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Subject: Budget and assessment increase documented in minutes?
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JeffT
(Maryland)

Posts:76


12/26/2019 4:25 PM  
Our docs state that the budget must be adopted by the BOD in an open annual meeting of the members. My question is when does this get put into the minutes?

I think that it is a BOD action and it should be documented in the minutes of the next board meeting. The Condo law states that executive session must be log in the next BOD minutes. Thing like topics discussed, time and date of meeting, etc. The by-laws state actions taken by the board can be taken outside the BOD meeting must be logged in the minutes of the next BOD meeting.

Others are stating that it has to go into the the minutes a year from now at the next annual member meeting. Basically this means that the monthly assessment bill can show up with an increase with now explanation as to why. Although they do send out a proposed budget with info in it, but that is not adopted and final
AugustinD


Posts:2335


12/26/2019 6:00 PM  
Perhaps: Because only the BOD adopts the budget, then the governing documents has a kind of BOD-meeting-within-a-Members-meeting going on. Which is farcical. I suggest having separate BOD meeting Minutes and Members' meeting Minutes. Then at the next BOD meeting, the BOD approves the minutes where the BOD adopts the budget.
AugustinD


Posts:2335


12/26/2019 6:05 PM  
If your HOA is a condo, I think the following from the Maryland Condo Act trumps your governing documents when it comes to where (BoD meeting or Members' meeting) the Budget is adopted.
"(c) Adoption. — The budget shall be adopted at an open meeting of the [BoD] or any other body
to which the [BoD] delegates responsibilities for preparing and adopting the budget." See https://sos.maryland.gov/Documents/CondominiumBooklet.pdf
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2851


12/27/2019 5:43 AM  
Even though this is an annual meeting, this doesn't have to stop the board from making a motion and voting to adopt the budget. You said people get a copy of the upcoming year's budget before the meeting, so if they read it, they know an increase is on the way. After the vote is taken, it could be reaffirmed at the next board meeting (we hold ours after the annual), so it's noted in two spots - the annual meeting minutes (which technically won't be approved until next year) and the board meeting that followed it.


JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9041


12/27/2019 9:08 AM  
Our docs say we have to notify the owners of any dues increase (via presenting the upcoming years budget) on or before 12/01 and it becomes effective on 01/01. Our Annual Meeting is not until April so if we announced a dues increase at that time it would not be effective until the next year.

Our Annual Meeting Minutes are presented at the next Annual Meeting, not before. Could we present them earlier? Yes.

JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9041


12/27/2019 3:01 PM  
Posted By SheliaH on 12/27/2019 5:43 AM
Even though this is an annual meeting, this doesn't have to stop the board from making a motion and voting to adopt the budget. You said people get a copy of the upcoming year's budget before the meeting, so if they read it, they know an increase is on the way. After the vote is taken, it could be reaffirmed at the next board meeting (we hold ours after the annual), so it's noted in two spots - the annual meeting minutes (which technically won't be approved until next year) and the board meeting that followed it.






Shelia

When would the dues increase become effective?
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2851


12/28/2019 7:20 AM  
The effective date should be part of the motion made to approve the increase, so they could use the annual meeting date, but that could be tricky depending on what the fiscal year begins. For example, if it's January 1, I think homeowners should have a 30 day notice, so the annual meeting would have to be held on or before Dec. 1

which got me thinking - it may be everyone is thinking of a regular annual where you have board election. Who says you can only have one annual meeting? Why not schedule a special board meeting where the budget will be discussed and voted upon, and urge all homeowners to attend? You can start the meeting with that discussion and vote, and continue e I th other business. If board meetings are already open to members, what's stopping them from attending this one, especially if they've received information on the new budget and therefore know what's about to happen?If

By the the way, I also googled annual meeting minutes - according the robertsrules.forumflash.com, you can approve annual meeting minutes at the next regular board meeting if that meeting will be held within a quarterly time interval. If there isn't a regular meeting at that time, a special committee can be appointed for that purpose.



SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2851


12/28/2019 7:29 AM  
More googling on when motions take effect - that can happen immediately unless the motion includes a provision referring action. That's why it's important to pay attention to how the motion is stated - if someone states it incorrectly, someone else should raise a point of order about it.

Otherwise it the vote continues, that's the correct wording and the Secretary should note it as such. If someone catches the mistake later, he or she should suggest that portion of the minutes be corrected before they've approved. This is also from robertsrules.forumflash.com
AugustinD


Posts:2335


12/28/2019 8:41 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 12/28/2019 7:20 AM
By the the way, I also googled annual meeting minutes - according the robertsrules.forumflash.com, you can approve annual meeting minutes at the next regular board meeting if that meeting will be held within a quarterly time interval.


I would like to see the citation or link for this. Those who are new to Robert's Rules often think that phrases like "the assembly" refers to the entire membership of the HOA. Not so. "The assembly" refers to the entire membership only when a meeting of the membership is taking place or being discussed. When a board meeting or board decision is underway, "the assembly" refers to the board.
KellyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:1449


12/28/2019 9:19 AM  
Posted By JeffT on 12/26/2019 4:25 PM
Our docs state that the budget must be adopted by the BOD in an open annual meeting of the members. My question is when does this get put into the minutes?

I think that it is a BOD action and it should be documented in the minutes of the next board meeting. The Condo law states that executive session must be log in the next BOD minutes. Thing like topics discussed, time and date of meeting, etc. The by-laws state actions taken by the board can be taken outside the BOD meeting must be logged in the minutes of the next BOD meeting.

Others are stating that it has to go into the the minutes a year from now at the next annual member meeting. Basically this means that the monthly assessment bill can show up with an increase with now explanation as to why. Although they do send out a proposed budget with info in it, but that is not adopted and final




Hi Jeff,

The minutes won't have any consideration as to whether a board-approved budget takes effect in the new fiscal year. That said, activities of this year's annual meeting will be recorded into minutes, that in my experience, will be passed at next year's Annual Meeting.

My hunch is that your HOA board passed its 2020 budget at a previous meeting w/ that budget being presented to the HOA members ahead of the Annual Meeting. At the annual meeting, the budget is formally (publicly) presented for ratification by the members (which really isn't an up or down vote) and business rolls on.

The HOA board may have a communication problem or the Management company may be communicating poorly. The minutes of any meeting wouldn't necessarily carry policy explanations (and shouldn't).
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9041


12/28/2019 9:32 AM  
Posted By KellyM3 on 12/28/2019 9:19 AM
Posted By JeffT on 12/26/2019 4:25 PM
Our docs state that the budget must be adopted by the BOD in an open annual meeting of the members. My question is when does this get put into the minutes?

I think that it is a BOD action and it should be documented in the minutes of the next board meeting. The Condo law states that executive session must be log in the next BOD minutes. Thing like topics discussed, time and date of meeting, etc. The by-laws state actions taken by the board can be taken outside the BOD meeting must be logged in the minutes of the next BOD meeting.

Others are stating that it has to go into the the minutes a year from now at the next annual member meeting. Basically this means that the monthly assessment bill can show up with an increase with now explanation as to why. Although they do send out a proposed budget with info in it, but that is not adopted and final




Hi Jeff,

The minutes won't have any consideration as to whether a board-approved budget takes effect in the new fiscal year. That said, activities of this year's annual meeting will be recorded into minutes, that in my experience, will be passed at next year's Annual Meeting.

My hunch is that your HOA board passed its 2020 budget at a previous meeting w/ that budget being presented to the HOA members ahead of the Annual Meeting. At the annual meeting, the budget is formally (publicly) presented for ratification by the members (which really isn't an up or down vote) and business rolls on.

The HOA board may have a communication problem or the Management company may be communicating poorly. The minutes of any meeting wouldn't necessarily carry policy explanations (and shouldn't).




Few HOA's that I am aware of have a vote when the budget is presented.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1829


12/28/2019 9:52 AM  
I thought, in most cases, the Board develops a budget for the coming year, determines what level of assessment is required to support that budget - then votes to adopt/approve the budget, and the assessment. The property owners are then billed for the assessment. At some point there is an annual meeting and the membership can discuss, and/or there is some modification per the association docs.
JeffT2
(Iowa)

Posts:515


12/28/2019 10:17 AM  
Can you post the actual wording in your docs that says "the budget must be adopted by the BOD in an open annual meeting of the members"?
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2851


12/28/2019 10:23 AM  
I couldn't figure out how to cut and paste this with my tablet, but here are the links to my previous responses:

Robertsrules.forumflash.con/topic/20702-approval-of-minutes

And

Robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/17897



MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:351


12/28/2019 10:26 AM  
In some cases, associations have finance committees who prepare a budget for the Board to review and possibly adopt. Many cases, a management company will do the work and submit to a Board for review and possible adoption. In all my years of managing HOA's, I never had one board actually prepare their own budget. Someone always did it for them.

Boards will discuss the adoption of budget in different meetings, right or wrong. It could be in ES, it could be open sesion, it could be at the annual meeting. Your governing documents and possibly state codes may determine the setting and procedure.

The way I would proceed is present the budget at a Board meeting, open to the members and have the decision placed in the minutes. If there is a increase adopted, members should be notified by mail of a pending increase at a minimum of 30 days. Many have to update online banking instructions.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6805


12/28/2019 10:52 AM  
With JeffT, I'd like to see the actual wording, too.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:351


12/28/2019 11:03 AM  
Section 11-109.2. Annual proposed budget
(a) Preparation and submission. -- The council of unit owners shall cause to be prepared and submitted to the unit owners an annual proposed budget at least 30 days before its adoption.
(b) Items required to be included. -- The annual budget shall provide for at least the following items:
(1) Income;
(2) Administration;
(3) Maintenance;
(4) Utilities;
(5) General expenses;
(6) Reserves; and
(7) Capital items.
(c)
(d) Certain expenditures in excess of 15 percent of budgeted amount to be approved by amendment. -- Any expenditure made other than those made because of conditions which, if not corrected, could reasonably result in a threat to the health or safety of the unit owners or a significant risk of damage to the condominium, that would result in an increase in an amount of assessments for the current fiscal year of the condominium in excess of 15 percent of the budgeted amount previously adopted, shall be approved by an amendment to the budget adopted at a special meeting, upon not less than 10 days written notice to the council of unit owners.
(e) Authority of council to obligate itself for certain expenditures unimpaired. -- The adoption of a budget shall not impair the authority of the council of unit owners to obligate the council of unit owners for expenditures for any purpose consistent with any provision of this title.
(f) Applicability to condominiums occupied and used solely for nonresidential purposes. -- The provisions of this section do not apply to a condominium that is occupied and used solely for nonresidential purposes.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:351


12/28/2019 11:04 AM  
Section 11-109.2. Annual proposed budget
(a) Preparation and submission. -- The council of unit owners shall cause to be prepared and submitted to the unit owners an annual proposed budget at least 30 days before its adoption.
(b) Items required to be included. -- The annual budget shall provide for at least the following items:
(1) Income;
(2) Administration;
(3) Maintenance;
(4) Utilities;
(5) General expenses;
(6) Reserves; and
(7) Capital items.
(c) Adoption. -- The budget shall be adopted at an open meeting of the council of unit owners or any other body to which the council of unit owners delegates responsibilities for preparing and adopting the budget.
(d) Certain expenditures in excess of 15 percent of budgeted amount to be approved by amendment. -- Any expenditure made other than those made because of conditions which, if not corrected, could reasonably result in a threat to the health or safety of the unit owners or a significant risk of damage to the condominium, that would result in an increase in an amount of assessments for the current fiscal year of the condominium in excess of 15 percent of the budgeted amount previously adopted, shall be approved by an amendment to the budget adopted at a special meeting, upon not less than 10 days written notice to the council of unit owners.
(e) Authority of council to obligate itself for certain expenditures unimpaired. -- The adoption of a budget shall not impair the authority of the council of unit owners to obligate the council of unit owners for expenditures for any purpose consistent with any provision of this title.
(f) Applicability to condominiums occupied and used solely for nonresidential purposes. -- The provisions of this section do not apply to a condominium that is occupied and used solely for nonresidential purposes.
AugustinD


Posts:2335


12/28/2019 11:20 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 12/28/2019 10:23 AM
I couldn't figure out how to cut and paste this with my tablet, but here are the links to my previous responses:

Robertsrules.forumflash.con/topic/20702-approval-of-minutes

And

Robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/17897
Thank you, Shelia.

I could not get the site Robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/17897 to open.

These two sub-sites say otherwise:

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/34679-annual-meeting-minutes-and-the-by-laws/

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/16536-annual-meeting-minutes-approval/

I do not think the folks posting at robertsrules.forumflash.com are any more or less experienced than folks here.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9041


12/28/2019 11:52 AM  
If we are seeking an annual dues increase, we must submit the budget (US Mail) to owners on or before 12/01 to become effective 01/01. The members can call a Special Meeting prior to 01/01 and vote the budget down but the vote must be 51% or more of ALL OWNERS AGREEING. I repeat, 51% or more of ALL OWNERS AGREEING. We could not get 51% of all owners to agree to anything other than a dues decrease......LOL

If no dues increase, the BOD will work up a new budget for the year and use it effective 01/01. It will basically be the same as the prior year. We will present the Budget to members at the Annual Meeting in April and say it is the same o, same o. The discussion usually ends there. They do not get to vote on it.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6805


12/28/2019 5:58 PM  
What state is your citation from, Mark? MD? It seems to say the "council" adopts the budget, not the unit owners. (unless the council delegates the budget to a different body.) It also seems to say the adoption take place at a council meeting not a unit owners meeting.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:351


12/28/2019 6:39 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/28/2019 5:58 PM
What state is your citation from, Mark? MD? It seems to say the "council" adopts the budget, not the unit owners. (unless the council delegates the budget to a different body.) It also seems to say the adoption take place at a council meeting not a unit owners meeting.



South Dakota.

Can't help you read state statues.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6805


12/28/2019 9:29 PM  
Soooooo..... why SD, Mark, when the OP is in MD? Just curious.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:351


12/29/2019 12:35 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/28/2019 9:29 PM
Soooooo..... why SD, Mark, when the OP is in MD? Just curious.



We all know, unless it's California, you wouldn't do any research. If you had, you would know it is actually from Maryland.

Why would anyone use South Dakota, when Maryland was just two clicks away? It's also not very difficult to locate someone's governing documents from a state to verify. Even California is just as easy, 211 unit twin tower condo in california
AugustinD


Posts:2335


12/29/2019 6:52 AM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 12/29/2019 12:35 AM
Why would anyone use South Dakota, when Maryland was just two clicks away?


Your citation and my citation are both from the Maryland Condominium Act. From http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/postid/73246/Default.aspx, JeffT's association is not a condominium.


MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:351


12/29/2019 11:25 AM  
Forgive if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a townhome be considered a condo?
AugustinD


Posts:2335


12/29/2019 12:20 PM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 12/29/2019 11:25 AM
Forgive if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a townhome be considered a condo?
Read the thread. JeffT was asked if it was a condo. He responded it was a HOA and has been so for many years.

Why did you post the alleged number of units of a certain alleged California condominium. Don't you know that posting identifying information is against hoatalk[dot]com rules? Stalking someone is also against hoatalk[dot]com rules.

Your posts read like RichardP13's, a HOA/condo manager from California.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:351


12/29/2019 12:30 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 12/29/2019 12:20 PM
Posted By MarkW18 on 12/29/2019 11:25 AM
Forgive if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a townhome be considered a condo?
Read the thread. JeffT was asked if it was a condo. He responded it was a HOA and has been so for many years.

Why did you post the alleged number of units of a certain alleged California condominium. Don't you know that posting identifying information is against hoatalk[dot]com rules? Stalking someone is also against hoatalk[dot]com rules.

Your posts read like RichardP13's, a HOA/condo manager from California.



This is what Jeff posted, HOA for 25 years. 350 townhomes. About 1/3 are investment owners
AugustinD


Posts:2335


12/29/2019 12:51 PM  
Posted By DanaB1 on 05/05/2009 6:07 PM
Are you condos or single family homes?
Posted By JeffT on 05/06/2009 7:56 AM
HOA for 25 years. 350 townhomes. About 1/3 are investment owners
Townhomes can be either a condominium or a HOA.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:351


12/29/2019 1:21 PM  
Let me know when you figure whether it's a condo or an HOA, as that is important?

BTW, I love the analogy of "Perhaps: Because only the BOD adopts the budget, then the governing documents has a kind of BOD-meeting-within-a-Members-meeting going on."

Could you give us all an example of that meeting within a meeting scenario?
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9041


12/29/2019 3:33 PM  
In SC there is one set of laws, The SC Horizontal Property Act, that deals with multi story (tww or ome) associations, often called condos. The Act is very encompassing and has been in effect for many years.

There is another set of recent laws (I forget the name of the Act), which is very weak and deals with all other type owners associations. Such as townhomes, standalone homes, duplexes, triplexes, etc. This act primarily/simply covers what information a buyer must be given before the sale. It does not deal with how to run the association.

Many people call any type owners under association as being in a condo. Not uncommon for a state to have several type docs/laws covering associations so when posting/reading, be aware of this.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:9041


12/29/2019 4:31 PM  
Augustin and markw18. I am to lazy to read past posts so a few questions to you both:

1. What do you do for a living?

2. What have you done for a living?

3. What is your association with an owners association past and present?

4. Do either of you have a legal degree and/or licensed to practice law?

5. Have either of you served on an owners association BOD?

AugustinD


Posts:2335


12/29/2019 5:22 PM  
JohnC46, I am not now nor have I ever been an attorney. I have served on two HOA/condo boards for a few years total. Why is it you want answers to the other questions? To judge the merit of my responses? They stand on their own. I try to admit when I am mistaken or unsure.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:351


12/29/2019 10:06 PM  
JohnC46,

1. Retired for 3 1/2 years. Now travel the country in a 45 ft motor coach.
2. A lot
3. Lived in them, managed a number of them, re-wrote a number of governing docs, and have been on boards.
4. Have a J.D., held a PCAM, and held a real estate brokers license for 20 years.
5. Yep
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2851


12/30/2019 6:39 AM  
Interesting that the OP hasn't returned to answer some of the questions. A cynic might think he's not happy with what's been said so far, but I hope this conversation has given something to think about. It does make me happy that (1) our meetings are open so homeowners can always attend to hear for themselves what's happening and why, and (2) our documents require a 30 day advanced notice so everybody can adjust their budget, automatic payments or whatever they need to do.

I still say it's easier for the board to call a special meeting to discuss the budget and vote on it, and then that action can be noted at the next board meeting. The homeowners should be invited and then it's up to them to read the information the board sends in advance so they can be prepared to ask informed questions.

As for the quote on Maryland HOA law, that's helpful, but I hope people also take note of the effective date. In some cases, some parts may only apply to HOAs established in or after a certain date. There may also be language that applies unless the community's documents have easier or tougher requirements. Stuff like this can turn these questions on their heads.
JeffT
(Maryland)

Posts:76


12/30/2019 10:31 AM  
Thanks all for the responses. I did some googling about the Robert's Rule forum posts and found a lawyer that has posted his interpretation of the Robert's Rule approving minutes and citing the page numbers from the passages. I would think that the lawyer comments clarify any of the comments on the Robert's Rules forum

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Annual-meeting-minutes.

The BOD claim that they did adopt the budget at the Annual Meeting, which I did not see. I just wanted it documented somewhere and sometime before the next annual meeting.
JeffT
(Maryland)

Posts:76


12/30/2019 10:39 AM  
MArk18w - This quote that you posted was from a long long time ago when I was on the BOD of that HOA and not a condo. I moved 7 years ago and now on a BOD of a condo townhome community of I think 153 condo townhomes
AugustinD


Posts:2335


12/30/2019 10:50 AM  
Posted By JeffT on 12/30/2019 10:39 AM
MArk18w - This quote that you posted was from a long long time ago when I was on the BOD of that HOA and not a condo. I moved 7 years ago and now on a BOD of a condo townhome community of I think 153 condo townhomes
That's my bad in quoting a very old post by JeffT, not MarkW18's. If JeffT is still in Maryland, then the aforementioned statute applies. The statute says the budget is supposed to be adopted by the board at a Board meeting or by any other body the Board designates.
JeffT
(Maryland)

Posts:76


12/30/2019 11:00 AM  
For those that wanted to see the wording in the declaration:

The Board shall determine the amount of the assessment annually by preparation and adoption of an annual proposed budget as provided in Section 11-109.2 of the Act. Budget will shall be amended on in occordance with the section of the Act aforsaid

The Act is the Maryland Condo Act
JeffT2
(Iowa)

Posts:515


12/30/2019 6:15 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 12/30/2019 10:50 AM
The statute says the budget is supposed to be adopted by the board at a Board meeting or by any other body the Board designates.

No, the statute says the council, not the board, but see my next post for clarification.
JeffT2
(Iowa)

Posts:515


12/30/2019 6:16 PM  
The statute says: "The budget shall be adopted at an open meeting of the council of unit owners or any other body to which the council of unit owners delegates responsibilities for preparing and adopting the budget."

The council of unit owners is basically the owners association (with some legal differences between the council and the association that don't matter here). The council is not the board.

Your declaration has delegated the responsibilities for the budget to the board of directors. The budget is adopted by the board and this should be noted in the minutes of the board meeting, not the council or the association minutes.

So your council of unit owners does not approve the budget, since the responsibility has been delegated to the board. The budget is not done at the annual meeting of the owners, and does not belong in the minutes of the annual meeting.

There is no such thing as a board meeting in the annual meeting. The board meets on its own. The annual meeting is a meeting of the owners, not a meeting of the board.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:351


12/30/2019 7:22 PM  
All that and all that needed to be said is this:

The budget is adopted at the Annual Meeting. It could have been approved at a prior Board meeting, but adopted in front of the owners and put into the minutes of the annual meeting.
AugustinD


Posts:2335


12/31/2019 9:21 AM  
Posted By JeffT2 on 12/30/2019 6:16 PM
The council of unit owners is basically the owners association (with some legal differences between the council and the association that don't matter here). The council is not the board.
JeffT2, I see this now in the statute. Thanks for setting the record straight.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6805


01/01/2020 12:45 PM  
I appreciate your clarification too, Jeff.
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Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Budget and assessment increase documented in minutes?



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