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ChrisB4
(West Virginia)

Posts:175

10/30/2007 7:17 PM
Is it generally accepted that HOA's fall under the provisions of a states "sunshine law"? Here is the act in its entirety: http://www.wvsos.com/adlaw/register/openmeetingshandbook.htm I live in WV and here is an excerpt for the WV sunshine law: ************************************************************* INTERPRETATIONS OF THE ACT When posed with an Open Governmental Proceedings Act (Open Meetings Act) question, three initial inquiries must be made to determine if a governmental proceeding is required to be open under the Act. These questions are: 1. Is the entity a governing body of a public agency as defined by the Open Meetings Act? 2. Is the governing body's gathering a meeting as defined by the Open Meetings Act? 3. Is there a specific statutory exception to the Open Meetings Act? The answers to these questions may be found in the Act or in the statute of the public agency involved. If a meeting of the governing body of a public agency is involved, and it is not covered by a specific statutory exception to the provisions of the Open Meetings Act, then the meeting must be open to the public. The following West Virginia Supreme Court of Appeals decisions and Attorney General's Opinions have defined more specifically the governmental proceedings which must be open to the public under the Open Meetings Act. Although an Opinion of the Attorney General does not have the force of law, it is the official opinion of the State's chief legal officer as to how the West Virginia Supreme Court would rule should the same issue be before the Court. PUBLIC AGENCY: The definition of a "public agency" [formerly "public body"] in the Open Meetings Act includes any administrative or legislative unit of the State or of any county, board of education or municipality. It does not include the judiciary. W. Va. Code § 6-9A-2(6) (1999). "Governing body" means two or more members of any public agency having authority to make decisions or recommendations on policy or administration. W. Va. Code § 6-9A-2(3) (1999).

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2299

10/31/2007 8:50 AM
Chris, After reading your Sunshine Law excerpts, it is apparent that each State has different provisions in these laws. Florida Sunshine Law has 2 seperate sentences which exempt H.O.A.s from the law because our seperate Statutes 720 covers meetings and proceedures for them. BUT WITH THE EXCEPTION OF---- Meetings of the association where the discussion is of zoning or any item where the County government is involved. Florida's 720 H.O.A. statutes are very thorough where meetings and procedures are concerned.

ChrisB4
(West Virginia)

Posts:175

11/01/2007 6:08 AM
Bahhhh! I called the State ethics office and asked if HOA's were required to adhere to the state open meetings laws and she said that it only applied to governmental agencies. I put in a call to my States Attorney Geerneral's office to see if there are any provisions that are in my state concerning how the Board conducts business.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2299

11/01/2007 6:21 AM
Chris, Just when you think that you found something that is in your corner and then "Bahhhh!", it isn't. But the good news is that there IS a clear writting to help us thru all of this work that we volunteer to do. The governmental agencies goes all the way down to your local township or municipality. In Florida, like I said, H.O.A.s have their own statute to govern meeeting conduct. I hope that your state also has it. The other good news is that now you are much smarter on this subject.

ChrisB4
(West Virginia)

Posts:175

11/01/2007 7:00 AM
Ok, well I have called: The States Attorney The Secretary of State office My County Commissioners office WV Department of ethics I'm up the creek without a paddle. WV has virtually no provisions on how HOA's conduct business outside financial matters. There is virtually no accountability whatsoever that I can find in my state or county. Fortunately I'm not the one with the problem. I fighting for people who don't even know I exist. I'm VP of my Board. Yesterday they decided to write a letter to a family they suspect "may" have more than one family living in the home. Our rules prohibit "multi-family arrangements, but, as our lawyer pointed out last time they tried to remove people in the same situation, our CC&R's don't actually define what a "multi-family" home is. Therefore the interpretation is pretty broad. The group we have now is going to get this HOA sued. I'm running out of ideas.....

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:1904

11/01/2007 7:34 AM
Chris, Been there, done that, search my postings on search feature on Discussion topic page. I have been through all the stuff you have plus. I will tell you this and it makes some sense after you settle down from all this frustration. SC has a State Statute for HOA's and Condos. However the SC Attorney General will not and cannot comment on what is legal and required or interpet the Statute. You will get no ruling from the State. You will get no definitive legal ruling from an attorney, all you get is opinion. If you go to court you will get a judges ruling (Opinion, subject to higher court opinion). So what does this mean? In effect it means as long as you do not conflict with the statute, your Master deed and BY-loaws, etc are the law for your community, all subject to challenge. You can get some quidence from non-profit state laws, but the State Statute Rules (by omission of subject sometime). In our state as yours apparently, until all this is changed at the state level the associations of these states set the rules. The statute gives the associati9ons wide lattitude to amen and change documents. There is no central clearing house to establish if those changes are legal (a lawyer only gives advice). You vote to make the changes, you make the changes and register them at court house. They are attached to your documents and stay until changed. The Attorney General Office informed me that the States position is to estabish the statute and let the private communities regulate their own members in priovate neighborhoods. If you think hard on it, it makes some sense. It does open all HOA documents to legal action, but what's new there. One abovious pitfall is that all original documents were made to the special needs of the developer, as he sees fit. We accept all this as being law, they aren't, just some opinion of an attorney getting paid to do what the developer wants. And this is exactly what the association does when they ammend or change the CC&R's.

ChrisB4
(West Virginia)

Posts:175

11/01/2007 7:44 AM
Robert, Thanks for your input. In WV Chapter 36B regulates "common interest communities" and there is little to nothing under "meetings". I am however finding some good information under another chapter, 31E which regulates "non-profit" corporations. There is quite a bit more in this section that defines how "non-profits" should conduct business. At the very least this section addresses voting outside of duly called meetings. Here it is: (a) Any action which, under any provision of this chapter, may be taken at a meeting of members may be taken without a meeting if one or more members consents in writing, setting forth the action taken or to be taken, signed by all of the persons who would be entitled to vote upon the action at a meeting, or by their duly authorized attorneys which action for purposes of this subsection is to be referred to as "unanimous written consent". The secretary shall file the consent or consents, or certify the tabulation of the consents and file the articles, with the minutes of the meetings of the members. A unanimous written consent must have the same force and effect as a vote of the members at a meeting duly held, and may be stated as having the same force and effect as a vote of the members in any articles or document filed under this chapter. I would still like to find something that deals with executive session. The Board can shelter itself by calling for executive session on all the items on the agenda they don't want to share with the public. I'll keep at it. Thanks again!

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:1904

11/01/2007 8:07 AM
Chris, Better check with the AG again to see if Non-profits laws ar effective in your HOA. It is certainly iffy here in SC if the AG position is to allow self government (not totally, but a policy of hands off). It goes without saying , criminal law is still criminal law in HOA's and if you get cught doing that you will be charged under state law. I believe this extends to fiduciary responsibilities also. Violation of State or Federal law as appropriate. You will also note that, especially in Florida; apparently major criminal activities of Managers, Boards, members, etc. seem to receive minor penalaties. With a good lawyer you can apparently get away with some serious stuff and the closure of the case never seems to happen. It become prohibitive for the HOA's to afford to close their part of the case.

LizzC
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:6

04/07/2008 10:17 AM
Hello All I found this forum while reseaching the Sunshine Act in regards to regulating private communities. By reading the responses I see I am not alone on my quest. Chris from WV, if you are still, I'd like to compare notes with you. I have been fighting based on the definition of "Agency" according to the PA Sunshine Act, "or similiar organizations created by or pursuant to a statue which declares in subsatnce that the organization performs or has for its purpose the performance of an essential governmental function and through joint action of its memebrs exercises governmental authority and takes official action.". If there is anyone out there still fighting this fight, please respond. Thanks and Peace!

ChrisB4
(West Virginia)

Posts:175

04/07/2008 10:37 AM
Posted By LizzC on 04/07/2008 10:17 AM Hello All I found this forum while reseaching the Sunshine Act in regards to regulating private communities. By reading the responses I see I am not alone on my quest. Chris from WV, if you are still, I'd like to compare notes with you. I have been fighting based on the definition of "Agency" according to the PA Sunshine Act, "or similiar organizations created by or pursuant to a statue which declares in subsatnce that the organization performs or has for its purpose the performance of an essential governmental function and through joint action of its memebrs exercises governmental authority and takes official action.". If there is anyone out there still fighting this fight, please respond. Thanks and Peace! I have called my secretary of state, talked to local county commissioners and what I have found, at least here in WV is HOA's are NOT required to follow the sunshine law, as it is for governmental agency's only, even though WV code makes it sound like the scope is wider than that. Basically any local or state organization that is paid for with tax dollars and has a Board or something similar is entitled to follow the sunshine law. HOA's are private businesses. It all comes back to what I bet you already know. It's what is in your By-Laws. If you think provisions of your sunshine law should be in your By-Laws, the only think I could suggest is drafting what it is you think should be included and present it to your community. Then following the rules for amendment, have it added to your By-Laws. My personal feeling is that we all need to be careful and remember that we're balancing the ability of our Boards to take quick and effective action, against accountability. I'm my community were real low on accountability, so I would like to see some of the content of our sunshine law incorporated in our By-Laws. I say this as I sit on the Board!

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1444

04/07/2008 10:45 AM
ChrisB said: " There is virtually no accountability whatsoever that I can find in my state or county." For the record, the accountability is in the documents and rests with the homeowner/members. The homeowners have to care enough, however, and that's the biggest hurdle. On the other hand, our municipality has a zoning regulation regarding multi-families in a single-family residence. We have pursued the issue twice and the monkey was removed from the board's back and placed onto the zoning enforcement officials. Who did enforce. It turns out that the "suspicion" was legitimate and one house had 2 families, both with more than 3 kids for a total of like 7 kids, living in it. Sure, it was a HUGE house, but still, their multi-family capacity exceeded the local restrictions on living space. The other case was an elderly family who had their son living with them, which was no big deal, except he was also allowing "roommates" in the house, and the local zoning officials enforced against that, too. Fortunately, we did not have to engage in any "investigation" or trying to "prove" anything, as once the information of the possibility of the zoning violations was turned over to the local enforcement agency, they handled it from there. The second family was ordered to move out, which they did, and the "roommates" of the son were ordered to move out as well, which they did. Good luck to you.

ChrisB4
(West Virginia)

Posts:175

04/07/2008 11:14 AM
Posted By MicheleD on 04/07/2008 10:45 AM ChrisB said: " There is virtually no accountability whatsoever that I can find in my state or county." For the record, the accountability is in the documents and rests with the homeowner/members. The homeowners have to care enough, however, and that's the biggest hurdle. On the other hand, our municipality has a zoning regulation regarding multi-families in a single-family residence. We have pursued the issue twice and the monkey was removed from the board's back and placed onto the zoning enforcement officials. Who did enforce. It turns out that the "suspicion" was legitimate and one house had 2 families, both with more than 3 kids for a total of like 7 kids, living in it. Sure, it was a HUGE house, but still, their multi-family capacity exceeded the local restrictions on living space. The other case was an elderly family who had their son living with them, which was no big deal, except he was also allowing "roommates" in the house, and the local zoning officials enforced against that, too. Fortunately, we did not have to engage in any "investigation" or trying to "prove" anything, as once the information of the possibility of the zoning violations was turned over to the local enforcement agency, they handled it from there. The second family was ordered to move out, which they did, and the "roommates" of the son were ordered to move out as well, which they did. Good luck to you. Multi Family home's wasn't really the point. We don't have local laws like that. The issue is the HOA Precedent takes it upon himself to enforce our rules, often without notifying the Board, but he tells the homeowners who he is enforcing the rules on, that the Board is putting pressure on him to do something about (whatever the topic at hand). No documentation, no objective standard on who the rules should be enforced against. When you bring this up and tell him he is being to subjective, he (the president said), "I am not, it's just my opinion". To which I hung my head.... This issues go a lot deeper here. For one The President has resulted in taking a lot of what I say and how others reply out of context and printed it and dropped it on the doorsteps of virtually all the homes in our development. Back to the issue at hand, there aren't many laws to govern HOA's, and as the poster above points out, if people aren't interested nothing will happen. Getting organized is about all you can do, but what I find is when 50 people do manage to get together against 2 or 3, then the divide and conquer rule applies and the 50 break up into 2-4 groups each with their own agenda. Fighting starts and little to nothing gets accomplished. I wish anyone having this problem lots of luck!

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1444

04/07/2008 12:35 PM
ChrisB, I hear what you are saying about the main protagonist here, and I don't know what to tell you except to continue behaving in a reputable manner and your reputation will ultimately speak for itself, as his will about him. However, I think you might be mistaken that you don't have zoning requirements that cover how many of whom can live/reside in one dwelling. I would be very surprised if your municipality, or county, or parish, or state, or whatever, didn't have some set of ordinances or zoning regs governing how many people, related or otherwise, can live in one dwelling zoned of a certain classification. But I recognize that your larger issue in this particular discussion is what you can do to reign this guy in, short of a neighborhood coup. It's like that in my state, Kentucky, as well. HOAs are not government bodies and aren't covered under any rules that apply to government agencies or bodies. Best of luck to you. (PS: LOVE the comment, "not subjective, just my opinion!")

LizzC
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:6

04/07/2008 1:14 PM
Well, It seems the fight has not died. Thank you for such a quick response. Perhaps I should give my exact reasons as to why I am looking into this; Executive Sessions are being held whenever they feel like, and they are conducting Association business behind closed doors. We are a Property Owners Association, a Not for Profit Corporation. We have a Property Manager and a Board of Directors(who make all decisions). They have spent over $30K in one month on a t.v. channel, sending resident representatives to a "diversity" conference, contracting for a Reserve Study (basically telling you when repairs are needed on buildings and how to put money aside for that), and purchased 5 new workstations for our Welcome Center. We have our own Building & Architecture committee which has more stringent building codes than the township in which we are located. We have our own police force (armed Public Safety Department). We also have a Citation Review Board, which is much like traffic court. We are, in essence, a town within a town. They have also taken our voices away at Open meetings. We can not express our concerns in regards to motions they make. So far the only thing they have complied with is the membership vote of amended By-laws. I did read somewhere that FL has started to amend their Sunshine Act to include HOAs. In PA, we have to follow The Planned Communities Act, which basically only tells you what a community has to do in order to be created. I have just started this endeavor and so far I have gotten conflicting information from our State Representative, who says yes, and our PA State Senator who says No.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2299

04/07/2008 1:24 PM
Lizz, I can tell you that the Sunshine law as it is now in Florida has 2 different paragraphs that state that HOAs are not required to follow the Sunshine Laws because our Statutes 720 are the governing laws and that 720 requires that all meetings of the Board must be open to the residents except in meetings between the Board and it's attorney in reguards to litigation and legal matters. So what you are saying is that the Fl Sunshine Laws will be amended to include HOA's? In escessence, the 720 Statutes are stricter than the Sunshine laws as they are written to date so I question that they would add HOAs to the law.

SusanW1
(Michigan)

Posts:1533

04/07/2008 1:35 PM
AT ANY TIME the MEMBERS can call a meeting. If your Board is not reporting to you then call a Special Meeting and ask specific questions. You also have rights to all minutes, and financial reports. Governing is not done by MASS. Members cannot expect to attend Board meetings and have Board member rights. The Board is charged with only the powers that the Bylaws give them. The people are supposed to elect the best possible persons for the Board, and then get out of their way while they make the best decision possible. The Member's Annual Meeting is the place to make motions to require the Board to report to the members, via newsletter or open meeting, to let the members know what they are working on, the progress of all projects and what is being considered.

LizzC
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:6

04/07/2008 2:16 PM
Donna, Perhaps that is what they meant. It was second hand information given to me. I do not believe PA has the same Statues, but I have not finished my research. Susan, Part of the problem is that the board has taken our ability to address them in public at any meeting away. We have to wait for the quarterly town hall meetings with Dept. heads and then it is by a written statement only which has to be in 2 weeks prior to the meetting and then...you are not guaranteed that they will choose your written statement to respond to. I understand about the election process and the board members entrusted to do the right thing but business is NOT to be conducted behind closed doors. Legal discussions of such, yes, but not the motion to approve it.

ChrisB4
(West Virginia)

Posts:175

04/07/2008 2:27 PM
Liz, It's funny, if you have read any of what I have written, some of it is about the fact that our Board abuses the ES rule as well. Remember I'm the VP on the Board in my community, but I'm in the minority. As it turns out some of our Board members didn't know the difference between a public Board meeting and an ES. As a Board member I'm am approached and asked if we can spend money without homeowner approval. Since our By-Laws don't give specific guidelines on how we should spend our money, basically, as long as we don't exceed the total budget for the year there isn't much homeowners can do. Currently if snow and legal fee's are in line with the average we're collecting ~$15,000 more than we need to run the day-to-day affairs of the community. I have proposed that we earmark most of that at the beginning of the year with the intention of using it for long term capital maintenance costs. Exceptions being made only for unusual circumstances (huge snowfall, natural disaster, or the association needs money for legal fee's ect). I would also like to see a cap put on the amount we can collect. If the cap is set to a level that would allow us to fully fund capital maintenance costs (roughly speaking), then future surpluses should be used to offset dues until the money in the communities savings falls below the cap. I went so far as to draw a provision for our By-Laws regarding ES, and hope to present it at our next annual meeting. The problem I have found is even if your Board violates the rules, who holds the Board accountable? The Board has large resources available to protect itself from individuals. Even as an individual if you sue and win, often you still loose since your stuck with a lawyer bill unless your lawyer is good enough to get the Board to pay your fees (with your money). The consequences if you loose a case like that are too big for most people and they just won't get involved. Good luck to you again!

PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347

04/07/2008 3:09 PM
ChrisB4: It would seem to me that HOAs are NOT a government agency and would not apply. However, with the group who wants "to write a letter to a family they suspect "may" have more than one family living in the home", you need to have your info accurate from the Declaration portion of your docs to learn IF the unit is for a Single Family Home. Also, speak with your local municipality office on their codes/regulations and what constitutes a single-family home. For the group to suspect that a unit 'may' have more than one family living in the home is not reason to send a violation letter. Positive proof would certainly be necessary, IMO, before this approach should be taken. It sounds like you have made yourself a type of arbitrator between this group and the family in the unit and are having trouble stonewalling this group. You are all treading on territory which is at best very vague when deciding the number of members which constitute a "single family". Why not work to learn the true situation and deal with the specifics of the actual problem/s these multiple members are causing--all according to your docs.

ChrisB4
(West Virginia)

Posts:175

04/07/2008 4:18 PM
Posted By PaulM on 04/07/2008 3:09 PM ChrisB4: It would seem to me that HOAs are NOT a government agency and would not apply. However, with the group who wants "to write a letter to a family they suspect "may" have more than one family living in the home", you need to have your info accurate from the Declaration portion of your docs to learn IF the unit is for a Single Family Home. Also, speak with your local municipality office on their codes/regulations and what constitutes a single-family home. For the group to suspect that a unit 'may' have more than one family living in the home is not reason to send a violation letter. Positive proof would certainly be necessary, IMO, before this approach should be taken. It sounds like you have made yourself a type of arbitrator between this group and the family in the unit and are having trouble stonewalling this group. You are all treading on territory which is at best very vague when deciding the number of members which constitute a "single family". Why not work to learn the true situation and deal with the specifics of the actual problem/s these multiple members are causing--all according to your docs. I agree with you that HOA's are not under the sunshine provision, something that I researched (not sure if you read all of my statements in this thread). I started this thread a long time ago and Liz brought it back to life As far as the whole multi family thing. First we have an opinion from a lawyer from a past Board where this came up. He stated that since our Covenants were vague on what the definition of a "multi-family" home is, that the courts will typically side on the side of the homeowner. Only in clear instances where there is a situation where a person has what can be defined as a "boarding house", or that it was abundantly obvious (and provable) that a LOT of people are living in a house should we take action. The President has taken upon himself using the justification that our property values will fall if we fail to take action. The President wants to visit the associations attorney to enforce the multi-family rule. When I asked, as a board member, to see proof I was told of several complaints (not shown, just told). I asked again what the proof was, he cited the complaints. I told him complaints weren't proof and as a board member I needed more than his opinion before I vote for the expenditure of community funds.

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1444

04/07/2008 6:12 PM
Chris, again, I'm totally not trying to nit pick you on this, but the advice that attorney gave may not have been sufficient. Especially in this time of undocumented immigrants, courts are getting very aggressive on the crowding of people into specific square footage. The old "short of a boarding house" mentality doesn't really apply anymore. I would certainly get a second opinion on that attorney's "opinion" in addition to having the Board "shore" up the vagueness of the wording. That can be done in more HOAs that you might think, given that many of them provide the board with the ability to make interpretations and definitions of "cloudy" areas, and those board-determined interpretations and definitions are binding. And Paul is still correct in one regard, that local zoning/housing statutes could very well apply. Paul, I do disagree with you in one regard, and that is that you can't send a letter out just on suspicion. The board wouldn't need "proof" to send a notice worded something like "we have been informed that ...... and would like to take the opportunity to remind you that our governing documents restrict multi-families .... (cite the passage) .... we respectfully request that if there are more than one family residing, please bring the property into compliance." But I still say that is better handled by an enforcement arm of local zoning. Also, one final little quirky thing for me, Chris (seriously, I'm not picking on you -- ! LOL, it just SEEMS that way!) Re: lack of accountability. You state: "Even as an individual if you sue and win, often you still loose since your stuck with a lawyer bill . . ." but even if you do have the lawyer bill, there has still been an enormous gain. It's a long-term gain that will end up paying for itself, IF the lawyer was not able to get the board to pay. Because the board now knows they CAN be held accountable and WILL be held accountable and that the membership WILL do that, then they will be much less likely to go down that same road. Anyway, I hate to hear of your'alls problems with boards.

ChrisB4
(West Virginia)

Posts:175

04/07/2008 6:34 PM
I don't want to argue, so please don't interpret what I'm going to ask as an argument, but if a complaint is enough to write a letter then what would you do in the event there was no reply? I agree that you can send a letter at almost any point, but at what point do you take action? If we receive a complaint that person X is running a business from his home and there is no external proof, is that enough to act? If we send a letter or meet with and ask the homeowner if the accusation is true and they deny it, then what? I have to agree with Paul, I think acting on suspicion is a slippery slope that will almost always end up with words like discrimination and racism (if it applies), especially when the members of the Board live in the community. Documented proof is a pretty good standard to hold yourself to as a board member because you have an objective standard that can easily be demonstrated. I will look into zoning rules, but once again, I'm not going to sick the county on anyone until I'm sure that I know a rule is being broken. As far as the lawyer thing and accountability....To get the enormous gain you speak of you have to spend money, lots of it. We have lots of problems here, enough I'm sure to bring suit, but I don't see anyone opening their wallets yet! Sounds like you might be willing if you thought it necessary, I sure wish you lived her!

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1444

04/07/2008 7:36 PM
Posted By ChrisB4 on 04/07/2008 6:34 PM I will look into zoning rules, but once again, I'm not going to sick the county on anyone until I'm sure that I know a rule is being broken. Why would you think of it as "sicking" the county on them? They have the tools and the appropriate mechanisms to investigate whether in fact zoning restrictions are being violated. They get lots of calls like this and are prepared and able to investigate. If there is no infraction, then there has been no foul. If there is, then it is not in your hands, anyway, nor does it really need to be. The zoning officials will enforce to make sure they are up to code. I know you are not arguing, and I didn't want you to think I was arguing with you either, so we're good to go there. Just discussing and trying to feel this thing out. For the most part, in our HOA we usually try to verify when there is a complaint. In some cases, such as the home business or the multi-family thing, it's a little tougher and, quite frankly, we don't have the authority to enter the home and search it (nor would we want to have that authority!) On the two homes that had the additional people living in them, we first turned our notification over to the zoning enforcement department. We didn't "sick" the agency on them, but if they were violating codes, why would you not want that cleared up? There are very good reasons for many of the zoning codes that are in place, not only for the benefit of the people living in the homes, but for the benefit of the community, as well. So if someone is violating, then why would someone not want that addressed? Even though our CC&Rs address it, like I said, we don't have the ability to do the proper investigation and resolution, they do. We did just have a similar thing come up with a home business, though. We had a resident ask us why the people who dropped their kids off at XXXX's house to her "day care center" were not expected to follow the same rules re: speed limit etc, that the rest of the homeowners do. We were like, "day care center?!" Well, if you drive by, which we did, you cannot tell it from any other house. Yes, there are kids outside playing, but how do we know they don't live there? So we did an address search online for local day care centers. Her address popped up. Still, that's really not "proof" since it was an old database. So we sent the letter, "It has been brought to our attention. ... blah blah ... just a reminder that home businesses are restricted by our documents, blah blah, etc. Please cease all daycare operations immediately, if such are occurring, etc etc" We really didn't know what we would do if they ignored the letter, but had contacted our attorney just in case, and he was prepared for the "next steps." The thing is, they didn't ignore the letter! She called all crying and saying she was not running a business, just helping out some friends, watching their kids for free, etc etc etc. We tell her, okay, just ask them to please pay attention to the speed limits, etc. Then we find out, quite by accident, about a month later that she IS running a day care and the state just awarded her her new license/certificate for the year, and it turns out she had been running the day care for the 3 or 4 years she lived here. We sent a second letter regarding the information, and rather than call us back that time, they simply put their home up for sale. She will, however, have to cease and desist the daycare operations while they try to sell their home. She did have one of her neighbors call us and ask us if we would waive the restriction since they are great people who keep their grass cut.

ChrisB4
(West Virginia)

Posts:175

04/07/2008 7:41 PM
Thanks for all the advice and the civil conversation you have given me a few things to think about and look into.

LizzC
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:6

04/07/2008 7:46 PM
wow.....sorry I brought it back to life. I didn't mean to open old wounds here, just thought that some of you might be good sounding boards.

ChrisB4
(West Virginia)

Posts:175

04/07/2008 7:48 PM
LoL, no problem at all. I hoped this conversation has helped you, keep us posted!

LizzC
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:6

04/07/2008 7:53 PM
Well, it has actually. I am heading to my State Reps office in the afternoon I found a copy of FL Statute Chapter 720 HomeOwners Associations to use as a model. It reads just like the Sunshine Act but more!!! So I will now move my fight from in-house rules to State Legislature ;)

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1444

04/07/2008 8:01 PM
Super, Lizz, good luck.

ChristineC1
(Florida)

Posts:8

05/02/2008 5:57 AM
I do know our BOD in FL got in trouble for violating the Sunshine Act.

GilbertM
(Florida)

Posts:2

05/02/2008 7:51 AM
I think a good source for you to check out would be Grey's Compendium.

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