AnneH1
(Florida)
Posts:14
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| 11/12/2007 4:42 PM |
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Hello everyone,
I will try to make it as brief as possible. My mother resides at a condo in FL. She has lived there for 15 years and does own her unit. Last year my daughter left to attend an out of state college. While she was there she was bought a Shih-Tzu puppy. She found she couldn't keep him at the dorm so my mother brought him home with her (at that time we thought it would be temporary until she moved off campus). My mother has a Westie that weighs approx. 18lbs. & the Shih-Tzu weighs about 5lbs. She has had the Shih-Tzu since May 07 and has fallen deeply in love with him and him with her. The two dogs have become best of friends as well. My mother also has stage IV colon cancer. She finds great joy and happiness with these two little guy's. When she isn't at home with the dogs she is at the clinic for many hours receiving chemotherapy at which time the dogs find comfort with each other. Now what my problem is the Condo board has made rules that unit owners are allowed to have two pet's under 20lbs. either 2 cat's or 1 dog and 1 cat. I have pleaded with the board for permission for her to keep both dogs and also provided them with a letter from her Oncologist/Psychiatrist stating they are therapy dog's and detrimental to her health, happiness and well-being. The board said "NO"! I also offered to take the little dog home with me at night and he can stay with her during the day, again their response was "NO". My mother has had no problems or complaint's from neighbors regarding barking or not cleaning up after them. Actually at one of the meetings other unit owners were trying to defend her but the appointed not elected board still said "NO". Now they have told her she has to get rid of him or they will start fining her 25.00 a day up to 1,000.00. I also offered to just pay the 1,000.00 for them to leave her alone and they still said "NO". It's hard enough to go through chemo-therapy to prolong her life, feeling sick, trying to stay positive and then to have hateful people on her case is just to much. All she wants is a little happiness that these two bring her knowing she only has at best 1-2 years to live. Please, any advice will be greatly appreciated. |
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Jadedone4
(Virginia)
Posts:495
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| 11/12/2007 5:10 PM |
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AnneH1, if they are "therapy dogs" as designated by the doctors; are they also designated by whatever local health agency? If so, you MAY have a case where the two dogs status could change with regards to the condo's rules (service animals).
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MicheleD
(Kentucky)
Posts:1698
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| 11/12/2007 8:52 PM |
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I would just take the Westie home with me and put him on a nutrition and exercise program until he lost 3 pounds.
At which point, both dogs would be "legal."
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Jadedone4
(Virginia)
Posts:495
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| 11/13/2007 4:15 AM |
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Michele, the OP stated that the doc's state, one cat and dog, two cats, but nothing about allowing two dogs - even within the weight requirements.
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PaulM
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:1347
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| 11/13/2007 5:20 AM |
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AnneH1: I find it unreasonable of the Board to create a rule which states that the 2 pets must be 1 cat, 1 dog (sometimes cats and dogs can't live together!).
Since you have proof from the doctor of having 'therapy dogs', as a medical necessity, the Board cannot deny you. It is the same as having therapy equipment (railings) or a special vehicle for your medical needs.
IMHO, any fine imposed will not hold up in court. |
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LindaC3
(Florida)
Posts:526
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| 11/13/2007 5:45 AM |
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AnneH1......Good Morning.....As an 18 year cancer survivor my heart is out to you and your mother....I did some research in Florida for you and this is the info I found....
Get your animal registered as an Emotional Support Animal, a type of assistive animal (remember that emotional disorders count as disabilities per the American with Disabilities Act) by the Service Animals Registry of America, SARA. Got questions?: e-mail them. **www.elitek9academy.com in Jupiter is affiliated with SARA.**
Especially if you live in Florida, seek assistance from The Advocacy Center for Persons with Disabilities,
800 342-0823.
The above was posted by a FORMER OMBUDSMAN for the Condo Associations of Florida......
I hope this will be of some help for you and your mother and may she find "relief" from these people who are so one sided...But for the Grace of God.......I know I would be lost without the companionship and love of my 3 labrador retrievers...They seem to know when I really need them the most...
Best of luck and let us all know the outcome........And if all else fails...........In florida it seems the only way to get the BOD attention is when you call the local TV station about cases like this......Lots of cases on the internet for Florida....Just google.....companion dogs in condos florida and see what pops up......
LindaC3 |
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RichardD
(North Carolina)
Posts:16
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| 11/13/2007 5:47 AM |
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First off, I applaud that board for performing their duly elected duties, namely, enforcing the rules. Sometimes it is a rather disgusting chore, but very necessary.
Too many homeowners either neglect to read the rules or just ignore them in hopes they don't apply.
Our covenants state that the homeowner may have 1 cat and a dog of gentle disposition and weighing less than 50 lbs. Now we have a new homeowner that just moved in with 2 dogs. He's laying a guilt trip on the board that they are therapy for him also. I suppose if he had 3 or 4 dogs they would also be necessary for therapy. My point is, why is more than 1 dog necessary? RichardD
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AnneH1
(Florida)
Posts:14
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| 11/13/2007 6:48 AM |
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Jade & Paul, ty for your advice and compassion.
Linda, ty very much for the information. Is your ca in remission? Yes, these little dogs love her so much & they do know when she isn't feeling well. They stay right by her side.
Richard, your response is one of the reason's our world is so messed up! Have you ever heard of the words compassion, caring or special circumstance? She has lived her for over 15 yrs. served on the board her self. She is sick now and we are asking for special permission considering the situation. As for the board, they pick & choose what rules they want to enforce dependent on their mood or who they are. This just seems to be the hot topic right now. Also, how can a board enforce certian rules when they themselves break rules too!!!!!!!! I can only hope you or someone close to you never is in this kind of situation! |
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HaroldS
(Arizona)
Posts:904
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| 11/13/2007 8:35 AM |
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| Richard enjoys his power which often creates situations that generate the negative media about HOAs. Anne, have you tried going to the media with your mother's story? Harold |
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JC3
Posts:290
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| 11/13/2007 10:53 AM |
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Therapy animals and emotional support animals are NOT service animals. To have a service animal(s) protected under the ADA,the person needs to be disabled under the guidelines of the ADA. The service animal needs to be tasks trained to mitigate the disability. These dogs have not been trained to do such tasks, nor do they appear to be therapy dogs, and therapy dogs have no protection under any law that I know of.
Emotional support animals have some acceptance under Fair Housing, check your laws on that and on numbers of ESAs to a person in a house.
Making one "feel better" is not a SD task covered under the ADA. |
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DaneC
(California)
Posts:210
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NancyD1
(Florida)
Posts:447
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| 11/13/2007 11:58 AM |
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Anne,
Sorry to say but there is nothing you can do about this rule. I researched Florida law to 1999, and not one case has been won in FL regarding keeping dogs or cats when a rule is laid down in the By-Laws.
There was a case as recently as last summer and the condo owner lost.
They also tried to get the dog listed as a service dog, and a letter from the doctor for medical reasons she should keep the dog; all to no avail.
Is there a friend or relative in a condo nearby that can take one of the dogs? They can still be together during the day, if not at night.
The board cannot fine someone if the dog visits during the day, only if they stay the night. Staying the night determines that they live there. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2832
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| 11/13/2007 12:20 PM |
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I looked up the official AKC dog weights and Westie Bitches are to be 13 to 16 pounds. When we got into an arguement about how to control which dogs were to be allowed into our developement, we went to the internet . The "official " weight" for the breed, according to the AKC was the standard which we use for each breed. My 15 pound westie is allowed and your overweight, 21 pound westie would not be allowed? Just because your's is overweight,that should not have any bearing on it's approval.And besides---WHO IS WEIGHING THE DOGS? Sometimes associations go just over the limits on interpreting their rules. For 1 or 2 pounds,someone has to look at this in another perspective. |
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HaroldS
(Arizona)
Posts:904
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| 11/13/2007 1:20 PM |
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| Perspective doesn't seem to be a strong point of some boards Donna. Certainly neither compassion. I see a whole new cottage industry for boarding pets overnight to avoid these rules. This is the type fodder which media loves, especially when involving beloved pets. This type of attention hurts all HOAs. Harold |
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MicheleD
(Kentucky)
Posts:1698
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| 11/13/2007 1:37 PM |
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Why 2 dogs?
Easy answer.
Dogs are social animals (pack animals).
Cats, not so much.
I know many people who have 2 dogs for that reason alone. When they are gone from the house, the dog still has a "companion" to "pack" with.
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:2832
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| 11/13/2007 1:38 PM |
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Exactly Right Mr. Harold. What have we become ? |
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JC3
Posts:290
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| 11/13/2007 5:52 PM |
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Posted By JC3 on 11/13/2007 10:53 AM
To have a service animal(s) protected under the ADA,the person needs to be disabled under the guidelines of the ADA.
I would like to clarify that it is the _disabled person_ who has the rights, NOT the animal. The regs need to be followed.
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JoeW1
(New York)
Posts:728
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| 11/13/2007 6:41 PM |
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Posted By RichardD on 11/13/2007 5:47 AM
First off, I applaud that board for performing their duly elected duties, namely, enforcing the rules. Sometimes it is a rather disgusting chore, but very necessary.
Too many homeowners either neglect to read the rules or just ignore them in hopes they don't apply.
Our covenants state that the homeowner may have 1 cat and a dog of gentle disposition and weighing less than 50 lbs. Now we have a new homeowner that just moved in with 2 dogs. He's laying a guilt trip on the board that they are therapy for him also. I suppose if he had 3 or 4 dogs they would also be necessary for therapy. My point is, why is more than 1 dog necessary? RichardD
Dear Hanna and HOATalk Posters - Shame on any of you for speaking out against RichardD. Bottom line the Board is upholding what the are required to uphold, simple end of story. Puhleeeeeeeease!! You bought into an association where the rules were the rules and now everyone is supposed to feel sorry because there is a very unfortunate exception, and therefore make an exception? The way it's supposed to work is that Hanna is supposed to request the matter be put on the agenda for discussion and let due process follow. Perhpas the other residents will band together and realize the unrealistic rule and the need to change, etc. As for HaroldS and his encouragement to go to the media, that is IMHO irresponsible and further drama which is what really gives HOA's a bad name, not RichardD's opinions. |
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DJ1
(Ontario)
Posts:456
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| 11/13/2007 6:52 PM |
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Joe and Richard,
Before we jump to the conclusion that the Board is doing its job I think the OP needs to clarify
"Now what my problem is the Condo board has made rules that unit owners are allowed to have two pet's under 20lbs. either 2 cat's or 1 dog and 1 cat".
1. What do the CCR's say?
2. When did the condo board make these rules
etc etc.
We can't assume they are just doing their job, they may have overstepped their authority. I wouldn't want to assume that owners agreed to such and such when they moved in, until we know the above among other things. |
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DJ1
(Ontario)
Posts:456
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| 11/13/2007 7:02 PM |
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To clarify the distinction I was trying to make,
Boards generally have the power to clarify the CCR's but not make new rules that don't at least have some basis in the CCR's. CCR's vs bylaws. |
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JoeW1
(New York)
Posts:728
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| 11/13/2007 7:37 PM |
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| DJ1 - I feel that restrictions of pets based upon their weight is the MOST RIDICULOUS RULE IMAGINABLE!! I can't stress and express my feelings enough. However, Hanna is fully aware that weight and number restriction is the rule, whether adopted legally or not. That said, someone needs to live with it and cut the B.S. and sob story on either side. |
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DJ1
(Ontario)
Posts:456
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| 11/13/2007 7:48 PM |
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Posted By JoeW1 on 11/13/2007 7:37 PM
DJ1 - I feel that restrictions of pets based upon their weight is the MOST RIDICULOUS RULE IMAGINABLE!! I can't stress and express my feelings enough. However, Hanna is fully aware that weight and number restriction is the rule, whether adopted legally or not. That said, someone needs to live with it and cut the B.S. and sob story on either side.
You mean AnneH?
If there are restrictions on pets stipulated in the CCR's and the Board has simply expanded to define them that is one thing, but if the CCR's don't, then that is another thing. Issues like grandfathering could also apply depending on timelines as well. |
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HaroldS
(Arizona)
Posts:904
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| 11/14/2007 7:50 AM |
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What is irresponsible about going to the media? Are you promoting an HOA version of Las Vegas - what happens here stays here?
Must be ashamed of some of our rules. Otherwise, why are we so afraid of media scrutiny? Harold |
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JoeW1
(New York)
Posts:728
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| 11/14/2007 1:04 PM |
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| HaroldS - Did you ever stop to think the negative effect that a public display of turmoil may have upon property values? Perhaps you'd like to jump to another conclusion rather than the most obvious which is what future investors may think of an association with drama. If you are willing to trust that the media will get the story right, better your investment than mine. |
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:1742
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| 11/14/2007 2:10 PM |
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I agree with Harold, what is so irresponsible about going to the media? If this is a good rule and it is clearly stated in the documents then there is no story or no issue. Sounds to me like some don't feel it is a good rule but are hiding behind the cloak of it is a rule therefore we must enforce it to the letter. If the board is being responsible and doing nothing wrong then what do they have to fear???
As to the issue at hand, if the board is not willing or denies an appeal of the rule by the homeowner, then the homeowner should seek help from her neighbors and try to get a united front to present to the board to get the rule changed.
To me it is a shame that in what is probably this person's last year o so of life that she has to fight such a petty battle. I certainly hope that when I am near my end and fighting such a horrible illness that my neighbors and friends care more about me than some rule probiting a second dog that weighs a couple of pounds. For those or you who are pro rules no matter what, I guess my opinion differs a little bit from yours and I like to remember the saying treat others as you want to be treated. And I will add that this is just my opinion and not an endorsement or statement or expertise. |
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GloriaM
(North Carolina)
Posts:778
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| 11/14/2007 2:17 PM |
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Anne:
You stated that the board made the rule, but what do your CCR's state? Rules and Regualations take a back seat to the recorded CCR's. I would like to hear what they say about dogs (pets) and their limits thereof.
My Mother passed away last year with stage 4 cancer and I know her little dog was a source of joy, happiness and companionship. In her last days she didn't reconize her daughters, but she did reconize her dog.
The CCR's are documented not in black and white but in grey, so that each incoming board has the latitude to interpret the CCR's for each circumstance. I believe in rules, but there has to be some leeway for extreme circumstances such as an ailing woman in stage 4 cancer. |
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Dr. Gloria J. Martinez, CFO
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
Author of "A Guide to Community Living"
Faith Management Services, LLC (North Carolina)
(704) 799-3791
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*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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DanaA
(Florida)
Posts:116
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| 11/14/2007 2:35 PM |
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| Florida is loaded with HOAs and condos with these same CCRs: two pets, consisting of one dog and one cat, or two cats. Maybe the thinking is that two dogs in one unit or home will bark to each other all day?! Maybe it was started due to noise issues being prevented? I have no idea. Anyway, it seems that if the board chose to make an exception to this very sad scenario,(which it is) then there will surely be another equally sad scenario owner next in line who also wants an exception. Then the BODs will be in the volunteer business of determining whose sad story warrants exceptions, which is a slippery slope. And once an exception is made, you have opened Pandora's Box. |
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PaulM
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:1347
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| 11/14/2007 2:53 PM |
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DanaA & others: For a Board in FL to make an 'exception' for a 'sad' case may not be the way to go, as you say, but each community certainly has the right to create their documents to suit the needs of the majority of residents. This also includes pet definitions/restrictions.
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:1742
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| 11/14/2007 2:58 PM |
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Paul:
I agree that exceptions may not be the answer, however, a good board realizes a bad rule and will adapt to fit their residents needs. Good point and post! |
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DJ1
(Ontario)
Posts:456
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| 11/14/2007 3:41 PM |
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| Seems Gloria sees the distintion I mentioned. Living within the rules, or working to change them are one thing but if the rules have been drafted by a Board, and if said rules exceed the authority of the Board, that may be another thing! I don't fall for the live with it line Joe and Richard seem to support, UNLESS, that is what the CCR's (members put in place) say vs the Bylaws the Board put in place. |
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