Get 2 months of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!
Friday, December 06, 2019
Get 2 months of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!
Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.
Subject: President changed the votes using proxy
Prev Next
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Author Messages
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/12/2019 5:58 AM  
Hi All,

I need advice on the topic below:

Our community is 8 years old.
There are 3 positions in our HOA, each valid for 3 years once elected.
Current president is holding the position since the begining.
3rd seat was empty for past few years and nobody was interested in joining the board.
I became resident last year and joined the board few months ago(without election) and filled the 3rd seat.

Last Tuesday, election were held for 2 seats.
Current president and my name was on the ballot when election/annual meeting was announced month ago.

30 residents sent their proxy and but they also filled their ballot and checked who they wanted to vote.
In some cases, they striked President's name and my name was selected.
On the proxy letter, they did not put any name so the proxy power went to president by default.


On the election day, in annual meeting, I was surprise to see 3rd candidate(President's neighbour) name on ballot.
Annual meeting attended by 17 families and 3 board members. (and 30 proxies.)
Each household could choose maximum 2 out of 3 candidates.

In the meeting winners were anncouced and vote count was not given.
President and President's neighbour were the winners.

Later when peoples found out the result, 8 of them reached out to me saying they all sent their proxy with my name on the ballot.
So I asked for more information from HOA management found the following:

President got 50 Votes,
I got 4
3rd Candidate got 49.

I feel election was not fair beacuse:

1. The vote count is not mathematically possible.
2. President changed original votes casted on ballot (sent with proxy) and put her and her neighbour's name using proxy power.
3. Nobody knew there was 3rd Candidate till we enter the meeting hall.

Please let me know if I can challenge this election?


GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1469


11/12/2019 6:54 AM  
I think you will need to excerpt the applicable portions of your governing docs for anyone to be able to sort this out.

You can go on record regarding the outcome, but you will need to fully understand both your governing documents, the election process, any applicable state law, etc.

And, the positions of which you speak, are likely “directors.” Or, are they “officers.” You will need to understand all this completely prior to taking on the board.
SamE2
(New Jersey)

Posts:195


11/12/2019 8:00 AM  
I would start with your documents. Our documents outline how votes are to be conducted. Who counted your votes? Obviously something is not right if 9 people voted for you (assuming you voted for yourself) and you only got 4 votes.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/12/2019 8:11 AM  
President scrached my name from the ballot and put hers and the other candidate.
Since she had the proxy, legally she could do that. Buy resident were not informed that she changed their vote to herself.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/12/2019 8:13 AM  
HOA person collected and counted the votes.
BTW, I also voted for President (and myself)
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3910


11/12/2019 10:35 AM  
Posted By MadanA on 11/12/2019 8:11 AM
President scrached my name from the ballot and put hers and the other candidate.
Since she had the proxy, legally she could do that. Buy resident were not informed that she changed their vote to herself.


There are 2 kinds of proxies.
1. A directed proxy. In this type of proxy, I "direct" my proxy to vote a certain way.
2. A non-directed proxy. In this type of proxy, I authorize my proxy to vote however he or she wants.

If the proxy that was given had your name on it, that would indicate that it was a directed proxy.
If the name of the candidate was blank, that would indicate that it was a non-directed proxy.

You can't just cross out a name and turn a directed proxy into a non-directed proxy.

If you decide to challenge the election, you should speak with a lawyer who can give you some guidance.

First thing you should realize is that the ballots themselves are Association documents. There are likely to be rules about how long they must be retained. They should be available for inspection. But if those documents have been destroyed, that could be a problem. A lawyer will know how to handle this.

Another option is to demand that the election be held again. At minimum, you should get enough signatures on a petition to hold a special meeting. I won't go into a lot of detail on that.

But -- the key messages I would like across are:

- Not all proxies are the same.

- Any altered proxy is suspect.

Those are messages you need to understand and get across to your neighbors, either directly yourself of through a lawyer.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/12/2019 12:02 PM  
I asked for clarification from management company and got new vote count and explanation below.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ballots are only counted at the meeting since the documents for this community allow for
nominations on the floor – at the meeting. If people voted prior to the meeting, they would
not have all of the information with regards to who was running for the Board.

If a home owner cannot attend the meeting, they complete the proxy and that proxy designates
who can vote for them at that meeting. Any proxy that left the designation blank, is
automatically assigned to the Board president; which it states in the language of the proxy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does "directed proxy" applicable based on above?
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3910


11/12/2019 1:26 PM  
Posted By MadanA on 11/12/2019 12:02 PM
I asked for clarification from management company and got new vote count and explanation below.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ballots are only counted at the meeting since the documents for this community allow for
nominations on the floor – at the meeting. If people voted prior to the meeting, they would
not have all of the information with regards to who was running for the Board.

If a home owner cannot attend the meeting, they complete the proxy and that proxy designates
who can vote for them at that meeting. Any proxy that left the designation blank, is
automatically assigned to the Board president; which it states in the language of the proxy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does "directed proxy" applicable based on above?



Unfortunately, the word "proxy" is used to describe both the document and the individual selected to act on behalf of the voter. Hope that doesn't make my description below confusing.

It's not uncommon for a proxy document to state that a particular Board member will vote on my behalf as my proxy if I didn't identify a specific person. And if I didn't enter the names of who I intended to vote for, I can see where that could be taken as a non-directed proxy.

But if I did enter the names of who I wanted my proxy to vote for on my behalf, I cannot see where anyone could assume it was anything other than a directed proxy.

IMO, the fact that you accept nominations from the floor should have no effect on a directed proxy. I entered the name of the candidates I wanted. That makes it a directed proxy if all the other conditions are met.

If an HOA BOD member can scratch out one name and put in another, then please tell me where that's written in your proxy document? Your PM can't say - Oh, this is the way we do it. The document must describe any rights granted (like the right of the Pres to be the default proxy) or the modification can't be allowed. Period.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/12/2019 1:40 PM  
Thank you.

I sent request to the HOA management company to see all ballots(valid and invalid)as wells as proxy document. I assume that is valid request.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8867


11/13/2019 1:59 AM  
Posted By MadanA on 11/12/2019 12:02 PM
I asked for clarification from management company and got new vote count and explanation below.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ballots are only counted at the meeting since the documents for this community allow for
nominations on the floor – at the meeting. If people voted prior to the meeting, they would
not have all of the information with regards to who was running for the Board.

If a home owner cannot attend the meeting, they complete the proxy and that proxy designates
who can vote for them at that meeting. Any proxy that left the designation blank, is
automatically assigned to the Board president; which it states in the language of the proxy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does "directed proxy" applicable based on above?




The above reply from the MC is correct. What many do not understand is the 2nd part where the Proxy is assigned to the BOD President. This is typical for a Proxy sent by the BOD as they want it in their favor.

I love Proxies, but they are often misunderstood versus used improperly.
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:121


11/13/2019 8:06 AM  
Is it possible for the OP can post the proxy sections of the CC&R's and Bylaws?

I have seen undesignated proxies go toward a quorum count but never to the board president, OP please post the documents sections.

Overall, I think the OP got screwed out of at least some of the votes.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/13/2019 8:32 AM  
2019 ANNUAL MEETING
PROXY
PLEASE PRINT
I/we ____________________________________________________, being owners of the
property located at ________________________________________________, ,
and member(s) of XYZ Community Association, Inc. do hereby authorize and appoint the
President of the Board of Directors or____________________________(insert name of
homeowner who will vote on your behalf) who is a member of XYZ Community Association Inc,
to be my/our proxy, with full power of substitution to act and vote for and on behalf of
me/us at the XYZ Community Association Inc. Annual Meeting to be held .
This proxy shall remain in full force and effect until such time as it shall be revoked
by me/us in writing, until I/We transfer title to my/our property in, or by my/our attendance
at the meeting.

Owner Signature: ___________________________________________ Date: __________

Owner signature: ___________________________________________ Date: __________

If unable to attend this meeting, please complete and return this proxy to
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/13/2019 8:35 AM  
From BYLAWS

Proxies.

All Members of the Association may vote and transact business at any meeting of the Association by
proxy which is authorized in writing and meets the applicable requirements of the Governing
Documents and Legal Requirements. A proxy is void if it is not dated. A proxy terminates
eleven (11) months after its date, unless it specifics a shorter term. A Member may not revoke a
proxy given pursuant to this Section except by actual notice of revocation to the Person presiding
over a meeting of the Association. Proxies may not be used in connection with meetings of the Board,
Architectural Review Committee Or any other Board committee.
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:377


11/13/2019 8:42 AM  
Isn't it basic common law fraud to modify a ballot?
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/13/2019 8:45 AM  
My understanding WAS, if you have proxy power, then you can change the vote
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/13/2019 8:46 AM  
proxy form says
"with full power of substitution to act and vote for and on behalf of"
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:377


11/13/2019 9:14 AM  
So the residents sent (1) the proxy below and (2) a ballot with your name on it?

And your name was scratched off the ballot when the vote took place?

I don't think that "full power of substitution" means that the person who receives the proxy can go against instructions from the person who gave the proxy.

(1) Proxy

2019 ANNUAL MEETING
PROXY
PLEASE PRINT
I/we ____________________________________________________, being owners of the
property located at ________________________________________________, ,
and member(s) of XYZ Community Association, Inc. do hereby authorize and appoint the
President of the Board of Directors or____________________________(insert name of
homeowner who will vote on your behalf) who is a member of XYZ Community Association Inc,
to be my/our proxy, with full power of substitution to act and vote for and on behalf of
me/us at the XYZ Community Association Inc. Annual Meeting to be held .
This proxy shall remain in full force and effect until such time as it shall be revoked
by me/us in writing, until I/We transfer title to my/our property in, or by my/our attendance
at the meeting.

Owner Signature: ___________________________________________ Date: __________

Owner signature: ___________________________________________ Date: __________

If unable to attend this meeting, please complete and return this proxy to

(2) Ballot (a separate document)
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:121


11/13/2019 9:58 AM  
From what you have posted, the CC&R's do not allow the board president to use the proxy if it's blank. It's just some tactical wording in the proxy form itself and the president and the neighbor using the proxies to his/her advantage.

Looks like your neighbors got confused on the proxy wording and didn't put in the designated proxy holder (although some probably did) and it went to the board president and his/her neighbor.

You have already requested copies of the proxies so you will be able to figure out if the president or someone scratched out your name or someone else's, that is if they actually show you anything. I don't think you can overturn the election results, you don't have enough votes unless you can collect more proxies the next time but you can definitely expose them, lets see how they respond.

Any chance the 3rd member that was not up for election can be trusted to provide you with any information? It sure looks like they did something to keep you off the board, did something you did prompt them to act this way?
ND
(PA)

Posts:375


11/13/2019 9:59 AM  
Posted By PaulJ6 on 11/13/2019 9:14 AM

. . .
I don't think that "full power of substitution" means that the person who receives the proxy can go against instructions from the person who gave the proxy.
. . .




Agree with this statement. "Full power of substitution" does not indicate that the desired/directed vote can be changed. In my experience, "full power of substitution" means that whoever is designated as the proxy can further delegate that proxy to someone else . . . a different individual, but someone still voting as desired/directed by the person giving the proxy.


Further . . . on the mathematical possibility of the votes. You are correct that the total isn't possible (if your count of families, board members, and proxies is accurate). Your math indicates a max of 50 ballots, with a total maximum possibility of 100 votes being cast. HOA Mgm't apparently accounts for 103 votes (an impossibility).

Definitely several reasons to challenge the election results.
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:121


11/13/2019 10:07 AM  
Posted By ND on 11/13/2019 9:59 AM
Posted By PaulJ6 on 11/13/2019 9:14 AM

. . .
I don't think that "full power of substitution" means that the person who receives the proxy can go against instructions from the person who gave the proxy.
. . .




Agree with this statement. "Full power of substitution" does not indicate that the desired/directed vote can be changed. In my experience, "full power of substitution" means that whoever is designated as the proxy can further delegate that proxy to someone else . . . a different individual, but someone still voting as desired/directed by the person giving the proxy.


Further . . . on the mathematical possibility of the votes. You are correct that the total isn't possible (if your count of families, board members, and proxies is accurate). Your math indicates a max of 50 ballots, with a total maximum possibility of 100 votes being cast. HOA Mgm't apparently accounts for 103 votes (an impossibility).

Definitely several reasons to challenge the election results.




I believe the ballots stated vote for 2 candidates so the number is possible however the math may still be off if only 50 ballots were submitted, some votes should of gone to the OP. But should be around 54 ballots.
ND
(PA)

Posts:375


11/13/2019 10:26 AM  
OP indicated:

- "Annual meeting attended by 17 families and 3 board members. (and 30 proxies.)" . . . 17 + 3 + 30 = 50 (assuming all represent different households) . . . maximum of 50 ballots.

- "Each household could choose maximum 2 out of 3 candidates." . . . key words are maximum 2 . . . in theory, each ballot could be cast with 0, 1, or 2 votes on it . . . in reality, each ballot would have 1 or 2 votes on it, most having 2 . . . 50 ballots with 2 votes (max) each = 50 x 2 = 100 total possible votes.

There should be no question as to how many households were represented in the vote, how many ballots were handed out and received back, how many votes were cast, and which candidates received however many votes.

With 100 total votes possible and management company reporting that total vote count is 103, this immediately gives reason to question things.
SheilaJ1
(South Carolina)

Posts:121


11/13/2019 10:51 AM  
Posted By ND on 11/13/2019 10:26 AM
OP indicated:

- "Annual meeting attended by 17 families and 3 board members. (and 30 proxies.)" . . . 17 + 3 + 30 = 50 (assuming all represent different households) . . . maximum of 50 ballots.

- "Each household could choose maximum 2 out of 3 candidates." . . . key words are maximum 2 . . . in theory, each ballot could be cast with 0, 1, or 2 votes on it . . . in reality, each ballot would have 1 or 2 votes on it, most having 2 . . . 50 ballots with 2 votes (max) each = 50 x 2 = 100 total possible votes.

There should be no question as to how many households were represented in the vote, how many ballots were handed out and received back, how many votes were cast, and which candidates received however many votes.

With 100 total votes possible and management company reporting that total vote count is 103, this immediately gives reason to question things.


True, the numbers are not adding up. Overall, the only thing the OP can expose is the proxy business and the count. Like I said, something prompted them to do this.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/13/2019 1:19 PM  
I got reply from HOA management:

My question:
"Number of ballots sent via proxy and initial vote was for me. Means resident already checked my name when they sent their proxy."
Management Answer: 9


This means, my 9 votes were changed. Since they "directed proxy", these votes cannot be changed, atleast my name cannot be scracted out.
Please confirm if this is not true.

Further, out of these 9 proxies, 2 of residents came to give me hard copy but I told them to email to HOA. Proxy name was empty so it means by default it went to President.
One of them had president's name scrached out and only my name was checked. Other has President and My name checked. Both votes changed by president in her favour.

I requested official review of election.

Please let me know what to next.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8867


11/13/2019 2:39 PM  
Madan

According to what you say, there appears to be some irregularities. That said, it appears you were going to lose based on the Proxies assigned to the President. Why keep beating a dead horse? Your chances of getting the BOD to order a new election are slim to none. Actually none.

Be better prepared for the next election. Gather your own Proxies and go armed with them.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6711


11/13/2019 5:07 PM  
I cpleley agree with JohnC, Madan.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/14/2019 6:15 AM  
HOA mgmt sent me new corrected vote count. My vote is still 4, president 36, new candidate 34.
(25 proxy votes and 12 in the meeting)
On election day, new candidate announced and president took all the proxies, altered 9 "directed proxy/ballots" and voted for herself and new candidate.

I am new to this 9 years old community.
In last annual meeting, president was saying nobody comes for the meeting and 3rd seat is empty. So I joined to help.

All I wanted was that election should be fair, there was no need for this kind of politics. The resident who voted for me are upset as they did not know their votes were altered. Some of them did not want to vote for president and scratched her name out.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/14/2019 6:17 AM  

HOA mgmt updated the proxy and meeting vote count when I asked for it.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:526


11/14/2019 7:07 AM  
If I were in the OP's position, here's what I'd be thinking:

* I agree with John that the OP would probably have lost anyway, even without the proxies being altered.

* If the OP had won, then he/she would be a minority. The current president and the other director form a majority, thus have the ability to control any board decisions. In practice, this means that the OP would be unable to have things their way unless they're very good at politicking and persuasion.

* Many board members would consider being the minority opinion on everything to be an unacceptable situation. It would mean that, should someone sue the board (for example), the OP would be sued right along with the others even if the OP had been adamantly against whatever it was that got them sued. (In fact, I resigned from my board when I found myself in this situation.)

Knowing all this, I would sit myself down and figure out exactly what I hoped to accomplish and the odds of being successful. After that,I would either walk away (if the odds are poor) or come up with an action plan to achieve my goals. There would be a second round of "do I walk away" after coming up with the action plan - if my goal didn't justify the amount of effort needed to achieve it, I would walk.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/14/2019 7:43 AM  
Before me, she already had majority. Current 2 board members are together since past 6-7 years. I filled 3rd vacant seat.
In this election I also voted for her. I thanked her and appreciated her work for being able to find time and work for HOA for past so many years.
Even if re-election are done, I am not contesting. But if president is altering the votes, then it is not ethically right. I hope that she accept the mistake and promise not to do this in next election.
JeffT2
(Iowa)

Posts:501


11/14/2019 3:59 PM  
For the future, or maybe to revise the vote count:

"full power of substitution" refers to changing the person who is the proxy, and does not refer to hanging votes. You can Google those words for references to show to the management company and the board. Maybe it will help change their mind.

Given that this refers to changing the proxy not the vote, ask them under what authority they changed people's votes.

Proxies and Ballots should not be used at the same time. Here is an article by a NC law firm:

Written Ballot vs. Proxies
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3910


11/14/2019 10:38 PM  
Hard to follow what you're saying Madan.

On the one hand, you say that your name was crossed out and someone else's entered instead.

On the other hand, nothing in the copy of the document you provided has a place where your name could have been entered as a candidate.

Am I missing something?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/15/2019 5:30 AM  

2019 ANNUAL MEETING BALLOT
___________________________________________________________________________
I hereby cast my ballot for two (2) candidates to serve a 3-year term listed
below to serve on the Board of Directors.

____ _________________________
____ __________________________
____ ____________________________________
____ ____________________________________
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/15/2019 5:31 AM  
2019 ANNUAL MEETING BALLOT
___________________________________________________________________________
I hereby cast my ballot for two (2) candidates to serve a 3-year term listed below to serve on the Board of Directors.

____ _________________________
____ __________________________
____ ____________________________________
____ ____________________________________
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/15/2019 5:31 AM  
2019 ANNUAL MEETING BALLOT
___________________________________________________________________________
I hereby cast my ballot for two (2) candidates to serve a 3-year term listed below to serve on the Board of Directors.

____ President_________________________
____ MadanA__________________________
____ ____________________________________
____ ____________________________________
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/15/2019 5:33 AM  
my earlier 2 post, somehow names did not show up.
SueW6
(Michigan)

Posts:613


11/15/2019 6:08 AM  
Seens odd that any candidate would have control over submitted proxies. That should have been handled by the secretary, as long as he/ she was not also a candidate.


MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/15/2019 6:47 AM  
So full summary from HOA mgmt:

1) resident received proxy form and ballot with 2 names(president's and my) printed on it in the mail in late september.
2) 25 residents sent their proxies (via email or hard copy). Some filled out President's name and some left it blank, which means by default president was proxy owner.
3) 9 of out of 25 above checked my name on the ballot.
out of these 9 ballot, At least one of them scractched president's name and gave me his/her vote. Please note that each resident could choose 2 candidates on the ballot.

On the meeting day

3) 12 families showed up, including 3 board members(President, treasure and me).
4) new candidate provided his/her own self-nomination form in the meeting,(allowed per bylaw)
so now there are 3 candidates on the ballot. People who send their proxy and ballot only knew of 2 candidates.
5) president presented 25 proxies and ballots. All these 25 ballots had 2 votes, President and New Candidate. My name from 9 ballots was scractched out.
6) out of 12 in the meeting, 4 voted for me, 11 for president, 9 for new candidate.

All 25 ballots sent with proxies, all 25 votes went to President and new candidate.
Even though my name of selected on 9 of these ballots initally.

final count:
President: 25+11=36
New candidate: 25+9=34
Me: 4
SueW6
(Michigan)

Posts:613


11/15/2019 7:23 AM  
The end result would not be changed, even if you were awarded the 9 votes., so work in the background to bring about changes.

It’s not a good idea to mix printed ballots with nominations from the floor.

Candidates for election should not handle any ballots or proxies.

Get on the election committee and work to iron out this very messy voting procedure.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3362


11/15/2019 12:11 PM  
So much confusion and lack of propert terminology. The person who has been given the proxy by an owner is the proxy "holder", not "owner".

A proxy is not a ballot. What does it mean that the president "presented 25 proxies and ballots"? I think I know what you mean, but that's not a good way to describe it.

"All 25 ballots sent with proxies..." One should submit a proxy OR a ballot. Not both. If a proxy is named then the proxy holder should fill out a ballot and drop it in the ballot box. If someone gives their proxy AND submits a ballot, then what's on their filled-in ballot serves ONLY to direct the proxy holder how to vote; it's not really a ballot. The actual ballots sent in by those giving their proxy to another should not be placed in the ballot box. They're voting by proxy, not ballot, and the proxy holder should be the one filling in the actual ballot that is submitted.

If your election procedures and rules permit "abentee ballots" then an owner can fill in their own ballot and submit it. No proxy required. That is technically completely different than voting by proxy, no matter how much it may seem like the same thing.

I also agree you should be careful with printed ballots when you'll be accepting nominations from the floor.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3910


11/16/2019 3:33 AM  
Attached is a copy of the combined Proxy/Ballot that we have used for many years. Our state laws allow it. Other states would require separate Proxies and Ballots.

Our document is our best attempt to explain some of the potential confusion about proxies.

Around 20 years ago, the Board changed the bylaws so that nominations are not allowed from the floor.

At various times, the BOD discussed the idea of changing to a default proxy person. Always rejected. If no one is filled in as the proxy, the ballot is not counted.

The last time we had more candidates than open seats was around 10 years ago.

For the reasons above, elections are dull. If someone makes an error in filling out the proxy/ballot, we notify them if the ballot was disqualified, and tell them what they would need to do differently for their vote to be counted at the next election.

Attachment: 11116332634571.pdf


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3910


11/16/2019 3:37 AM  
Posted By MadanA on 11/15/2019 6:47 AM
So full summary from HOA mgmt:

1) resident received proxy form and ballot with 2 names(president's and my) printed on it in the mail in late september.
2) 25 residents sent their proxies (via email or hard copy). Some filled out President's name and some left it blank, which means by default president was proxy owner.
3) 9 of out of 25 above checked my name on the ballot.
out of these 9 ballot, At least one of them scractched president's name and gave me his/her vote. Please note that each resident could choose 2 candidates on the ballot.

On the meeting day

3) 12 families showed up, including 3 board members(President, treasure and me).
4) new candidate provided his/her own self-nomination form in the meeting,(allowed per bylaw)
so now there are 3 candidates on the ballot. People who send their proxy and ballot only knew of 2 candidates.
5) president presented 25 proxies and ballots. All these 25 ballots had 2 votes, President and New Candidate. My name from 9 ballots was scractched out.
6) out of 12 in the meeting, 4 voted for me, 11 for president, 9 for new candidate.

All 25 ballots sent with proxies, all 25 votes went to President and new candidate.
Even though my name of selected on 9 of these ballots initally.

final count:
President: 25+11=36
New candidate: 25+9=34
Me: 4



IMO, very little of this is relevant.

What was described here is that your ballots are subject to manipulation. Any time that a document can be manipulated after the fact, there is a basis for challenging the entire election.

How do you know that the only alteration was crossing out names?
How do you know that new ballots weren't manufactured out of thin air by the folks running the election?

Sleazy deserves to be challenged.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8867


11/16/2019 9:11 AM  
As we allow nominations from the floor, we have found notifying people who is running prior to the Annual Meeting is a waste and often misleading. In the notice of the Annual Meeting we notify how many spots will be open and who has been filling those slots.

Our MC runs our election and makes up the ballots of the fly. As we rarely have over 30 people at the meeting this is not a difficult task. Also we rarely have more running than there are open spots. We often have to beg for someone to step up and be on the BOD.

We only ever once had a vote on an issue (Bylaw Change that passed) at the Annual Meeting other than elections.

The Proxy we send out with the Annual Meeting notice is to establish quorum and it also names the BOD as the Proxy holder unless you name another owner. No doubt in our case the BOD could decide the election outcome based on the Proxies they Hold. The one time we had a contested election, one of the candidates had been openly critical of the BOD's failures. The BOD specifically cast their votes so this person was not elected. I know that for a fact. Typically when the BOD mails out a Proxy, it will result with them in control if nothing is changed.




GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3362


11/16/2019 1:04 PM  
Posted By NpS on 11/16/2019 3:37 AM
Sleazy deserves to be challenged.

Yeah, amen to that. The whole election described is tainted beyond redemption. With the procedures and actions described, there's very little reason to suppose that the actual will of the voters was carried out.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/18/2019 6:31 AM  
when I requested official review of the election, HOA managament emailed me saying below.
Please let me know if HOA managament response is correct.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe the confusion is that you feel that the proxies were “directed proxies” – they were
not, they were “general proxies”. If the proxy was a “directed proxy”, the proxy holder would
have to vote as the person designated. The “general proxy” allows the proxy-holder to choose
how to cast the vote.

The language in the proxy used clearly states:

“I/we ______________, being owners of the property located at ______________, City, State and
member(s) of XYZ Community Association, Inc. do hereby authorize and appoint the President of
the Board of Directors or________ (insert name of homeowner who will vote on your behalf) who
is a member of XYZ Community Association Inc, to be my/our proxy, with full power of substitution
to act and vote for and on behalf of me/us at the XYZ Community Association Inc. Annual Meeting
to be held Date”
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ND
(PA)

Posts:375


11/18/2019 9:07 AM  
If you asked to review election results (meaning you physically wanted to count proxies, ballots, votes, etc.) and that is what they responded, then they are not answering your question . . . probably intentionally. However, their response could be accurate depending on perspective or interpretation of the ballots/proxies.

Unfortunately for you and fortunately for them is that the docs owners received in the mail (proxy and ballot) were vague and confusing enough that regardless of what actually happened with the documents, the MC and Board could claim the opposite was true. Either way you lose. The procedure (if you want to call it that) was sloppy enough (perhaps intentionally) as to confuse owners about what they were supposed to do or what the results of their actions would mean regardless of their intent.

If you want to challenge things officially, present your evidence/case to your neighbors, gather enough support (IAW your docs), and present to Board and MC. Would be harder for them to ignore a majority of owners instead of just ignoring you.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3910


11/19/2019 8:12 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/16/2019 9:11 AM
As we allow nominations from the floor, we have found notifying people who is running prior to the Annual Meeting is a waste and often misleading. In the notice of the Annual Meeting we notify how many spots will be open and who has been filling those slots.


Don't understand the misleading comment.

Back when we allowed nominations from the floor, there was still a huge distinction between the pre-announced folks and those who got a floor nomination.

The pre-announced folks wrote a short bio with an explanation of why they wanted to serve -- which got sent out to the community in advance of the election.

Not so with the nominees from the floor. No information was provided about them. And as a result, many of them weren't prepared for time needed to fulfill those responsibilities.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3910


11/19/2019 8:22 AM  
Posted By MadanA on 11/18/2019 6:31 AM
when I requested official review of the election, HOA managament emailed me saying below.
Please let me know if HOA managament response is correct.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe the confusion is that you feel that the proxies were “directed proxies” – they were
not, they were “general proxies”. If the proxy was a “directed proxy”, the proxy holder would
have to vote as the person designated. The “general proxy” allows the proxy-holder to choose
how to cast the vote.

The language in the proxy used clearly states:

“I/we ______________, being owners of the property located at ______________, City, State and
member(s) of XYZ Community Association, Inc. do hereby authorize and appoint the President of
the Board of Directors or________ (insert name of homeowner who will vote on your behalf) who
is a member of XYZ Community Association Inc, to be my/our proxy, with full power of substitution
to act and vote for and on behalf of me/us at the XYZ Community Association Inc. Annual Meeting
to be held Date”
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If they sent 2 documents, one a proxy and the other a ballot - there should have been a third document -- fully explaining how each of the other 2 docs would be used. In a prior post, I attached a copy of what we use. It spells things out clearly how things work in my HOA. You should have had something similar.

But that's not the issue that I reacted to. You said that a name was scratched out and another put in its place. To that, I cry "foul." Under no circumstances should anyone ever alter a ballot. Once alterations to a ballot are considered acceptable, they are open to any kind of changes. In your shoes, I could never trust an election where my altered document gets counted against the way I thought I was voting.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8867


11/19/2019 9:49 AM  
Posted By NpS on 11/19/2019 8:12 AM
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/16/2019 9:11 AM
As we allow nominations from the floor, we have found notifying people who is running prior to the Annual Meeting is a waste and often misleading. In the notice of the Annual Meeting we notify how many spots will be open and who has been filling those slots.


Don't understand the misleading comment.

Back when we allowed nominations from the floor, there was still a huge distinction between the pre-announced folks and those who got a floor nomination.

The pre-announced folks wrote a short bio with an explanation of why they wanted to serve -- which got sent out to the community in advance of the election.

Not so with the nominees from the floor. No information was provided about them. And as a result, many of them weren't prepared for time needed to fulfill those responsibilities.



We do not require nor request a written bio. We have only once had more candidates than slots to fill so we usually end up begging for candidates.
MadanA
(North Carolina)

Posts:20


11/19/2019 5:31 PM  
There was no 3rd document. The proxy and ballot was on the same page. This is what( please see below) all resident received.
Resident filled the proxy and selected candidate from the ballot. Does that mean it was not "directed proxy"?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


2019 ANNUAL MEETING
PROXY
PLEASE PRINT

I/we ____________________________________________________, being owners of the
property located at ________________________________________________, ,
and member(s) of XYZ Community Association, Inc. do hereby authorize and appoint the
President of the Board of Directors or____________________________(insert name of
homeowner who will vote on your behalf) who is a member of XYZ Community Association Inc,
to be my/our proxy, with full power of substitution to act and vote for and on behalf of
me/us at the XYZ Community Association Inc. Annual Meeting to be held .
This proxy shall remain in full force and effect until such time as it shall be revoked
by me/us in writing, until I/We transfer title to my/our property in, or by my/our attendance
at the meeting.

Owner Signature: ___________________________________________ Date: __________

Owner signature: ___________________________________________ Date: __________

If unable to attend this meeting, please complete and return this proxy to

email address:____________
Physical address: ______________________________

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


2019 ANNUAL MEETING BALLOT

I hereby cast my ballot for two (2) candidates to serve a 3-year term listed below to serve on the Board of Directors.

____ President_________________________
____ MadanA__________________________
____ ____________________________________
____ ____________________________________

NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3910


11/19/2019 6:20 PM  
Attached is our combined proxy/ballot.

A homeowner can use it as a directed proxy or a non-directed (general) proxy. Everything is spelled out.

Your documents allow a vote to be stolen. Mine doesn't.

The responsibility for a fair and honest election rests with your BOD. They can't just scratch out one name and enter another. Altering a ballot destroys the legitimacy of the election, especially since those in control can alter the outcome of the election without the knowledge of the people voting.

In your shoes, I would challenge the election. If necessary, through the courts.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3910


11/19/2019 6:22 PM  
Oops. The attachment didn't take.

I sent it attached to a post I made on 11/16.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > President changed the votes using proxy



Get 2 months of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!



News Articles Provided by: Community Associations Network
News, articles and blogs about condos/HOA's

Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.







General Legal Notice:  The content of forum messages are from the posting member and have not been reviewed nor endorsed by HOATalk.com.  Messages posted by HOATalk or other members are for informational purposes only, are not legal or professional advice and do not constitute an attorney-client relationship.  Readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel.  HOATalk is not a licensed attorney, CPA, tax advisor, financial advisor or any other licensed professional.  HOATalk accepts ads from sponsors but does not verify sponsor qualifications nor endorse/guarantee any sponsor's product or service.
HindmanSanchez Legal Notice:  (For messages posted by HindmanSanchez) This message has been prepared by HindmanSanchez for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Members of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send us confidential information unless you speak with one of our attorneys and get authorization to send that information to us. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in our firm. Our attorneys are licensed to practice law in the state of Colorado only.

Legal Notice For Messages Posted by Sponsoring Attorneys: This message has been prepared by the sponsoring attorney for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Readers of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send any sponsoring attorney confidential information unless you speak with the sponsoring attorney or an attorney from the sponsoring attorney’s firm and get authorization to send that information to them. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in the firm of the sponsoring attorney. Sponsoring attorneys that post messages here are licensed to practice law in a specific state or states as indicated in their message signature or sponsor’s profile page. (NOTE: A ‘sponsoring attorney’ is an attorney that is a HOATalk.com official sponsor and is identified as such in the posted message or on our sponsor page.)

Copyright HOA Talk.com, A Service of Community123 LLC ( Homeowners Association Discussions )   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement