"Permission" to Violate CC&Rs

It seems to me that you should appreciate the fact that this past violator now had the courtesy to inform you of an out of the ordinary situation of replacing carpet, and explained why there would be trash out early. Sounds like you have made lots of progress and violator is aware and trying to follow therules. I don't think you should expert this person to keep rolls of old heavy carpet and icky old padding in the house and then try to drag it out themselves when the carpet laying men would do it for them. Maybe you are a little sensitive because this person indeed has been a violator in the past and it raises the hair on your neck when anything happens with this owner. My opinion is that you over reacted, and instead should have thanked them sincerely for the notification!

Ronald,
You cannot give permission to violate your CC&R's. BUT, in our HOA the BOD does not respond unless another member writes a complaint (Unless a safety issue). So with due diligence you write her a letter saying she isn't in compliance. If your fine schedule is like ours a warning letter goes out first. She shouldn't be replacing carpet again for 10 years ? problem solved.
You really need to try to make everybody happy with a little common sense and a smile on your face. Enjoy !
Larry

RonW, I'm with the some of the others in that she did take the time to inform you which means she knows it is a violation but on the other hand she is asking you to do something you can't(don't) feel comfortable doing (ignoring the CCR/selective enforcement).

What's to say you didn't 'read' the email until after garbage pickup?

You could respond pleasantly (as if she didn't have a history of violations), that you appreciate her contacting you (maybe a breakthough with this homeowner that you don't want to now disencourage), but that you are not allowed to waive enforcement of the CCR's... but since the items are now gone the matter is no longer an issue. You don't know for sure whether the homeowner decided to move them back inside (wink wink) or whether they were actually picked up.

To Postees,
Reads like a battle between conservatives and progressives.

I don't think we are in the position where we can cast doubt of Ron's motivation. The problem seemed to be what is the opinion on the actions he took. I could also guess that maybe Ron wants to know some sort of consensus of the action but certainly not some assumption of his right to do it or his personal reason. He did state this was a repeat offender but he did not state this is why he took action.
The fact is she didn't follow the rules, she was notified and she ignored the notice. Speaking of motivation, the lady that left the carpet could stand a little critisim of her motives, if we are going to make this a guessing game about Ron's motivation. The instance is not earth shaking and maybe it will produce some kind of rule that construction trash and other special trash removal is the responsibility of the contractor and owners of the units. Construction trash must be removed by the contractor daily. Good contractors and workmen don't allow trash to build up on the site, nor should a good carpet company leave behind old carpet, not anymore that an appliance company should leave behind old refrigerators, stoves, washing machines or a/c systems.

Ronald W: ..."I believe it is very important for an HOA to be fair and even in enforcing its covenants..."

I believe you have posted many times prior on the difficulty in enforcing covenants in your community....but, will the violation letter also state a fine may be issued after a hearing?

And, if not, what purpose does the violation letter serve other than lining the attorney's pockets?

This is, in fact, a city ordinance; contractors may not place refuse out for city collection, they must dispose of it properly. She e-mailed back and claimed that it was not a contractor. I suspect it was a non-licensed carpet layer working out of his truck and the price was based on not having to haul the debris away.

In any event, the debris was not only carpet as she claimed, but two mattresses and some othe junk.

PaulM

I’m more than certain Ronald W will answer your question however I felt compelled to address your comments as well.

I particularly don’t like mailing out violation notices, like many however we have anywhere from 35%-85% comply once they receive the violation notice, “warning”. Legally the association must state what happens in the event the issue isn’t resolved, Thus resorting in fines, “self-help”, liens, etc.

I too would prefer not to spend the association’s (MY) money, but that way is “easiest” and has proven to be most sufficient.

You have any other reasonable suggestion, to achieve compliance within an HOA community?

Chuck W.

*********************************************8

I wonder if we all agreed on certain facts our reccomendations to posters requesting information could be more standard.

#1 We all know there are going to be people that will not follow ruloes for any number of reason.

#2 We all know that the large precentage of these people are habitual.

#3 We know all associations have special consideration.

#4 We know there are going to be times when enforcement of these violations is necessary, after considering each case, but there will be a time, enforcement has to be done.

#5 What we don't know, is it possible to have a standard reply that we all could agree on, or those that wanted could use it.

Ron and Paul and Joe all have analytical minds, could we reach a consensus or is it just not worth the trouble.

If we can, we can stick it in a file and just paste it in our replies.

RobertR1

This is the (edited) text of our first violation letter.

"
(Insert date)

Name
Street address
Any City, SC 99999

Dear Association member,

As you know, the properties in Xxxxxx Xxxxxx are governed by covenants and restrictions. Recently, a condition was observed on or near your property at (insert street address here), Any City, SC 99999 that appears to be in violation of these covenants. Specifically:

(Insert violation description here)

This condition is a violation of the following section(s) of the Xxxxxx Xxxxxx Declaration of Restrictions and Easements dated February 21, 1989 and filed with Court of Xxxxxx County:

(Insert covenant here)

Our purpose in monitoring our neighborhood conditions is to maintain the property values and quality of life for all members of the Xxxxxx Xxxxxx Homeowners Association. Please see that this violation is corrected immediately on receipt of this letter and that the necessary steps are taken to prevent a repeat violation. Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated.

If you feel that you have received this notice in error, or if you have any questions or concerns, please mail a copy of this letter along with your questions or concerns to:

Xxxxxx Xxxxxx Homeowners Association, Inc.
P.O. Box 99999
Any City, SC 99999
Attention ACC

Sincerely,

Your Xxxxxx Xxxxxx Board of Directors
and Architectural Control Committee

"

Changes are made as necessary

Chill?

It's my job. It's one of the duties I accepted when I agreed to serve. You don't understand do you? I do not "play favorites". Not sending her a letter when she violates the covenants would be playing favorites.

Would you suggest that city police or code enforcement officers "chill"?

Don't like HOAs? Don't live in one. It's that simple. Can't find a home you like that doesn't have covenants? Why do you think that is? Perhaps it's because the HOA enforces the covenants. Think about it.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion and I appreciate the prayer.

Please tell me, what would you do if a member of your association complained to you about his or her neighbor putting large piles of trash curbside and leaving them there until the collection day and this was a violation of the covenants? Would you ignore the violator or would you ignore the other member?

Ronald W

Every homeowner who complains is not always right or wrong. It looks like you got thru to this lady because she wrote you an email to keep you informed. In this case, I would explain to the complainers that this is a one time event, ask them would you want the old carpet in your home and tell them it will be taken care of at the next trash time. Tell me what would the complainers say if they had to talk to the lady instead of putting that job on you.

I like to get people to work together and look at situations like we all have issues and sometimes we have to overlook and forgive each other. I try to find ways to bring people together and get them to talk it out and most of the time people are reasonable when face to face, hold their tempers and talk it through.

Complainers can get you to react, they tend to have agendas sometimes beyond enforcing violations. I have a couple who complain to me all the time about their neighbor. This couple would like me to cause trouble for their neighbor but I am wise enough to know that this couple, even though he is a "big WIG" in a local company, are causing their own problems.

He smokes cigs and his wife does not like him smoking in the house. So, he sits outside staring all day and all night at his neighbors yard. The angry starers never go away, they argue with each other all the time and they hate living in South Carolina and can not wait to move out. So they like making trouble and he likes thowing his weight around.

Get this. Their neighbors asked this couple for privacy and the couple called the police. Now what kind of person would be offended if you asked them not to stare at them all the time.... This smoke couple are bullies who are caught up in a power trip.

Ronald you seem like a reasonable person but others are pushing your buttons, do not let them. The complainers usually have issues they should be sited for also but they only look at the other guy.

And after all there emails the trash truck just left.

My two cents for what it is worth.

Take care.
Jake

RonaldW: You have posted of your community's trash issues before and it still is rearing its ugly head...

IMO, the problem here is not necessarily 'trash' or 'debris' put at the curb on the wrong day. But, it may be a problem with the wording of your covenants or rules & regs. Any rules which a Board/Committee wants the community to follow must be reasonable at the very least, and make sense in the day to day reality of community living. I don't believe you are being reasonable in this situation with the resident's carpet put at the curb NOT ON TRASH DAY!!!

C'mon, Ron, now I ask you, what would YOU do with your old carpeting being replaced on a day that was NOT your community's trash pick-up day?
As an fyi, usually the old carpeting needs to be cut up in 3' wide strips and placed out for normal trash pick-up. This is a timely process in itself and the ones who are laying the new carpet do not usually do it, but it is the homeowner who is responsible for it.

IMO, old carpet, mattresses, and large limbs from tree cutting (as you have noted in the past) placed at the curb not on trash day are also not weekly trash items--they are the result of 'life situations' which sometimes occur.

Step back, give yourself a break. You don't have to rule with an iron fist, and hold to the written word as it is. Your community needs to come together Board and Residents alike--review your documents, create changes which work for YOUR COMMUNITY'S residents, and take the common sense approach. You and your community will be much better for it. You also might not have to pay your attorney for so many violation letters if the documents themselves are worded to allow flexibility for "unusual life situations".

Great post Paul! If you read my post way above, it is indeed UNREASONABLE to expect bulk trash be placed at the curb the day of pick up. Even cities do not require that. And I think a reasonable judge would also find it unreasonable.
It sounds like Ron has a vendetta against this homeowner because she is a REPEAT VIOLATOR and by golly she is going to toe the line or else. No one is going to change his mind. I'm not even sure why he asked for "thoughts." He became defensive when we did give our "thoughts."
So issue the damn violation and fine, Ron (with due process of course.) That should make your day. I suppose the trash is long gone, so why are we still discussing this? Harold

Ronald

I have some information I would like to share with you that will likely help you. I understand that you sincerely care about doing the job you were elected to do.

If you are interested in emailing or speaking to me is there someway we can get in touch without putting the info. on the forum for eternity.
I sincerely do have some resources that you may not be aware of that you may want to know about.

Jake

DJ1

Have you read the posts from all the others and do you understand the issues here. As President of an HOA I have to watch out for the EGO that says rule hard or else. You and I know that turnover of residents due to HOA heavy handed behavior does no good for any property values including mine.

DJ1 read all the posts and get all the info before you answer.

Jake

DJ1

Maybe I misunderstood but I thought the majority of the posters were saying to back off and not push the lady on this issue. Life is just too short to sweat all this stuff.

Have a blessed day.

Jake

Food for thought.
Ron has said he was sending out a violation notice. The act is done. Now maybe Ron was Biased and maybe he wasn't, we will never know. Suppose this was a State Trooper stopping someone for going through a stop sign, and after stopping the person remember he had just wrote her a warning for the same thing last week. So he gives her a ticket. But wait, lets say he again writes her a warning. Now the lady has broken the law twice, and most of us will say, if it is the first time, give her a warning, and if happens again she should get a ticket, and the officer was wrong in letting her go the second time.

Now, step back and look at what happened. We prejudged the officer, because we were biased, and we all are to some degree. But look further and think about a thing called "Officer discretion." Enforcement officer do have this option at times, in this example it applies.
So, those that said she should have gotten a ticket the first time were wrong, those that said she should have gotten a ticket the second time were wrong, and those that said the Officer was wrong in either case were wrong, at least in a practical sense or applied sense. The Officer could well have been wrong in both cases but we are not the judge. Do you think you will change Ron's opinion? Do I think I could make you change your opinion? No, to both questions. If the officer had a partner riding with him they could argue about it and one might even shoot the other, who knows. And if the violator happened to be the officers mother, there is no officer that can stand the weight of the guilt load your mother can put on you if she thinks you are mean to her.

Ron: Have questions which may assist in your dilemma. What does your city ordinance state re trash pick-up.

- what is the earliest time trash can be put out for pick-up on Thursdays?
- what type of trash can be put out? bulk and/or weekly?
- does the city also provide seasonal pickup times (2x year, 3x year?) for large items--furniture/mattresses/refrig/TV, etc.?
- how do other associations in your 'city' handle large/bulk trash items for city pickup?

DJ1,
Good info and you ask a valid question.

I have to say yes, it does apply to HOA's, we do it daily. But, whether this is legal or not, "who knows". As I posted before it is fast becoming my conviction that any Covenants that is written and maintained by an HOA and they are used in any fashion to manage the property are valid, and out of the states jurisdiction. I won't mention criminal or civil acts, but certainly anything that a city or town can enforce, the HOA can also enforce their rules. In a practical sense I have never seen anything different about HOA or townships, etc. You can't enforce the town laws out side the town, same as HOA's. Everyone uses discretion every day, and some legal or quasi legal opinion will not change that, nor will you get arrested for it. You might get arrested for performing the act but I never heard of anyone getting arrested because he elected to do the deed. If the Board or Homeowner neglect to fullfill these agreed up conditions, they can be made answerable to the other homeowners, who then use their discretion. Oh, and I don't believe our documents are legal untill proven legal, and that may well be a case by case operation.

Now, ten people will prove me wrong........woe is me!

Sorry Michele is was just the Wikipedia description. Wasn't intended as an 'official' source but more a better explanation than I could state. Isn't a matter of evaluating it but feel free.

Jake, I'd appreciate a personal email from you. We are concerned about this very problem in my Myrtle Beach community. Perhaps you can shed some insight to me.

[email protected]. Anyone else can email as well.