RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/23/2007 3:39 PM |
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Posted By DanaA on 11/23/2007 7:34 AM
We still need to head from AnneH on what her recorded documents actually state!
Some documents allow the board or "rule committee" to make rules under certain circumstances, some do not.
The OP makes a good case for sympathy on many fronts, but if the actual CC&Rs do not allow two dogs or limit the dog's weight, it's time to make other arrangements for one of the dogs. She knew or should have know the CC&Rs when she bought the property. If it's a "rule" and it's subject to the whim of the current officers, I wouldn't even live there.
Actually, I'm quite surprised that so many members of a forum dedicated to HOD officers would attempt to give advice on how to subvert the CC&Rs. In any event, it's bad advice and it's not going to work.
.............
That said, I don't believe it is or should be a function of an HOA, COA, ect. to attempt to limit the number and/or weight of pets living in a unit. After all, we have no such restrictions on human residents.
Are we willing to show up at a resident's door with a search warrant to look for excess dogs or cats? Bring a certified scale to weigh them? And since some older pets are unadoptable, are we willing to effectively sign a death warrant for these beloved animals?
Pet problems can be dealt with as a noise nuisance or health issue if and when necessary. |
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Ron
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GloriaM
(North Carolina)
Posts:778
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| 11/26/2007 2:59 PM |
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Anne:
If the CCR's do not state 1 cat and 1 dog, and indeed it states 2 pets are allowed and the BOD put these rules together after your Mom has had the dog, then they must grandfather the dog in.
If on 11.16.07 ABC HOA promuglated a new rule, then anyone before 11.16.07 is grandfathered in. The BOD cannot expect that the CCR's state 2 pets are allowed and on whatever date they made this new rule that John Doe would just get rid of his 2nd dog of 10 years. It just would not stand up in court. |
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Dr. Gloria J. Martinez, CFO
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Author of "A Guide to Community Living"
Faith Management Services, LLC (North Carolina)
(704) 799-3791
www.FaithManagementServices.com
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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HaroldS
(Arizona)
Posts:904
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| 11/26/2007 5:29 PM |
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"Actually, I'm quite surprised that so many members of a forum dedicated to HOD officers would attempt to give advice on how to subvert the CC&Rs." Who is subverting the CC&Rs? We are always telling people that they should read the documents before buying. If they read that two animals were allowed, they should expect to be allowed two animals.
I don't believe it is within the board's purview to define which animals they will allow. So the next board comes along and decides on a different mix of animals. Owners would have to destroy their pets based on the whims of whatever board is in power. If they grandfather existing animals, there would be a great mishmash of animals resulting from all previous board's decisions. Who is subverting the CC&Rs? Harold |
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/26/2007 6:34 PM |
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Posted By HaroldS on 11/26/2007 5:29 PM
"Actually, I'm quite surprised that so many members of a forum dedicated to HOD officers would attempt to give advice on how to subvert the CC&Rs." Who is subverting the CC&Rs? We are always telling people that they should read the documents before buying. If they read that two animals were allowed, they should expect to be allowed two animals.
I don't believe it is within the board's purview to define which animals they will allow. So the next board comes along and decides on a different mix of animals. Owners would have to destroy their pets based on the whims of whatever board is in power. If they grandfather existing animals, there would be a great mishmash of animals resulting from all previous board's decisions. Who is subverting the CC&Rs? Harold
Harold, you're saying just what I said. However, if it's written into the CC&Rs, it must be enforced or the CC&Rs amended.
As for my comment on "subverting the CC&Rs", people were advising to have the animals certified as service animals or claim that they were just "visiting".
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Ron
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DanaA
(Florida)
Posts:116
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| 11/27/2007 4:48 AM |
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| Ron makes excellent point. And unless and until AnneH1 posts that her CCRs state otherwise, we should, by now, assume that her CCRs state "two pets, consisting of one dog and one cat", just like her Rules & Regs state. AnneH1 has been advised by many posters to research her recorded CCRs, and never replied back to this post as to what they say. Everyone should probably quit adding postings on the assumption that AnneH1's BOD changed the "rules" to restrict pets beyond the CCRs, because it has not been backed up by AnneH1. |
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AnneH1
(Florida)
Posts:14
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| 11/27/2007 11:09 AM |
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| OK, I'm back hope you all had a good Holiday. Anyways, for Ron just to let you know I am the new VP of this board. Only 4 people applied the 3 last board members & me. Now I have done some research, the original ccr's state 2 animals. The board further broke it down to wt & kind(didn't leagally change it). Like I have said before I am trying to work with them on this matter. Here's the real kicker, between me & the dog walker we have been keeping the little dog but bringing it to my mothers to walk with her other dog. Now the board is fining us for each time the dog is seen. NOWHERE does it state no visiting pet's so now where do you think I stand? So they just assume that the dog lives there and is not just visiting? I really don't think they have a leg to stand on, first of all any written complaint's need to be done under oath, before a fine is enforced it is supposed to go before 3 other unit owners to be reviewed. Then they send the fine letters via regular mail! Hmmmm, sounds like to me I have more of a case than they do! At the last meeting the President told me if I don't resign from the board she is going to recall me, if I'm not recalled she is going to quit! Now do you have a better idea of the kind of people I'm dealing with? Again, I want to thank all of you for all of the advice. I am learning a lot from you all and the research you have recommended. Please continue with your comment's they all are much appreciated. AnneH1 |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2833
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| 11/27/2007 11:17 AM |
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Anne,
I sure hope that you have read and printed out how to do a recall in Florida. I'll bet you a bunch that this angry President does not know how it works. Keep up the fight because it seems that she is ruling as it is convemient to her. The weight on the dogs is unenforceable. Get other residents behind you for more weight in your arguement. |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3701
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| 11/27/2007 11:28 AM |
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| Anne, the owner has the right to a Hearing prior to ever being issued a fine. This should be standard operating procedure for every HOA in every state! |
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150 
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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PaulM
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:1347
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| 11/27/2007 11:48 AM |
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AnneH1: Since you have learned that ..."the original ccr's state 2 animals. The board further broke it down to wt & kind(didn't leagally change it)...".
To make a change to the CC&Rs, whether its Declaration or Bylaws, a percentage of members is needed to vote on an amendment to change the existing document.
The Board did not do that. They went ahead, on their own, and changed the wording to further define something they want, without resident vote.
The change was not done legally and according to what your documents state (if you review, you will see the percentage of residents who must vote to change...); further, the change was not officially recorded.
IMHO, the Board is wrong and not performing their role according to the legal documents--regarding the fining process to follow and also in changing the meaning of the official documents without resident approval.
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AnneH1
(Florida)
Posts:14
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| 11/27/2007 4:46 PM |
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OK I have the original Docs in hand & here is what is says regarding PETS. "Condo parcel owners shall not keep pets or other animals in their units or within the common elements unless prior writtn approval of the BOD's of the Assoc. is obtained. It is the intent of the DEVELOPER that said written approval WIIL NOT BE UNREASONABLY WITHHELD FOR COMMON HOUSEHOLD PETS. In the event written approval as aforedescribed is obtained by the unit owner, then and in such event the unit owner will will be required to be sure that the animal is always kept under a leash. In no event shall the animal be allowed to cause a nuisance or disturbance of any kind or nature. The BOD'S of the Assoc.can withdraw the written approval as to PETS referred at any time in its sole discretion when the pet becomes a nuisance or the owner does not abide by the rules and regs. established by the BOD'S of the Assoc. pertaining to PETS".
Now dated 2/07/07 the three BOD'S came up with a bunch of rules & regs one of which pertains to PETS here's what it says " Unit owners & tenants shall be allowed PETS if they recieve prior written approval from the Board. The limit is two PETS total, 1 dog & 1 cat or two cats. The wt. limit for any 1 pet is 20lbs. It is the intent that said written approval WILL NOT BE UNREASONABLY WITHHELD FOR COMMON HOUSEHOLD PETS. The unit owner/resident is required to keep the animal on a leash at all times. This is a St. Petersburg City Ordinance & will be strictly enforced. In no event shall the animal be allowed to cause a nuisance or disturbacce of any kind. The BOD'S can withdraw the written approval as to PETS at any time at its sole discretion when the pet becomes a nuisance or the owner does not abide by the rules and regs. established by the BOD'S of the Assoc. pertaining to PETS". The owner of the animal shall remove animal waste deposits on condo preperty immeditately; violators will be subect to a fine by the BOD'S at 25.00 per occurrence".
They have been charing me everyday wether they see the dog or not!
Ok so there ya have it, know what do u all think? No, we didn't get written approval but we did get a veral temporary approval from the Pres.
And as stated in the docs I don't feel this is an unreasonable request to have the 2nd dog.
So does the clause in the DOCS pertaining to R&R"s of the Assoc. still prohibit me from keeping the 2nd dog?
Now that I have clearer info your responses again are appreciated.
AnneH1
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AnneH1
(Florida)
Posts:14
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| 11/27/2007 4:49 PM |
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| I aploogize that I said the docs said 2 pets but it does says PETS. My fines are up to 550.00 with interest. Man O man! |
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/27/2007 5:51 PM |
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Posted By AnneH1 on 11/27/2007 4:49 PM
I aploogize that I said the docs said 2 pets but it does says PETS. My fines are up to 550.00 with interest. Man O man!
Anne, you are a slow learner $550.00 in fines and you are still in violation? What is it going to take to get your attention?
And since you are now a board member, how would you feel about another member (besides yourself) who ignores the CC&Rs? What steps would you take to insure compliance? |
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Ron
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/27/2007 5:52 PM |
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That should have been:
Anne, you are a slow learner. $550.00 in fines and you are still in violation? What is it going to take to get your attention?
And since you are now a board member, how would you feel about another member (besides yourself) who ignores the CC&Rs? What steps would you take to insure compliance?
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Ron
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/27/2007 5:56 PM |
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Posted By AnneH1 on 11/27/2007 11:09 AM
OK, I'm back hope you all had a good Holiday. Anyways, for Ron just to let you know I am the new VP of this board. Only 4 people applied the 3 last board members & me. Now I have done some research, the original ccr's state 2 animals. The board further broke it down to wt & kind(didn't leagally change it). Like I have said before I am trying to work with them on this matter. Here's the real kicker, between me & the dog walker we have been keeping the little dog but bringing it to my mothers to walk with her other dog. Now the board is fining us for each time the dog is seen. NOWHERE does it state no visiting pet's so now where do you think I stand? So they just assume that the dog lives there and is not just visiting? I really don't think they have a leg to stand on, first of all any written complaint's need to be done under oath, before a fine is enforced it is supposed to go before 3 other unit owners to be reviewed. Then they send the fine letters via regular mail! Hmmmm, sounds like to me I have more of a case than they do! At the last meeting the President told me if I don't resign from the board she is going to recall me, if I'm not recalled she is going to quit! Now do you have a better idea of the kind of people I'm dealing with? Again, I want to thank all of you for all of the advice. I am learning a lot from you all and the research you have recommended. Please continue with your comment's they all are much appreciated. AnneH1
I don't understand. You say you are now on the board as VP, yet you use the term "them". Shouldn't it now be "we"?
And a board member who is in continual violation should be removed from the board. How can you expect to enforce the rules if you, yourself are in violation of these rules? Read some of the posts on this subject. |
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Ron
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/27/2007 6:00 PM |
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Posted By AnneH1 on 11/27/2007 4:49 PM
My fines are up to 550.00 with interest. Man O man!
Spending that $550.00 on an attorney would have been a much wiser decision. He or she could have told you that you were wrong and to drop it or written a letter to the association explaining that they were wrong and they must let you keep the dog.
That would have either settled the matter or sent it to court where a final decision could be made.
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Ron
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BarbaraM7
(Virginia)
Posts:86
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| 11/27/2007 6:39 PM |
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| Anne, Did you every have a due process hearing? |
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:900
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| 11/27/2007 7:00 PM |
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Posted By AnneH1 on 11/27/2007 4:46 PM
.......... The BOD'S of the Assoc.can withdraw the written approval as to PETS referred at any time in its sole discretion when the pet becomes a nuisance or the owner does not abide by the rules and regs. established by the BOD'S of the Assoc. pertaining to PETS". .................
Although I personally don't believe a HOA or COA should be in the business of counting or weighing pets, and I wouldn't have knowingly purchased a property with CC&Rs that give other people to change the conditions under which I live, this one has you dead to rights.
"The BOD'S of the Assoc.can withdraw the written approval as to PETS referred at any time in its sole discretion .................. "
You're going to lose this one. Make alternate plans.
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Ron
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AnneH1
(Florida)
Posts:14
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| 11/28/2007 12:57 PM |
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Ron, did you not read what I typed? I typed exactly what the original docs say, the refer to PETS NOT A PET! The board made the rule of what kind & how many! So because the docs say rules & regs of the assoc.? is that where I'm hung? Remember it also says it should be fair to allow & and be approved to have household PETS!
As far as the fines, I think it's funny because now I can sue them for not following proper protocol before issuing fines (no hearing before other owners)along with not posting meetings in the approp. time frame, not allowing me to video tape the meetings, the list of BROKE RULES goes on & on. When the BOD's made the rule 2 cats or 1 dog & 1 cat it was NOT voted on through out the community. Why would they make such a rule, isn't that discrimination between cats & dogs? So you see this place needs a lot more help than just this 1 issue! As far as me not refering to WE when I speak of the BOD'S it's because the 3 other members live in the same bld. & are friends and feel different on this matter! And yes one of the other BOD"S continues to break the No feeding ducks rule. AnneH1
To all, since I didn't have a meeting/hearing with other unit owners do/will the fines stick?
Thanks yet again, AnneH1 |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3701
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| 11/28/2007 1:35 PM |
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| Anne, I would write a letter to the Board requesting a Hearing on your aledged violations. I would advise them that a Hearing is needed to determine if there is a violation prior to ever considering a fine. The CC&Rs and amendments thereto define restrictions, not the Board. |
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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TracyT
(Maryland)
Posts:220
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| 11/28/2007 5:03 PM |
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Hi Anne,
The problem as I see it is that your mom did not receive "written approval" prior to accepting the second dog - although it was initially only temporary.
However, it seems based on your CCRs, the BOD overstepped its authority not only when they made a rule that specified the number, type and weight of "PETS" without a vote but also in their denial of the 2nd pet based on "WIIL NOT BE UNREASONABLY WITHHELD FOR COMMON HOUSEHOLD PETS". Also, per your CCR the BODs "sole discretion" to withdraw approval pertains only to a pet being a nuisance.
If your hearing will be held in open session, be sure you ask a lot of your supporters to attend - pound the pavement if you have to get them. And be sure to educate them on your covenant before then. Regardless, be sure you make this a discussion about your covenant, that is what will hold up in court and the rules take a back seat to it, especially if the association didn't vote on them.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Tracy
P.S. Be sure that hag president knows your rules/laws about special meetings and recalls. You were elected to BOD by the association - let her quit, then maybe her buddies will follow and you can appoint a new board. |
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HaroldS
(Arizona)
Posts:904
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| 11/28/2007 5:24 PM |
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| And you might do a survey to determine if every pet in the complex had been "approved" by the board. If not, and they use that argument with you, you can slap them with selective enforcement. Harold |
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DanaA
(Florida)
Posts:116
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| 11/28/2007 5:43 PM |
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| Hi, AnneH1. Here is a tough question, but necessary. You are very emotional about this issue, and I totally understand that. However, it is just a gut feeling, I somehow believe that there have got to be more "facts" that you need to disclose. The "Rules and Regulations" -word for word - (what are they?)the ones that you say were changed and implemented in February 2007. ARE these rules and regs, or was it an amended CCR? If this is such an issue, why aren't you quoting verbatim that actual language in ALL your docs? This is not a forum to get people to "side with you", we certainly can't do that and solve your problem. This is, however, a forum to give the actual, raw truth, and get some opinions based on facts, not emotions. So, please: Is it a Rules & Regulation, or an Amendment to the CCRs, approved by the membership in February 2007, that tightened these Pet restrictions? Your explanations will assist many, as this is a very popular topic! Thanks. Dana |
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EileenH
(Delaware)
Posts:7
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| 11/28/2007 8:42 PM |
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Anna
I am so a dog lover and unfortunately can see both side of this issue.
On one hand how does the board know the weight of the Westie (is there a daily weigh in at this community)? Would they allow two cats that were over 20 pounds (and believe me I have seen them)?
Did the board just recently make this rule and was your mother made aware of it and part of the voting process? I would demand they provide you the documents and then have a lawyer take a look at them.
On the other side of the coin you say your daughter left the puppy with your mother because the dorm rules did not allow dogs shows your family understand regulations set up regarding pets.
I so hope you can work this out for your mother and she can keep both dogs and have some peace.
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TracyT
(Maryland)
Posts:220
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| 11/29/2007 5:32 AM |
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Dana,
Anne said the CCRs don’t limit the number, type or weight of pets (see above). She also said in an earlier post that the association did NOT vote on the “rules” that were published by the board in Feb. 2007.
Anne please note this sentence from the “rules”: “The wt. limit for any 1 pet is 20lbs.” Each pet can weigh 20lbs.
However, you said that you were keeping the dog sometimes. That means you need to submit a request for approval to do so. Frankly, if you take the dog and let it visit your mom that would probably solve this immediate problem and buy time to get the rule issue ironed out.
Good luck.
Tracy
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AnneH1
(Florida)
Posts:14
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| 12/01/2007 9:34 AM |
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Roger, Why should I do that? Isn't their job as the board to know the rules & laws? They sure seem to think thay know everything else. if this ends up in court this may be my defense not to have to pay the fines. And a case for me to counter sue them for not following proper procedures, rite?
AnnieH1 |
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AnneH1
(Florida)
Posts:14
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| 12/01/2007 9:37 AM |
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Also it has been brought to my attention that one of the board members is calling around asking other unit owners if they would be willing to say they have seen the dog even when they havn't! This is really sad!
Anneh1
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JC3
Posts:290
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| 12/01/2007 9:48 AM |
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Posted By AnneH1 on 12/01/2007 9:37 AM
Also it has been brought to my attention that one of the board members is calling around asking other unit owners if they would be willing to say they have seen the dog even when they havn't! This is really sad!
Anneh1
GET THAT IN WRITING, SIGNED AND DATED, by those people that BM contacted. |
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GloriaM
(North Carolina)
Posts:778
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| 12/01/2007 9:49 AM |
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Anne:
Why would you do as Roger suggested? #1. You are a board member, #2 You know your rights and that is to have a hearing before the board prior to any fines being assessed. So the $550.00 cannot legally be applied until you are afforded the right to a hearing. |
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Dr. Gloria J. Martinez, CFO
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Author of "A Guide to Community Living"
Faith Management Services, LLC (North Carolina)
(704) 799-3791
www.FaithManagementServices.com
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2833
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| 12/01/2007 10:18 AM |
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Anne,
Isn't it amazing that something as simple as this dog problem has gathered 3 pages and still growing?
Anyhow, I keep reading the actual writting if the restrictive covenant and the rules and regs. I can actually say that I believe that this has gotten this far out of hand probably because of the President or perhaps the other Board members having a bug up their someplace.
I went back to your original post to find an answer to the 1 question that I think got this issue in motion with the Board (Pres). And that is that both the covenant and rules state that you must have written approval to have pets on the property. Did that happen? No. Did you submit for written approval? No As for verbal approval from the President, well you know that is not reliable as she has been the one to go back on her word.
Now, the rule and cov both read as--"written approval WILL NOT BE UNREASONABLY WITHHELD FOR COMMON HOUSEHOLD PETS." That is the defining sentence. Rules and Regulations are just another way of backing up the covenants and are written at the whim of a Board and are easily changeable. Maybe a quick call to an attorney with him just writting a simple letter might help. All that I can think of is to request a sit down meeting with the entire Board, try and not be emotionable and see if there is some compromise. You do have the covenant on your side.
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2833
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| 12/02/2007 5:38 AM |
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Anne,
I had another thought this morning. Was the change to the Rules and Regs posted 14 days prior to a meeting that was called to accept the change? It is required to be done at a regular or special called meeting.
Below, you will find the sentences from the Statute 718;112 BYLAWS from which the requirement is stated. If they did not follow this procedure, then any rules that they say are changed--are invalid. I hope for your sake that they did not follow this procedure. Good Luck, Donna
718;112 BYLAWS-- Such emergency action shall be noticed and ratified at the next regular meeting of the board. However, written notice of any meeting at which nonemergency special assessments, or at WHICH ANY AMENDMENT TO RULES regarding unit use, will be considered shall be mailed, delivered, or electronically transmitted to the unit owners and posted conspicuously on the condominium property not less than 14 days prior to the meeting. Evidence of compliance with this 14-day notice shall be made by an affidavit executed by the person providing the notice and filed among the official records of the association. |
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