BryanG1
(Florida)
Posts:43
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| 10/08/2007 10:38 AM |
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We have a few residents that insist on placing basketball hoops in the street, near the sidewalk. This is a clear violation of our deed restrictions.
We have tried on many occasions to get them to move them, but they refuse.
We've tried fining them, but the refuse to pay, and we're already aware that they're, essentially, not obligated to do so. We could go after them in small claims court for it, but would it be worth it for a few hundred in fines?
Anyway, we're at wits end here, and wanted to know if anyone had any ideas on how to move forward in this situation? Can we impound the hoops as we would a vehicle for, say, parking on the street? |
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BryanG1
(Florida)
Posts:43
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| 10/08/2007 10:45 AM |
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| By the way, I would like to add that the streets are county owned and maintained. |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:4686
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| 10/08/2007 10:47 AM |
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| Bryan, why do you think they are not obligated to pay? This depends on your declaration of CC&Rs. It may be that you may be allowed to assess a fine against their property; esculate the amount of the fine each time another violation occurs; file a lien against their property; and more! If you are not allowed to fine you can establish rules which make them 'members not in good standing' and take away their rights to voting privilges, use of amenities, etc. |
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BryanG1
(Florida)
Posts:43
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| 10/08/2007 11:41 AM |
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| From what I understand, you cannot place a lien on someones property if they don't pay fines placed them by the HOA, so in a sense, they are not really obligated to. You could fine them 'til the cows come home, but from what I understand, you'd have to go to SCC to get it. |
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BryanG1
(Florida)
Posts:43
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| 10/08/2007 11:43 AM |
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This place needs edit buttons...
I would like to add that, from what I understand, is that case law - at least in Florida - says you can't place a lien on someones property if they refuse to pay fines...Just like the state can't place a lien on your car if you refuse to pay a parking or speeding ticket. |
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DavidC10
(California)
Posts:1
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| 10/08/2007 12:11 PM |
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Hi,
Some cities have laws that prevent someone from placing personal property on public streets, may be the sidewalk as well. So its worth while to contact the city or police dept. and check it out. Good luck. |
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JosephM4
(Louisiana)
Posts:1
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| 10/08/2007 12:23 PM |
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| Try calling your local police or sheriffs dept.they may have the power to have them removed from the street |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 10/08/2007 12:39 PM |
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Brian,
Look into totaling the fines and make them as a "special assessment" against the property. Then it is lienable. Worked for us . |
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PaulM
(Pennsylvania)
Posts:1347
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| 10/08/2007 12:53 PM |
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BryanG1: Since your streets are county owned and maintained, I am surprised that the police have not been called and the residents cited. Are these basketball hoops the kind that are on a large frame which sits on a flat surface?
If they are being placed in the street are they infringing on vehicle parking and vehicle right-of-way? |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 10/08/2007 1:34 PM |
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| Bryan - What state are you located in? |
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MicheleD
(Kentucky)
Posts:4491
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| 10/08/2007 1:39 PM |
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I our city/county metro area, even if the basketball goals are NOT in the street, but placed in the easement between the sidewalk and the street our local Inspections, Permits and Licenses enforcement branch will order their removal. Why? Because when in use, the people playing will HAVE to be in the street.
So I would also check with your local code enforcement organization to see what assistance you might be afforded from that end.
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BradP
(Kansas)
Posts:2491
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| 10/08/2007 2:04 PM |
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Bryan:
I was going to touch on what several others already have. I would be willing to bet their is an ordinance in your area about having them in the streets, it is a safety issue quite honestly. Investigate that end and put the enforcement part on the local municipality, not the HOA. |
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MikeS1
Posts:0
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| 10/08/2007 2:07 PM |
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| Usually the lot lines are just behind the sidewalk when the streets are county owned, maintained by the state or county; and the sidewalks are usually county owned as well. There's definately a safety issue here and more juridisctions don't allow folks to place their basketball goals on county or state maintained right of ways. |
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BryanG1
(Florida)
Posts:43
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| 10/08/2007 8:18 PM |
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After doing a search of county ordinances on the Municode website and then contacting code enforcement, we've found that the basketball hoop is in violation of a county ordinance and that code enforcement will be stopping by in the near future.
Thanks for everyones help and suggestions! |
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JohnC10
(Arizona)
Posts:106
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| 10/08/2007 10:16 PM |
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| Every day is one step closer to communism. |
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KathyS
(California)
Posts:142
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| 10/09/2007 8:14 AM |
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In some States, the law specifically says you cannot make fines assessments which may become a lien against the home which in turn could lead to foreclosure.
Brian needs to read the law of his State and not take the word of either his governing documents or suggestions on here. Both could be wrong. |
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BryanG1
(Florida)
Posts:43
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| 10/09/2007 8:54 AM |
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Florida Statutes state:
A fine shall not become a lien against a parcel. In any action to recover a fine, the prevailing party is entitled to collect its reasonable attorney's fees and costs from the nonprevailing party as determined by the court.
But it doesn't say it can't become a special assessment...might have to talk to the Attorney General to get an opinion on this one, or see if there is one already. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 10/09/2007 9:10 AM |
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Failure to pay "special Assessments by the Association can become a lien on a property in Florida. Wording in the CC&Rs should have unpaid fines in total transferd to become a special assessment. The attorney can tell you how to do this. These non compliers have got to have concequences for failure to follow the rules and pay up when they don't. I feel that this is the number 1 issue that all associations have to deal with. If you cannot live by the system that we have in place, then don't buy into this type of community. They want to enjoy the perks and amenities but not be responsible for behaviors while inside the membership. |
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BryanG1
(Florida)
Posts:43
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| 10/09/2007 9:16 AM |
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Posted By JohnC10 on 10/08/2007 10:16 PM
Every day is one step closer to communism.
No. When someone moves into a deed restricted community, they agree to follow the rules put forth by the members of that community. If all but one follows the rules, then they have to be enforced...otherwise, why have them? |
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LindaC3
Posts:0
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| 10/09/2007 9:34 AM |
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| This very wording was brought up at one of our monthly meetings......We were told by our Attorney that while the HOA may " assess" a fine against the homeowner, Fla. is very clear that an unpaid "fine" may not be used as a tool to file a lien against the property.... A " special assessment " is just a play on words and at the end of the day it is still a " fine ". He also stated that we would be opening ourselves up to a lawsuit if we decided to use this play on words and file a lien under false pretenses... He cited a case that where indeed an HOA called a fine a special assessment... the homeowner filed a suit against the BOD and won... I am not sure if it was here in Florida or another state that has the same wording in their statutes.....LindaC |
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BryanG1
(Florida)
Posts:43
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| 10/09/2007 11:05 AM |
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| Perhaps I'll talk to the board about getting an official opinion from the Florida Attorney General. I checked on the AG's website, but could not find anything regarding HOA fines. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 10/09/2007 11:40 AM |
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Bryan,
Go to Florida Statute 720;305. That is the fining area of the statute. |
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JohnC10
(Arizona)
Posts:106
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| 10/09/2007 3:18 PM |
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| Banning portable basketball hoops from a public street is borderline communism. |
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MicheleD
(Kentucky)
Posts:4491
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| 10/09/2007 5:05 PM |
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You seriously need to get a dictionary out and revisit your definition of "communism."
It may be "tyranny" or a "dictatorship," but so be it.
I don't want to be the one that has either me or a member of my family facing manslaughter or some other charge in connection with running over some kid who's playing in the street cuz his Mommy and Daddy didn't have the sense to put their sports equipment in a safer place.
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KevinK1
Posts:34
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| 10/09/2007 5:45 PM |
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| Taking over the street with a basketball hoop and using kids as a shield is terrorism. |
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AS3
(Maryland)
Posts:3
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| 10/09/2007 5:45 PM |
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| If you have By-Laws to follow, you may want to consider amending your By-Laws restricting this activity in the street. This will give you the right to fine and place a lien on their property. PEACE OFFERING: Make a space for them to play ball without endangering themselves or others. |
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DonnaS
(Tennessee)
Posts:5671
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| 10/10/2007 5:00 AM |
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Michele,
The above poster uses that word quite often. Glad you sent a definition. He seems like the kind of guy who doesn't like rules and regulations. We all want freedom but rules are for the close proximity of living in a developement and for the people who can't figure out what that should entail
I have a statement that I gave at one of our homeowners meeting where the hoops were being passionately discussed and would like to share it. Some background for you all.
Our developement consists of 565 homes. About 65% of these homes are older couples who do not have kids at home. The homes are between $6oo,000 to $850,000 . Unfortunately, the developer did not allow any play areas for the kids who are there.
The basketball hoops got to be a big issue. We allowed them to be the portable type and had to be used in the driveways which were long enough for this use. They had to be layed down along the sides of the houses when not in use.
Pretty soon, they were starting to remain in sight when not being used, sometimes 4 then 10 then 20. The soccer Moms got in a bunch and got pretty vocal about how much trouble it was to remove them each time
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A neighbor complained about the covenant, which said "NONE IN SIGHT" He was right on that issue so we started to ask them to be taken down. The wars began. It has been resolved since by diligence of the P.M. and the Board members.
BUT HERE IS WHAT I SAID TO THE MEMBERSHIP.
"THIS COMMUNITY IS MADE UP OF YOUNG FAMILIES AND COUPLES WITHOUT CHILDREN. WE SEEM ALWAYS TO BE DEALING WITH ISSUES THAT CONCERN THE CHILDREN MOST TIMES. LET US NOT FORGET THAT THERE ARE 65% OF THE HOMES OCCUPIED HERE WITH OLDER ADULTS. THEY HAVE RIGHTS TO PEACE AND QUIET AND OFTEN WE DON'T LISTEN TO THEIR SIDE. THEY ARE THE MEMBERS THAT MAKE UP THE BOARDS, THE COMMITTEES AND MOST OF THE VOLUNTEERS. BUT YET THEY ARE IGNORED ON THEIR REQUESTS FOR SOME CONSIDERATION TO THEIR DESIRE FOR A PEACEFUL PLACE TO LIVE."
Soon, the hoops started to get back in place. We sent a feww letters out but it happily is over.
Donna |
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BryanG1
(Florida)
Posts:43
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| 10/10/2007 8:15 AM |
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Well, as the board, if we get a complaint, we have to act on it.
From a personal standpoint, I don't really care if it's in the street since the street is a cul-de-sac. But, like I said, as the board we have to uphold the CC&R, whether we agree with it or not. If we don't, then why have them? And if we tell one they can but another they can't, that's selective enforcement. |
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HaroldS
(Arizona)
Posts:904
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| 10/10/2007 11:17 AM |
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Here is a recently adopted Arizona statue involving children playing in the street, which allows a portable sign to be placed to warn drivers.
"D. Notwithstanding any provision in the community documents, an association shall not prohibit the use of cautionary signs regarding children if the signs are used and displayed as follows:
1. The signs are displayed in residential areas only.
2. The signs are removed within one hour of children ceasing to play.
3. The signs are displayed only when children are actually present within fifty feet of the sign.
4. The temporary signs are no taller than three feet in height.
5. The signs are professionally manufactured or produced."
Harold |
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RonaldW
(South Carolina)
Posts:901
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| 10/10/2007 5:09 PM |
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Posted By JohnC10 on 10/09/2007 3:18 PM
Banning portable basketball hoops from a public street is borderline communism.
Who let you in here? Why don't you go somewhere else and play and let us have a serious discussion on this issue?
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Ron
SC |
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