"commercial" vehicles > HOA Forum

Unanswered

Active Topics

Forums

Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions

Subject: "commercial" vehicles

Prev Next

You are not authorized to post a reply.

Author

Messages

WinkB
(California)

Posts:1

10/06/2007 2:53 PM
I'm getting letters from my community manager about my vehicles. There is NOTHING in the rules that says anything about "commercial" vehicles. He's stating that its a "nuisance". Ive talked with both next door neighbors and they dont think its a nuisance. He's also sighting some county zoning section that says "nothing" either. When he came and talked with me, I told him that I was going to park the larger vehicle on the side of my house just as many recreational vehicle owners do. The next day he informed me that he had discussed the idea with the board and it was turned down. Question... Is it in a third party community managers job description to request anything from the board on behalf of a homeowner? I know if I had asked in person with pictures, drawings and details I would have been approved. Thanks, WINK

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1702

10/06/2007 4:49 PM
WinkB said: "Ive talked with both next door neighbors and they dont think its a nuisance. " With all due respect, what your immediate neighbors may define as a "nuisance" is beside the point. Generally the governing documents of your community will give some discretion to the board of directors to clarify or define ambiguity in the CC&Rs, and the board term "nuisance" would probably fall within that category. It may or may not be that way in yours, you would need to review them to find out. We've had many residents come to us with "signed" approvals of neighbors when the resident wants to do something that is either outright not allowed in the documents or is ambiguous. Often a neighbor will "agree" with another neighbor, even if they really don't like what that person is asking because they don't want to have any problems with the neighbor. Also, I don't know of any documents that say you can't do one thing or another, except in cases where you get your neighbors to agree that they don't mind. Aside from that, it might be in your best interest to push the board to provide you in black & white their definition of "nuisance" so that you can be prepared for any defense of your vehicle. Just out of curiosity, what exactly does your vehicle look like. Or rather, what your VEHICLES look like, because if I'm reading correctly, you have 2 that could be defined as commercial vehicles?

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:3701

10/07/2007 9:19 AM
WINK, if you post more specific information perhaps posters can provide more help. You can also use the 'search' to find posts which relate to your situation. You are welcome to contact me for my private comments. Perhaps some posters will comment on the following hypothetical case: YOU are responsible for code enforcement in your Covenant controlled cummunity of lovely medium priced single family residential homes. A homeowner phones you and complains that a neighbor is running a business out of their home and the owner has their company trucks parked in front of their house which is creating a nuisance. You investigate and find two pickup trucks parked curbside with a construction company's signage painted on each. There is a car and a large enclosed hauling truck filling the driveway. The truck has a large white box, like a bread truck. It is about 8'high and covers most of the length of the driveway. An overhead garage door is open and from the street you see that there are no vehicles parked in the three car garage. There appears to be a equipment and supplies in the garage which could be used in their business. The Covenants have a nuisance clause which states: "No noxious or offensive activity shall be carried on upon any lot nor shall anything be done thereon which may be or may become an annoyance or nuisance to the neighborhood." There is a County code which does not allow commercial vehicles to be parked in residential subdivions. The code describes commercial vehicles and it includes the following: "vehicles of a type that are commonly used for the delivery of ice cream, milk, bread, fruit or similar vending suppy commercial or delivery trucks. This category shall include vehicles of a similar nature which are also of a type commonly used by electrical, plumbing, heating and cooling, and other construction oriented contractors" Which vehicles are allowed to be at the property and where may they be parked?

Roger Borcherding Official HOATalk.com Sponsor DARCO Property Management (Colorado) (303) 925-0150 *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1702

10/07/2007 10:26 AM
First and foremost, after I received the call from the resident I would contact our local Code Enforcement entity and report the possibility of a business being run out of a home in a subdivision. We have very strict zoning ordinances about where certain businesses can operate. Since I'm not an expert in the area, and our Inspections, Permits and Licenses people are (IPL), then I would turn the matter over to them to investigate and/or handle. A good friend of mine does NOT live in a deed restricted community, but used to run a small appliance repair company out of his home. He had several repair vans parked in his driveway and his garage was full of the equipment used in his business. Someone reported him to IPL and he had to cease doing business out of his home and has since rented space at a strip mall to run his business out of. Second, the two pickup trucks would only classify as "commercial" in our subdivision if they have company signage on them, in addition to also being in violation of the signage restriction AND the no-parking on the street restriction, so if they moved them to the driveway, they would still violate the signage restriction. We in fact have that situation occur here, where a homeowner has a pickup truck that has the name of the electric company for which he works on it. When he parks the truck in his driveway, he covers the company logo and name with a magnetic thingie that is the same color as his truck. The larger vehicle in your hypothetical, in our subdivision, would definitely classify as commercial and would be in violation even if parked in the driveway. If he parks it in the garage, we are good to go.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

10/07/2007 2:19 PM
Regardless of zoning laws or covenant's it's virtually impossible to effectively prohibit "business" in residential neighborhoods. Think of the person buying and selling items through on-line auctions. Think of the person selling Avon or similar activities. How about the person telecommuting from home? The local kid mowing lawns or selling lemonade? It is possible to regulate such activities by requiring that there is no visible business activity, signs, excess traffic, noise, smells, etc. The definition of "nuisance" is subjective, not objective so there is room for negotiation. To the OP, take your issue up with the board of directors or ACC. Leave the middleman out of it. Take your photos and written consent of your neighbors (to whom it would be a nuisance) and be prepared to negotiate and compromise. Be calm and polite.

Ron SC

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:3701

10/08/2007 9:00 AM
Michele, the larger vehicle was given demensions which makes it too big to fit into the garage (unless it has 10' high clearance). Now what? Do you also allow the two pickups to be parked in the garge without covering up the signage?

Roger Borcherding Official HOATalk.com Sponsor DARCO Property Management (Colorado) (303) 925-0150 *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1702

10/08/2007 1:37 PM
If the pickups are in the garage, parked there, then it sounds as though that satisfies the deed restrictions. And, in spite of what was said earlier, home businesses can be regulated. If your CC&Rs says no business, then you can proceed with notice to him about that, but I would also seriously look into local zoning regulations and provide that department with the details so that they can investigate and proceed as needed. We have seen successful resolution of many home-run businesses that run contrary to the zoning regulations in our municipality.

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:3701

10/09/2007 8:47 AM
Thanks for your responses Michele and Ronald. I presented this hpypothetical example because complaints of running a business out of a residence are common in Covenant controlled communities. Often the complaint originates because vehicles are creating a nuisance. Several vehicles were used in this example to made the violation obvious. It can no longer be argued to be subjective. In addition, the hypothetical deals with storing "commercial" vehicles in a residential neighborhood - has become a common complaint. Parking on the street, which is against restrictions in many common interest communities, was noted by Michele. She also discussed how signage on the pickups would be handled in her subdivision. The larger vehicle is commonly be defined as a commercial vehicle. However, "Commercial" must be defined. In this hypothetical it was; and all three vehicles are defined as commercial. My answer to the question "Which vehicles are allowed to be at the property and where may they be parked?" I would request the two pickups be parked in the garage; or if the garage is full of vehicles then in the driveway with the signage covered (as stated by Michele). For the larger truck the owner may submit an ACC request, which if approved, would modify their property to provide storage which is out of sight. While technically they are still commercial vehicles there would be no evidence which could be observed and documented by a code enforcement person. Those vehicles which can not meet these requirements must be removed from the property. Michele posted an example - rent office space. That can be much less expensive than legal costs. Following is how code enforcement might proceed. 1) After confirming the valid violation of restriction to the Covenants a digital photo is taken during each inspections to document the status of the violation. 2) Mail an information notice to the owner advising of the Covenants and County restrictions and requesting compliance. 3) If the violation is not corrected mail a violation notice to the owner. Also, try to talk personally with the owner. 4) If resolution would require modifications to the property advise the owner that they are required to complete an ACC request form and receive written approval prior to doing any modification. 5) Include the violation in reports to the Board of Directors with the current status of resolution. 6) Follow up on requests made by the Board to assist in obtaining correction to the violation. 7) In this particular example, since the hypothetical included County code, coordinate with the County's code enforcement officer. I hope this hypothetical will assist those of you who have been asking questions over and over about running a business out of the home, parking in the street, and dealing with commercial vehicles

Roger Borcherding Official HOATalk.com Sponsor DARCO Property Management (Colorado) (303) 925-0150 *See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal

KevinK1

Posts:34

10/09/2007 5:50 PM
In my county, dual wheel commercial vehicles are banned from residential neighborhoods. When loaded to capacity they destroy the residential roads which were not built to withstand those loads on a regular basis.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

10/10/2007 7:04 AM
Posted By MicheleD on 10/08/2007 1:37 PM ............. And, in spite of what was said earlier, home businesses can be regulated. The only ones you can regulate are the ones you can see. You can't regulate the person telecommuting and you can't regulate the one buying and selling on on-line auctions. You can't inspect the inside of the homes for business activity. And if you go after a person who mows lawns part time but keeps his equipment out of sight, what do you do if he complains about his neighbor selling Avon or Mary Kay cosmetics? And what if she denies that she's running a business from her home even though you believe she is? And would you stop a child from setting up a lemonade stand? Selling Girl Scout cookies? Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of seeing large trucks or pickups with large plastic dead bugs on the roof parked in my neighborhood, but you have to be practical and choose your battles. And go with your CC&Rs.

Ron SC

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1702

10/10/2007 4:26 PM
So Ronald, what is your point on nit picking this? The types of businesses that can be regulated are very clear and delineated. You're getting into the arena of what the definition of "is" is. IF a home business is such that it can be established the business 1) is the type restricted, and 2) can be proven, then what's your point? We had a woman running a catering business out of her home. If no one knew it was there, then she "got away" with it, but once the business becomes known, then it can be and WAS shut down. We do pick our battles. If the activity is against the CC&Rs (or local zoning), and we have been made aware of it, we enforce. We don't enforce against the ones we don't know about or can't prove. Sounds pretty simple to me. If someone is cooking meth in their home, we wouldn't do anything about it -- because we wouldn't know. Does that mean the activity was somehow "not enforceable" because we didn't "know" about it? An Avon or Mary Kay business (someone anyone who is "self employed") is not automatically acting counter to the CC&Rs or zoning restrictions. If that self-employment would require customers, overflow parking, signage, etc, then we've got an issue. The caterer was fine until she got so big that she required 3 vans with signage, almost 10 employees to help her prepare for the events, and a few more things. Here is the actual detail. Hope this helps: Home Occupations Home occupations or business are allowed as an accessory use in residential zones, if it is conducted by the resident of the property, if it is subordinate to the residential use and if it meets the additional restrictions summarized below. Employees Only the residents of the property and one non-resident are permitted to be employees of the business. Two additional non-resident employees (up to three total) may be allowed with a Conditional Use Permit (CUP), for sites greater than 3 acres. Exterior Appearance No change to the exterior appearance of the dwelling is permitted. Neither the home occupation nor its activity may be visible from the public right of way and adjacent properties. Number of Customers, Clients and Pupils Permitted No more than two customers or pupils may be permitted on the property at any one time except an occupant of a single family dwelling may provide; Day care services for no more than eight individuals at one time Group or professional therapy for no more than four individuals at one time, scheduled to avoid overlap and parking conflicts Signage No signage associated with the home occupation is permitted. Signs on vehicles associated with the business are permitted as long as they meet all applicable regulations. Hours of Operation 1. Any home occupation that accommodates customers, clients or pupils on the site shall not be permitted to operate between the hours of 9 P.M. and 7 A.M. 2. No nonresident employee may work at a home occupation between the hours of 9 P.M. and 7 A.M. Parking & Deliveries Parking must be provided on the existing driveway or off-street parking area. IPL will determine if sufficient parking is provided. On street parking may be used only if a parking study demonstrates that nearby residents will not be adversely affected. Deliveries may not be made using tractor trailers. No more than two commercial deliveries (e.g. UPS, Federal Express, US Postal Service Express Mail) may be made in any 24 hour period. Permitted Locations and Maximum Size/Area The operation of a home occupation will be limited to a dwelling unit (including the basement and garage) and one roofed and fully enclosed accessory structure located on the site. The area occupied by the home occupation may not exceed the limits outline below: A home occupation situated on a lot of less than one acre may occupy no more than 25% of the floor area of the residence of 500 square feet in area, whichever is less. A home occupation situated on a lot greater than one acre may occupy no more than 25 % of floor area or 1,000 square feet, whichever is less. NOTE: The maximum area calculation will include the space in which the home occupation is conducted as well as any areas that the home occupation’s employees or clients typically use including hallways, bathrooms and kitchens. When activity associated with the home occupation is proposed to occur in an accessory structure, its floor area is included in the calculation of the residence’s floor area. All activities associated with a home occupation are prohibited from occurring outside of the residence and its accessory structure. Other Requirements No equipment or process associated with a home occupation shall create any noise, vibrations, odors, dust or electrical interference that is detectable (off the lot is the home occupation is conducted in a single family dwelling unit or outside the dwelling unit if the home occupation is conducted in something other than a single dwelling unit.) No equipment that is clearly associated with the home occupation may be stored outside the residence, except for children’s play equipment. Sale of agricultural goods that are grown on the site is permitted. More than one home occupation may be allowed within a dwelling unit as long as the cumulative impact of the home occupations does not exceed the maximum limits (i.e., on employees, maximum size/area, number of customers, etc.) set by this section. Home Occupation License A home occupation license is required for home occupations that serve customers, clients, pupils, at the site and/or have one or more non-resident employees. Contact Planning and Design Services at 574-6230 for information about license requirements. Prohibited Home Occupations * Adult Entertainment * Auto or Other Vehicle Sales, Service, Rental or Repairs (excluding minor repairs made to vehicles owned or leased by residents of the site) * Bed & Breakfast * Daycare Facility (except as otherwise permitted) * Clubs * Dentistry Drive-In Facilities * Eating and Drinking Establishments * Group Instruction or Therapy with More than 4 students or clients on the premises at a time * Gun Dealers * Health Spas (excluding personal trainers/massage therapist) * Hospital and Clinics * Hotels/Motels * Kennels * Large Appliance Repair * Lawn Mower Repair * Machine Shop * Medical Examinations or Treatment * Plasmapheresis * Retail Advertising * Retail and Wholesale Sales * Whole Blood Facilities * Manufacture of Goods * Distribution of Goods (excluding mail order operation) * Storage of Good to be Offered for Sale * Display of Goods * Any use or activity that does not meet the requirements of this Section * Escort Services

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:2833

10/10/2007 4:35 PM
Michelle, We have many folks who operate home businesses in our developement but the entire thing is if such a business creates any additional traffic or any disruption to the surrounding residents, then it is illegal. My husband does solar drafting out of bedroom #3. No noise, or bothering of the neighbors. Probably 30% of work is done from home offices now days and it is getting more normal. BUT, the information that you listed is very informative and perfectly sensible for community living. Where do you find all of this stuff? Thanks for taking the time to post it. You must be a speed typist.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

10/10/2007 5:02 PM
Posted By MicheleD on 10/10/2007 4:26 PM So Ronald, what is your point on nit picking this? .............. Our Declaration of Restrictions and Easements states in part "All lots shall be used for residential purposes and no business or business activity shall be carried on upon any Lot at any time ............... " Nit picking? It's pretty clear and it's also unenforceable as written unless one has the power to enter residences without notice to search for business activity. County or other ordinances or zoning have no effect here unless they are more strict or limiting. Documents for other HOAs may have different wording.

Ron SC

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1702

10/10/2007 6:10 PM
No. you truly are nit picking. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I see it. That's just my opinion, but I feel it is accurate. You are talking about enforcing against something being done that is invisible to anyone. The CC&Rs are absolutely enforceable if you can distinguish and determine that a business is being run. But to just state that they are unenforceable is not accurate.

RonaldW
(South Carolina)

Posts:900

10/10/2007 6:20 PM
Posted By MicheleD on 10/10/2007 6:10 PM No. you truly are nit picking. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I see it. That's just my opinion, but I feel it is accurate. You are talking about enforcing against something being done that is invisible to anyone. The CC&Rs are absolutely enforceable if you can distinguish and determine that a business is being run. But to just state that they are unenforceable is not accurate. OK, I'm not going to convince you. But I'm not going to be able to stop my neighbor from selling Mary Kay products either.

Ron SC

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:1702

10/11/2007 2:03 PM
Nor should you be able to.

SusanJ3
(South Carolina)

Posts:61

10/28/2007 10:38 AM
We had a similar circumstance in that a man with an events business was storing his tables and tents in the closed garage. We only knew about it when he would off load after a party. Nice guy, nice responsible renter. Someone complained simply because she could.

StevenW3
(Oklahoma)

Posts:64

06/08/2008 1:25 PM
Our community has a number of commercial vehicles (those with company logos plastered all over them and one guy that brings home his home depot semi-tractor to load up and sit for 12 hours before a run). Both the Pres/VP state they will NOT enforce the covenant because of the following: 1. we are a working class neighborhood 2. many homeowners are using their garage for storage and can't park the vehicles in their garages. So complaints even from Board members themselves go un-enforced!

BrianB
(California)

Posts:1741

06/08/2008 4:10 PM
i will side with michele on this, with the caveat that i believe rules should be better written to stop the behavior desired to be stopped (ie, just say "no more than 2 deliveries per day, no excess traffic, no signs, and no disruptions to the normal flow of the neighborhood" if that's what you want to stop, don't say "no businesses allowed") If bob runs a repair shop in his garage, with cars lined up in the driveway, and a sign in his yard for Bob's auto shop, then the board can enforce the rules against home based businesses based on the evidence in front of them. they can also investigate based on a complaint, or course. If i run an ebay business selling CD copies, with no outward signs, then the board can enforce the rules against home based businesses IF THEY GET A COMPLAINT that leads to an investigation. granted, it is less likely that someone will complain about my business than Bob's, but hey: the rule is no business, so both of us must cease. the difference is the likelihood of an investigation. so, one moral of the story here is that if you run a quiet little business out of your home, don't tell everyone. Cause the next time the board nails your neighbor for a violation, they may feed YOU to the dogs to mitigate their hurt.

You are not authorized to post a reply.

Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > "commercial" vehicles