs. However, I stick to my guns that a use pattern site analysis may benefit and evidence something that could assist in the realistic implementation of a parking plan.
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AnnaD2 on 11/20/2007 5:41 AM
................. I didn't know this was going to turn into such a hostile topic, and have never gotten such a response, as yours, from the good posters on HOA talk. By the way...we don't have snow in Florida.

This site is not very well policed and anyone can join and say what they want. A lot of folks posting here are disgruntled homeowners who failed to read the CC&Rs before they purchased their properties or just have a problem following rules and dealing with authority. Others just seem to enjoy arguing with folks for no good reason.

It's difficult at times to wade through all the BS to get the help you need. Many times I just decide that it's not worth the hassle and just go figure it out for myself. It would be much better if we could have a forum for board members and HOA professionals only.

Ron
SC
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoeW1 on 11/23/2007 6:12 AM
GlenL - ............. Until that is done you are going down a slippery slope led by an attorney, ...........

They asked the attorney for help. The attorney is not leading them, just advising on what powers the BOD has in this situation.

This is a far better plan that just "making a rule" and then having a member sue the association because they did not actually have the power to make the rule.

Joe, I believe most of us are in touch with the feelings of the membership, as you pointed out somewhere, we are members ourselves. And we were elected by the other members. We have to remember though, that not all members feel the same way about issues and often, those in the minority will not get their way.

The OP used the term "jerks" and you took exception to the term. We have a member who has been dumping his refuse on our HOA greenspace across the street from his property so he wouldn't get a violation letter for putting it out for collection on the wrong day. I caught him in the act of doing this recently and confronted him. He didn't seem to think it was a problem and was pretty nasty about it. Wouldn't you consider this person to be a "jerk"??

Ron
SC
BeverlyM2 (Virginia)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Alas, even the best-intentioned homeowner rarely reviews the CCRs before signing on the dotted line. Therefore, we have parking problems in almost all HOA communities. In ours, there is a huge imbalance as to where the visitor spaces are located. One section has tons of parking for "visitors" that they all use for extra resident vehicles (we, too, have overcrowding issues due to multiple families occupying single townhomes). Other sections have 1 spot for 18 homes, and one of the garage units (1/2 of the homes in this section) rotates their extra cars there. Hmm.

This has been a hot item for years. We were able to secure some on-street parking, but had a big fight with the county to get that. Then there was ill-conceived parking placed that created visual problems at several intersections. That's a lawsuit brewing.

The BoD has not opted to assign stickers or visitor tags, although that has been discussed. It has been left to a first-come system (sigh).

Add to this the fact that the contracted towing company is -- spontaneously and without warning -- towing cars from homeowners' assigned parking spaces for county sticker expirations (not their job, but the sheriff's job to provide warnings before allowing towing), and uou can imagine that this community is not experiencing its Zen.

The incoming BoD will be addressingthese among other significant problems in the upcoming year. So, we share your pain and have not had any epiphanies...but are still searching for answers. We've even gone to the county housing and zoning leadership for ideas to solve the overcrowding issue.

Yes, there will be differing opinions and frustrations ill-expressed, but all sincere efforts to provide thoughtful POSSIBLE solutions are to be welcomed. Please don't be hostile. Pray for us!
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
RonW - I have to totally agree with your last two postings. Lately, we hear more from whining, complaining homeowners who are not involved with the board, and there is another more appropriate site for those folks (everyone knows which site I'm referring to). It would be nice just to hear from more professionals who are either involved at the committee level or the Board level. I've learned a lot from this site, but lately, we've all noticed who the posters are... Homeowners that are not involved at any level with the board. In the words of a previous poster on this site, I firmly believe that if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem. I really thought that this site was designed for folks that were actively involved in their HOA, but it's readily apparant that this isn't the case. Don't get me wrong..I love this site, but it seems to be evolving and moving in a different direction.
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
I stayed away for a while after the last barrage of insults and planned to post a new thread asking the owners and moderators to do a better job of policing and guiding this forum but I just got lazy and came back without it.

Some day.................

Ron
SC
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
MikeS1 - Not sure who you are referring to in your post, however I am a committee member, Board member, and owner. Second, I feel the site and this post can benefit from perspective of anyone that lives in and is involved in an HOA. If the folks at the front of the table wish to commiserate and share ideas only from Board members, it's no wonder there are so many HOA's that have issues.
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RonaldW on 11/24/2007 11:16 AM
Posted By JoeW1 on 11/23/2007 6:12 AM
GlenL - ............. Until that is done you are going down a slippery slope led by an attorney, ...........


They asked the attorney for help. The attorney is not leading them, just advising on what powers the BOD has in this situation.

This is a far better plan that just "making a rule" and then having a member sue the association because they did not actually have the power to make the rule.

Joe, I believe most of us are in touch with the feelings of the membership, as you pointed out somewhere, we are members ourselves. And we were elected by the other members. We have to remember though, that not all members feel the same way about issues and often, those in the minority will not get their way.

The OP used the term "jerks" and you took exception to the term. We have a member who has been dumping his refuse on our HOA greenspace across the street from his property so he wouldn't get a violation letter for putting it out for collection on the wrong day. I caught him in the act of doing this recently and confronted him. He didn't seem to think it was a problem and was pretty nasty about it. Wouldn't you consider this person to be a "jerk"??

RonaldW - What is your point regarding the person you found littering and my opinion that indeed he is a jerk? I agree he is a jerk and therefore what???? Your all about trying to legislate who can post to this site and characterizing people as disgruntled owners. Just because an opinion doesn't jive with yours don't disqualify them from being on a Board, or involved in their community. That's a leap in thought on your part, a blanket statement.

As for those in the minority not getting their way, there is a flipside. There are many many Boards that do not have a pulse of those they govern, and quite frankly don't care. All too often they "get their way" and guess what, they (the Board members) are by number the minority.
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoeW1 on 11/24/2007 1:16 PM
MikeS1 - .......... I feel the site and this post can benefit from perspective of anyone that lives in and is involved in an HOA. If the folks at the front of the table wish to commiserate and share ideas only from Board members, it's no wonder there are so many HOA's that have issues.

From memory:

There's the lady who's HOA would not approve her request to build a patio so she brought this up in every thread. She also felt that the board was discriminating against students and inserted this bit of wisdom in every thread.

There's the guy who isn't actually a member of his surrounding HOA because of an error made in recording the CC&Rs yet he feels compelled to offer us advice on how to run one. He doesn't mind the fact that his neighbors pay to maintain the landscaping that he drives past every day. And he encourages the rest of us to check to see if we too can avoid paying our fair share.

And how about the lady trying to find ways to circumvent the pet restrictions in her condo. We're getting good advice from her. And her sympathizers. Claim it’s a service animal. Yea, right.

Then there was the one complaining that her HOA was telling her that she had to put her cat on a leash when in fact, it was the CC&Rs, not the HOA, and the cat didn’t have to be on a leash, it just wasn’t allowed to roam free.

And countless other people who are convinced that every board member is a thief who is pocketing their dues payments and steering maintenance contracts to themselves and their relatives.

Or convinced that their board has an "agenda" just because they do something that the poster does not understand or agree with.

Or think that CC&Rs are a “sales tool” for the developer and weren’t ever meant to be enforced.

HOA "issues"? Like the ones that make the news where an HOA is foreclosing on their house? Never mind that the owners repeatedly refused to pay their assessments and the other owners are being forced to make up the difference. That part doesn’t make the news.

I'm sure with your perspective and wisdom, and being a board and committee member, your HOA has no issues, no disgruntled homeowners, and nobody ever violates the CC&Rs. The rest of us are seeking advice from other qualified professionals, board members and volunteers on how we can solve issues in our own HOAs and make them better places to own property and live. And do it within the framework of our respective CC&Rs and By-laws.


Ron
SC
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoeW1 on 11/24/2007 1:26 PM
........ There are many many Boards that do not have a pulse of those they govern, and quite frankly don't care. All too often they "get their way" and guess what, they (the Board members) are by number the minority.

Those must be in the HOAs that don't have elections for officers right?

I'll bet most of the people complaining about their associations don't attend the meetings or vote. It's easier to sit at a keyboard and complain than it is to get involved.

Ron
SC
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
RonW - Well said! - In looking at all these examples that you references, I seem to remember almost all of them. Most of them don't even deserve a response. This bears out my point exactly. It's getting a little old when these folks (who aren't involved with the HOA) and who haven't read their Docs, come to this site with nothing to useles, superfluous, rhetoric, complaining about rediculous problems, looking for free advice on how to solve a problem with their Board or PM, when they totally out there in left field. I really don't care to read those postings or respond to them.

Someone mentioned blanket statements previously. Why is it that this one individual seems to think that most all boards don't have the pulse or opinions of the members? After establishing an optional community news/email list, newsletter, interactive website and other channels designed to improve communication with our community members in our community, I have to say that I know our community any many others in our area are very effective at keeping all the channels open to all the members. We also try to involve as many members in various committees, so that they can see and understand what's happening in our community. It's the people that are uninformed, illinformed, and I will even go so far as to say 'ignorant', who haven't read their HOA docs are waisting my time. The whining is just getting old.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Ron and Mike,
One nice think about a talk site is you don't have to talk.

The alternative seems to start a HOAtak site reserved for BOD, or boot all the ones off that post what someone doesn't like. Whoops, I forgot, this is not my web site and I can't tell the HoaTalk folks what to do.

Now there's an idea, ask them to clean up this site and get rid of the ones that complain and whine. Well, that problem solved.

Oh no, it isn't, there are still that bunch of owners that can't or don't read their documents. Well, maybe the Board could conscript them for an HOA Camp at lake Peyote Canyon for the summer. I bet HoaTalk never thought of that.

I hope they read my post and consider the advice I have given them.

All tongue in check and no offense intended. I do think this would be a subject that falls to this Host, and see nothing wrong in you suggesting any changes you may consider worthy. Do you think your conclusions will cause a change in this site, if you throw them up for argument? I can't see any progress being made that way.

I am sure the webmaster would much prefer to handle this kind of thing on a person to person level. There is a link to the Host on this site.
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 11/24/2007 4:23 PM
The alternative seems to start a HOAtak site reserved for BOD, ...........

If you read the header at the top of the page, that's pretty much what this site is supposed to be.

There are plenty of "I hate my HOA" sites for complaining. It originally seemed that this would be a good place to share ideas for better performing our duties as HOA officers. This opportunity is slipping away.

Understand all, disrupting this website will not make HOAs go away. They will still exist but those of us who volunteer to serve our neighbors will have a more difficult time doing a good job at it.

Ron
SC
MikeS1
Posts: 668
Posted:
Ron & Rob - Well said! Sad, but true. Spot on!
BarbaraM7 (Virginia)
Posts: 86
Posted:
AnnaD2,

Our unit parking spaces (each unit gets two spaces according to our CCR), and they are numbered and the visitor spaces say visitor. We have had trouble in the past with other residents parking in another residents parking spaces, but after a few of the offenders were towed in stopped happening as much. If residents use the visitors parking as an overflow, then they are towed. It doesn't make for happy campers, but it has slowed down the abuse of parking.
BarbaraM7 (Virginia)
Posts: 86
Posted:
RonaldW, Amen brother, it's easier for most to complain then to actually do something.
BarbaraM7 (Virginia)
Posts: 86
Posted:
RonaldW and JoeW1,

In a perfect world we would all be able to fit in the jeans we wore in high school, and some of us wouldn't be getting our hair color out of a bottle. What do you think about this statement being added to all HOA papers?

WARNING: You are about to enter the world of the Homeowners' Association, if you have a weak heart, anxiety attacks, or are unable to play well with others, we recommend you don't sign this contract, and live somewhere else for your health.

By the by, could be get back to the subject at hand, which is this posters parking issue.
BarbaraM7 (Virginia)
Posts: 86
Posted:
DonnaS,

Are you in a gated community? Our management office is up town, and we don't have security, besides the drive through by the local police force. The HOA near us has tried the sticker idea but it's not working from what I've been told. If I see someone I don't know parking in our spaces, I go out and tell them that they have to park elsewhere. I thought that screaming was coming from our street.
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraM7 on 11/24/2007 7:34 PM
AnnaD2,

Our unit parking spaces (each unit gets two spaces according to our CCR), and they are numbered and the visitor spaces say visitor. We have had trouble in the past with other residents parking in another residents parking spaces, but after a few of the offenders were towed in stopped happening as much. If residents use the visitors parking as an overflow, then they are towed. It doesn't make for happy campers, but it has slowed down the abuse of parking.

When families outgrow their homes by having additional children, they usually move on to larger homes. If they live in a community with limited parking and feel the need to own more vehicles than they have parking spaces for, it's really the same thing, they need to move on, not expect their neighbors to sacrifice to meet their needs.

Towing a person's vehicle will make them angry, but it gets their attention when nothing else will. You just have to make very sure that you have all your bases covered when doing so.

Ron
SC
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraM7 on 11/24/2007 7:46 PM
RonaldW and JoeW1,
............. What do you think about this statement being added to all HOA papers?

WARNING: You are about to enter the world of the Homeowners' Association, if you have a weak heart, anxiety attacks, or are unable to play well with others, we recommend you don't sign this contract, and live somewhere else for your health. .

I know you meant that as a joke, but making sure prospective buyers read and understand the CC&Rs and any additional rules before purchase would be a big help if it could be done and greatly reduce the missunderstandings and hard feelings we often end up with.

I had a call from an attorney's office recently asking if the dues on a property being sold were up to date. I asked the person if she wanted a copy of the CC&Rs for the buyer. She said "no, that's their responsibility".


Ron
SC
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Ron,
I would think that may be against some guidelines for Agents if not more than that. It reminds me to call the Real Estate Commission to see what they say. I bet if the Board of a Condo decreed there will be no information given out on any units for sale until the CC&R's have been read and signed for, that practice would stop.

What did you reply, as a member of the Board, and why did they call you anyway. Is this normal practice?

Our manager has our records.
RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RobertR1 on 11/25/2007 6:02 AM
Ron,
I would think that may be against some guidelines for Agents if not more than that. It reminds me to call the Real Estate Commission to see what they say. I bet if the Board of a Condo decreed there will be no information given out on any units for sale until the CC&R's have been read and signed for, that practice would stop.

What did you reply, as a member of the Board, and why did they call you anyway. Is this normal practice?

Our manager has our records.

We are our manager. They called to see if any money was owed to the association by the seller. It happens with every sale. If they had owed money we would have been paid from the proceeds.

Ron
SC
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posted:
RonaldW - You do realize you are complaining about the complainers? I understand your frustration about those skeptical of their HOA Boards, but there are 10,000 members on this site now. The examples you site are only a percentage of those that are satisfied. However, if there are an increasing number of posts to the effect that their HOA's are theiving, maybe that should tell us all something about how rampant corruption may be? That's where we that are experienced can help those that feel that way and educate them on the information they need to make determinations.

What concerns me is owner apathy and lack of knowledge of the day to day, time and energy it takes to make an HOA run. It doesn't matter if you have a management company or not. An important component of a well-run HOA is where the Board's level of conciousness about the ins and outs is continually shared with the new Board members and community who need the education. HOA's by design have built-in flaws. For example, relatively short term lengths dependent on achieving a quorum and percentage of typcially apathetic owners to attend and elect, or a Board to fill a vacancy. A learning curve of Board knowledge that may finally be achieved, but owners may be unknowledgeable of facts but willing to jump to conclusions based upon sidewalk conversations with disgruntled neighbors. Governing documents and original budgets written by the developer for the developer that require the expense of additional owner funds to improve upon and revamp. A transition process that requires engineers, and experts to draw conclusions of what's necessary to fund for replacements but attorneys and volunteer owners to negotiate, and an elected few to have the courage to fund adequately.

As you can see Ronald, I've had my fare share of HOA issues. There are many things in this world you can not legislate, such as human behavior. Another important component of a well-run HOA is where the Board lets the owners work out their differences amongst themselves. That's where AnnaD2's HOA Board needs to step in, develop the parking rules and then sit back and draw conclusions after the rules are developed, not before.

PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347
Posted:
RonSC: I agree with you on the parking issue and those residents whose family unit increases also increase the number of parking spaces they require. But, where does the responsibility lie? Can we tell a family they must move because they now have more 'drivers and cars' in their family than the documents allow for parking? Of course, this is ridiculous.

But, you are correct, we, all of us don't realize at purchase, that association living with its restrictions can impact us greatly for our future needs. We are more concerned with 'what we will get' then what we will 'have to give up'. Such is the nature of the beast!

I do agree with the 'attorney's office' in that the responsibility of the CC&Rs does not lie with the attorney. But it should be the responsibility of the developer, or seller, and real estate agent. You are doing well though, if you are given a copy prior to purchase; not sure if all communities do this or if the law states they must.

This brings up a question. Who has the responsibility to ensure that buyers understand what they are buying into? Because, it really is buying into
government-type living. Even typing that phrase makes me cringe...but, this is what we have bought into. What if there was a designated person who would explain what community living entails with its restrictions, as officially recorded at time of purchase. Do you think it would minimize problems and expectations of residents? I'm not sure. At the very least, a handbook on community association living should be available with general 'things to look for' and given to all prospective buyers in community living PRIOR to final settlement. It's wouldn't be a surefire way of minimizing problems, but it would be a start for those to understand better what they are getting into. Would the National Board of Realtors (or whoever they are) go for this? Not sure. Something to ponder.

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