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Subject: HOA is forcing all homeowners to have their roofs replaced
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JosephM21
(Florida)

Posts:2


11/29/2019 2:34 PM  
I have lived in this house for eleven years a renter.The owner is selling and I am the buyer.The house was just inspected by the bank and then by the VA.Both inspectors said the roof was in good shape.Now since the HOA is aware of sixteen residents have leaks,The HOA wants all roofs replaced.there are 101
houses with two units each.the homeowners will be responsible for close to $10,000.00.The HOA does not work for the community,they do what they want.HOW can this be legal?

CarolF
(Florida)

Posts:424


11/29/2019 3:57 PM  
Were all the units built at the same time? How many years ago? Are these considered
individual homes, not condos?
JosephM21
(Florida)

Posts:2


11/29/2019 4:41 PM  
Thank You.
These are individual units and were built in 2004.There are many homeowners that do not want this but the board members say they made the decision and it's going to happen.This will cost 10,000.00 per unit and we have no say.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1469


11/29/2019 5:11 PM  
15 years in Florida could very well be time to replace roofing - the heat and moisture are tough.

What do the other members of the HOA say?

It does sound like the Board has not been collecting sufficient Reserve funds to replace the roofs ... THAT is a big deal that needs to be corrected so this special assessment scenario doesn’t happen, again.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6711


11/29/2019 5:18 PM  
It doesn't sound as if you've actually bought your home yet, right? Perhaps you'll find you don't want to buy it.

You need to learn what your governing documents say re: the responsibility to replace roofs. This will be in your CC&Rs (aka, deed restriction, covenant, declaration). Are the roofs the Association's responsibility? Or the Homeowner's? Are the roofs common area or exclusive use common area? Your escrow officer should be able to tell you the answer to that based on your CC&Rs.

You wrote they are Individual units, but it also sounds as if two share one roof. Please clarify.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8753


11/29/2019 5:24 PM  
It sounds like your HOA has to do a special assessment to afford the roof replacement. Doesn't sound like they are fully funding a reserve account. Plus they would need to vote in the special assessment to have the 10K raised. Did they take a vote of the members to approve?

When you live in a HOA it is NOT about "You". It is about YOU and YOUR neighbors. So if you have 16 units with bad roofs, and the HOA is responsible for replacing roofs, you ALL pay for those 16 roofs whether you live under one of them or not.

Former HOA President
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:833


11/29/2019 5:36 PM  
It sounds like you are in a side by side duplex community.. If you are still in the beginning stages of the buying process I would rescind the offer. Sounds like the HOA is poorly managed and this this is a "condo" community with poorly funded reserves.
AugustinD


Posts:2045


11/29/2019 8:13 PM  
Posted By JosephM21 on 11/29/2019 2:34 PM
There are 101 houses with two units each. The homeowners will be responsible for close to $10,000.00.The HOA does not work for the community,they do what they want.HOW can this be legal?


-- Ask the HOA manager for a copy of the CC&Rs. The CC&Rs will explain why, once you buy a home in this HOA, the board can legally replace all roofs and bill the members.

-- Once you are a member, you can vote out the current board and vote in a new one. It's often not easy to do.

-- The HOA should inform your lender of the special assessment. Then the chances are good that the lender will disqualify you for the home loan.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:254


11/29/2019 8:26 PM  
I am dealing with a similar situation. Over the past two years an association has spending $120K in roof reaping due to rain leakages. The roofs are tile and the underlayment takes a beating from the sun. To re-do the whole complex would cost $500K and almost $6K per owner for a special assessment. Their board is controlled by one individual who advocates putting band aids over the problem.

I figured they could do a SBA loan with a monthly repayment of $2500 over 30 years. Each owner's monthly contribution would be $25.00 and if the home ever transfer, the loan would also. You only pay for the period of time you are in use of it.
SamE2
(New Jersey)

Posts:195


11/29/2019 9:44 PM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 11/29/2019 8:26 PM
I am dealing with a similar situation. Over the past two years an association has spending $120K in roof reaping due to rain leakages. The roofs are tile and the underlayment takes a beating from the sun. To re-do the whole complex would cost $500K and almost $6K per owner for a special assessment. Their board is controlled by one individual who advocates putting band aids over the problem.

I figured they could do a SBA loan with a monthly repayment of $2500 over 30 years. Each owner's monthly contribution would be $25.00 and if the home ever transfer, the loan would also. You only pay for the period of time you are in use of it.





Seems to me you are paying for the period of time the person before you used it. The whole concept of fully funding a reserve account is paying for what you use if don't have a fully funded reserve account and do what you suggest the new owner would be paying for what someone else used.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:254


11/29/2019 9:53 PM  
I manage the property. I fully understand the concepts of reserves. These were decisions of a bad board that didn't want to rock the boat in fear of not getting re-elected.
CarolF
(Florida)

Posts:424


11/30/2019 3:05 AM  
Toxic mold can develop from roof leaks and this can cause serious health problems.
If your association is responsible for roofing your association could be at risk for potential law suits for negligence. Also, check with your insurance company to see at what roof age they will no longer provide homeowners insurance. I'm still not clear on whether these are condos or individual homes.
Does the association own the property around your home or do you own the lot?
SamE2
(New Jersey)

Posts:195


11/30/2019 8:12 AM  
To answer your question it can be legal because it is in the HOA documents and it is what you agreed to when you bought. If the roof is the responsibility of the HOA they should have been collecting money so they could replace the roof when it is needed. If they didn't collect the money in reserves you have to pay now. When maintaining a large HOA it is probably more cost effective to replace all the roofs at once when they start failing instead of waiting until they all fail. You really are not paying to get your roof replaced your are paying a percentage for replacing each of the 101 roofs even though the math may work out to be the same as paying to get your roof replaced.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8867


11/30/2019 11:25 AM  
Joseph

It is entirely possible the BOD could order all roofs replaced and maybe even by whom. Read your docs.

If you disagree with the BOD consider recalling/replacing them and reverse the decision.

Unless your docs call for the HOA to pay for roof replacement (as do ours) the reserves have nothing to do with this.

30 year financing for $10K is foolish. It should be paid off in 5 years or less. The HOA could make some arrangements for a loan and payments be made as part of one's dues. This would assure the job is done when needed and properly. With just ordering each owner to do so, some will tell them to go to hell.
SamE2
(New Jersey)

Posts:195


11/30/2019 12:04 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/30/2019 11:25 AM
Joseph


Unless your docs call for the HOA to pay for roof replacement (as do ours) the reserves have nothing to do with this.







John if the HOA isn't responsible for replacing the roof would they be able to make someone replace the roof? I know they could make them maintain it and repair it but I did not know they could force a replacement unless the problem with the roof is so bad that a replacement is the only way to maintain it. In this case it seems the roof is being replaced as a preemptive measure and I wouldn't think a HOA could force that unless it was their responsibility to do have the work done and pay for it.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8867


11/30/2019 1:04 PM  
Sam

You are right. If the roofs were deteriorating and looking shabby, most docs would allow the HOA to order the roof be replaced. It will all be in the docs.

We are sometimes questioned on our decisions especially concerning landscaping. As we strive to maintain a harmonious look, we say no planting can be replaced unless replaced with an identical species. Nowhere in our docs is that said (ala identical species) but there is part of our docs that empowers` the BOD to maintain a common look. I say under that "common look" we could order a roof(s) replaced though not specifically applicable to us as the HOA replaces our roofs. Of course we could also be voted out.........LOL

I believe the OP could get a group to challenge the BOD's decision based on a few roofs leaking is not grounds for all roofs to be replaced. What should be done is for a reputable roof inspector to inspect and give their opinion. That is what I would be requesting.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3362


11/30/2019 3:03 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 11/29/2019 5:11 PM
15 years in Florida could very well be time to replace roofing - the heat and moisture are tough.

Very true. My HOA replaced all the roofs in 2007 and used a 20 year "useful life" estimate in its reserve calculations for 10 years. After 10 years, the same roofer told the HOA that his 2007 esitmate of 20 years was a tad optimistic, and that we'd be lucky to get 15 years out of them. Depending on trees overhanging the roof, proper maintenance, quality of original workmanship and materials, etc., I think the number of asphalt shingle roofs in the state of Florida that actually last a full 20 years is quite small. I've been looking for some reliable statistics on that but have yet to find any.
MarkM19
(Texas)

Posts:459


11/30/2019 3:28 PM  
I am still confused why Joseph has not mentioned anything about the reserves the HOA has been collecting for future Roof replacements. They have to have reserves for all of the common area including the Roofs. A good portion of the reserves should be used for this first and if a special assessment needs to be done it should be for the additional funds needed.

My take of his post is the reserves may have been neglected and the owner who decided to sell must have known of this pending issue. I would check and see if anyone in the HOA has been posting this on Social media or in recent minutes. I am not a Realtor or a Lawyer but have bought and sold several properties over the years. The seller is responsible to fill out Disclosure forms that declares any known issues with the property he wants to transfer.

I would try my best to cancel the sale or at a minimum have the sales priced reduced by the estimated cost of the Roof. If they try to tell you otherwise you may need legal advice. No matter what else happens the HOA appears to be run by a bad bunch of Board members.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3362


11/30/2019 6:21 PM  
I don't think the OP's HOA is responsible for the costs of roof repair at all, so it's not a matter of reserves. The HOA's governing documents probably put the responsibility for roof replacement on the owners and give the association the power and authority to compel compliance.

"The homeowners will be responsible for $10,000 each," is not the same as saying "there will be a $10,000 special assessment."
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1469


11/30/2019 6:34 PM  
This will be a mystery until the OP tells us.
EdC5
(Florida)

Posts:114


12/02/2019 7:15 AM  
In my experience managing communities in Florida, the "lifespan" of shingles here is VASTLY overestimated. If the manufacturer calls the shingles "20-year" then plan on 10-12 years (15 years if you're really lucky), as the sun and heat degrade the shingles at an alarming rate. The only roofing I've seen here that lasts are metal roofs (which still need to bear replaced about every 25 years, depending on the grade of the metal used), and tile roofs (which, again, do need replacing (typically at the 20 year mark, due to the heat). One of the biggest mistake the associations I've managed make (I tend to manage only 55+ communities) is that instead of getting proper reserve studies, the board has owners who "used to be in construction" make estimates and base the reserves on that (if they fund reserves at all, which I've found most don't -- "I'm not going to live that long, why should I pay into something that won't affect me?").

Edward J Cooke, CMCA, LCAM
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3362


12/02/2019 8:55 PM  
Posted By EdC5 on 12/02/2019 7:15 AM
In my experience managing communities in Florida, the "lifespan" of shingles here is VASTLY overestimated. ... One of the biggest mistake the associations I've managed make (I tend to manage only 55+ communities) is that instead of getting proper reserve studies, the board has owners who "used to be in construction" make estimates and base the reserves on that (if they fund reserves at all, which I've found most don't -- "I'm not going to live that long, why should I pay into something that won't affect me?").

That describes my HOA to a T. We're not technically a 55+ community, but in a de facto sense, we are. As we approach 15 years on the roofs (in 2022) short several hundred thousand dollars in the roof reserves, the board's current plan is to rely on the recommendation of a local roofer as to when a roof needs to be replaced. The original reserves plan called for a 20 year lifetime when they would all be done at once (we have 75 buildings, some attached duplexes and some single-family unattached) and the gripes are already starting about the tentative re-roofing schedule. Based on recommendations from a single roofer, the board thinks it will be able to juggle re-roofing on an as-needed basis. It will be touch-and-go because there are no roofs currently leaking. The past 3 boards have steadfastly refused to engage the services of an expert or an independent professional with no "skin" in the game.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8867


12/03/2019 2:58 AM  
Geno

Like you we are 40 duplex, single story patio homes and 32 single family (some two story) homes so 112 owners. Our HOA is responsible for roof replacement and we have been building a Roofing Replacement Reserve Fund. We have had bids in the $500K range for the total project with the suggestion we replace oldest first and over the same period of time it to build out our HOA which was 7 years. We will be commencing in 2027 when we are 20 years old and completion set for 2047.
EdC5
(Florida)

Posts:114


12/03/2019 7:17 AM  
Posted By GenoS on 12/02/2019 8:55 PM
Posted By EdC5 on 12/02/2019 7:15 AM
In my experience managing communities in Florida, the "lifespan" of shingles here is VASTLY overestimated. ... One of the biggest mistake the associations I've managed make (I tend to manage only 55+ communities) is that instead of getting proper reserve studies, the board has owners who "used to be in construction" make estimates and base the reserves on that (if they fund reserves at all, which I've found most don't -- "I'm not going to live that long, why should I pay into something that won't affect me?").

That describes my HOA to a T. We're not technically a 55+ community, but in a de facto sense, we are. As we approach 15 years on the roofs (in 2022) short several hundred thousand dollars in the roof reserves, the board's current plan is to rely on the recommendation of a local roofer as to when a roof needs to be replaced. The original reserves plan called for a 20 year lifetime when they would all be done at once (we have 75 buildings, some attached duplexes and some single-family unattached) and the gripes are already starting about the tentative re-roofing schedule. Based on recommendations from a single roofer, the board thinks it will be able to juggle re-roofing on an as-needed basis. It will be touch-and-go because there are no roofs currently leaking. The past 3 boards have steadfastly refused to engage the services of an expert or an independent professional with no "skin" in the game.




Your board had better do their due diligence and get opinions from more than that one contractor. Florida statute requires competitive bidding when a project exceeds 10% of the annual budget.

720.3055 Contracts for products and services; in writing; bids; exceptions.—
(1) All contracts as further described in this section or any contract that is not to be fully performed within 1 year after the making thereof for the purchase, lease, or renting of materials or equipment to be used by the association in accomplishing its purposes under this chapter or the governing documents, and all contracts for the provision of services, shall be in writing. If a contract for the purchase, lease, or renting of materials or equipment, or for the provision of services, requires payment by the association that exceeds 10 percent of the total annual budget of the association, including reserves, the association must obtain competitive bids for the materials, equipment, or services. Nothing contained in this section shall be construed to require the association to accept the lowest bid.

Edward J Cooke, CMCA, LCAM
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3362


12/03/2019 1:47 PM  
Posted By EdC5 on 12/03/2019 7:17 AM
Your board had better do their due diligence and get opinions from more than that one contractor. Florida statute requires competitive bidding when a project exceeds 10% of the annual budget.

That has never bothered the boards here before. They hired a handyman a few years ago as an independent contractor and paid him what amounted to about 15% of the annual budget. When I bought up the need to get bids for those services, I was ignored and the meeting moved along.

We have had informal estimates from a few roofers who were brought in for spot repairs. Their quick off-the-cuff estimates were within a couple of thousand dollars of each other. We'd rather have too much in the roof reserves than too little because a 1% swing on a $1.2 million job is still $10,000. And just as you say, there are about a dozen homeowners here in their 80s and they make no secret of the fact that they don't see the need for a lot of reserves since they won't be here in another 10, 15 or 20 years.
EdC5
(Florida)

Posts:114


12/04/2019 7:17 AM  
Posted By GenoS on 12/03/2019 1:47 PM
Posted By EdC5 on 12/03/2019 7:17 AM
Your board had better do their due diligence and get opinions from more than that one contractor. Florida statute requires competitive bidding when a project exceeds 10% of the annual budget.

That has never bothered the boards here before. They hired a handyman a few years ago as an independent contractor and paid him what amounted to about 15% of the annual budget. When I bought up the need to get bids for those services, I was ignored and the meeting moved along.

We have had informal estimates from a few roofers who were brought in for spot repairs. Their quick off-the-cuff estimates were within a couple of thousand dollars of each other. We'd rather have too much in the roof reserves than too little because a 1% swing on a $1.2 million job is still $10,000. And just as you say, there are about a dozen homeowners here in their 80s and they make no secret of the fact that they don't see the need for a lot of reserves since they won't be here in another 10, 15 or 20 years.




I hate to say it, but your example is exactly why I'm against self-managed associations. I'm not saying that because I do it for a living (and personally I avoid working for a management co. whenever possible); I say it because self-managed tend to do exactly what you're describing.

Edward J Cooke, CMCA, LCAM
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3362


12/04/2019 1:15 PM  
Posted By EdC5 on 12/04/2019 7:17 AM
I hate to say it, but your example is exactly why I'm against self-managed associations. I'm not saying that because I do it for a living (and personally I avoid working for a management co. whenever possible); I say it because self-managed tend to do exactly what you're describing.

I hear that, and what I've described is only scratching the surface.

So are there CAMS in Florida that operate solo and outside of larger management companies? Where would one look for them? Around here the larger MCs suck all the oxygen out of the room with their advertising and if there are independent CAMs in the county they're pretty invisible.
EdC5
(Florida)

Posts:114


12/05/2019 5:32 AM  
Posted By GenoS on 12/04/2019 1:15 PM
Posted By EdC5 on 12/04/2019 7:17 AM
I hate to say it, but your example is exactly why I'm against self-managed associations. I'm not saying that because I do it for a living (and personally I avoid working for a management co. whenever possible); I say it because self-managed tend to do exactly what you're describing.

I hear that, and what I've described is only scratching the surface.

So are there CAMS in Florida that operate solo and outside of larger management companies? Where would one look for them? Around here the larger MCs suck all the oxygen out of the room with their advertising and if there are independent CAMs in the county they're pretty invisible.




There are a very few of us who don't work for management companies. The reason for that is that there are few associations who hire its own employees; it's easier to contract with a management company (the mg't co. has all the infrastructure in place: software, etc.). When I have worked directly as an employee of an association I have found the position on sites like Indeed or on sites like this one.

To carry this out a bit further: the reason I stay away from management co.'s is the politics (and you'll quickly be "thrown under the bus" if the mg't co. thinks it might lose the contract (has happened to me)). One thing I've found about working as the CAM directly for the association is that it's like working for any other company: no having to go to board for every decision -- the board sets policy. Think about it like this: does the manager of an Apple store get permission from Apple's board of directors to enter into a vendor contract or sign a store lease?

Another thing I never do is sit with the board at meetings (and I certainly do NOT run the meetings (I have worked for management companies that expected both)). My general procedure is to meet with the president and secretary (along with my secretary, and, sometimes other board members will be there) and set the agenda, then I print the month's income/expense statement and balance sheet and give them to the treasurer, then I give my manager's report to my secretary, then my secretary prepares the meeting packet and gets it to all the board members. At the meeting the president runs the meeting, the other officers give their reports, and I answer questions the board may have about anything that happened in the past month and/or I'll announce and discuss information that affects the community (such as at one community the county was changing all the house numbers and some of the street names). You'll notice that I left out the delinquency report from the reports given to the treasurer/board; that's because handling delinquencies were my job, and the board just expected to do my job.

If you want to talk me let me know and I'll give you my private contact info.

Edward J Cooke, CMCA, LCAM
JeffT2
(Iowa)

Posts:501


12/05/2019 5:38 PM  
Many shingles come with a 20- or 30-year warranty, with some exclusions. Warranties are usually prorated, meaning the manufacturer will give a partial credit for new shingles (but usually not labor). So for a 30-year warranty, the manufacturer will provide new shingles at half cost (for 15 out of 30 years), which can be substantial. You might offer to the board to research the warranty with the builder who installed the roofs or whoever you can find. Or just start making the calls to see what you can find. The manufacturer may deny the warranty if the shingles do not need to be replaced, or for other reasons, but it won't cost anything to try and the manufacturer may provide valuable information.
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