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LauraM1
(Florida)

Posts:2

09/20/2007 8:07 PM
Look at the Docs. I think you will find that only Members or "their agents" usually meaning lawyers, can attend meetings. If your DOC allow 'agents' have the member sign a letter that the renter is the 'agent' and maybe the renter could attend??

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/21/2007 6:03 AM
John, I never found Nancy's post to be particularly self serving. Certainly not any more than most of us that post here. You do raise a valid point though, or at least it came to mind when I read your post. As you know, we speak from experience and how the world has effected our lives and most folks posting here have only lived in maybe 2 or 3 HOA's, sso we have the accumulated knowledge of one person. Now the Board has the accumulated knowledge and experience of all the Board members. You also point out that most of the time your board acts in unison (concensus). It would not be unusual for the Board not to ddisclose votes on actions to the members. I real believe that Boards gain more knowledge than the average HO, but I don't see them acting in unison of in concert with other HOA's or Condo associations. I, personally, would like to see my boards become more knowledgeable about the legislative aspect of the association and certainly take more interest in communicating with local and state officals, to present the HOA's concerns. A large HOA's should be a political force, smaller HOA's could form ad hoc committees to be legislative contacts. I am pleased that the HOA I live in has established an association of other HOA's in the area to discuss mutual problems. I believe it should be extended to be a political arm that contacts civic and political leaders. Our CAI credentialed Manager is active in several areas of the County Offices, such as zoning, development standards, property issues and county council issues, she runs a tight ship and it shows. What are your thoughts on the BOD becoming more political and more knowledageable about state and county affairs?

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/21/2007 6:25 AM
Laura, Better yet, change the documents to exclude renters as voters. I wonder why that was ever inserted in CC&R's anyway. The only good reason I can think of is the developer at time of creation of HOA wanted to insure his renters would have the vote during the transition, I don't know. I am not saying exclude them from regular meetings, they certainly should be treated with respect and given a chance to speak before the Board, and participate in Community Affairs, they already have the right to use facilities. If an owner is so disinterested that he would assign his vote to, in many cases, someone that has a relationship with his tenet is strictly monetary, I don't think that shows good intent of the owner. I just don't like the idea, and can't fathom why it is put in documents. Suppose a renter is an active member of his association and takes a real interest and has good knowledge (better than the owner), then let him tell the owners how to vote, and charge the owner (as agreed at purchase time) that he has responsibilities as an owner and one of them is to vote.

NancyD1
(Florida)

Posts:447

09/21/2007 11:11 AM
Posted By JohnM3 on 09/20/2007 8:12 AM Dear Nancy: Stay in California they need people who split hairs. Leave the rest of us alone to fight our own battles. We have been operating quite well for 20 years without spending a mountain of money and in all those years we have only had 2 instances where we could not come to a fair and reasonable solutuion without involving LAWYERS> THEY ARE A PLAGUE ON THIS GREAT COUNTRY OF OURS. There are more lawyers in Florida alone than all of China , Japan, and the rest of the ASAIAN Nations combined. And they all are looking to sue someone. Example a lawyer becomes the Lt Gov of a southern state he has a run in with his hoa he wants to paint his home some wacky color in violation of the hoa docs. So instead of compling no he deguts all HOAs in Florida that no longer have half the power to keep there hoas looking livable. ( 14 Colors allowed in his hoa ) Yea thats exactly what we need more rigid rules by lawyers. Did you ever stop to think that maybe what they were trying to do was for the benefit of the whole HOA. No your intention obviously is to go to meetings find something wrong and go hire a lawyer and sue yourself. Brilliant move. Remember your BOD serves as human beings subject to making mistakes and trying to do right in a bad situation. So instead of trying to find right try helping for a change. You will be amazed at how hard it is to get little things done because of the stupid govt rules. By the way expert HOAs are created by the cities not the state or the federal govt get your facts straight. Dear John, I live in Florida. Where was I splitting hairs? Noreen, the original poster, asked why her HOA would not allow her to attend meetings. I told her about my HOA By-Laws and quoted the statute FL 720. I also said that as a non-homeowner, she showed such an interest in the HOA, I would love to have her live in mine. Every HOA would be better off if we had more people who were as interested and knowledgeable in their community as she is in hers. Re-read my post. You did not read my post, because I never said to sue anyone. I know nothing about any Lt. Gov. of FL wanting to paint his home and the situation you described. But I do know that he had nothing to do with changing "all HOAs in Florida" or the laws that pertain to HOA's, that is done by the legislature. I don't have any idea what you are saying in your next two paragraphs. The FACT is that HOAs were first started by the Federal Housing Administration in 1935. HOA's are governed by federal law, state law, county or city laws and then the HOA covenants and documents. Where did the Fair Housing Act or the Dept. of Housing and Urban Development come from, your city. All of these federal organizations were instrumental in developing the primary laws that allow HOA's to be built.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/21/2007 12:44 PM
Nancy, John, Not taking sides, just FYI Copied from another site. Not my opinion nor my responsibility for anything written below. We are seeing more and more often the true face of our property associations: A HUGE LIABILITY FOR THE OWNERS! Potential buyers are often lured into buying homes in associations with the claim that these associations are protecting -- and are even increasing -- the property values. Nothing further from the truth: Recent law suits have shown that they are actually a huge liability for the owners, not even counting the special assessments caused by hurricane damage to so-called common properties. Association members have seen more than a fair share of stupid law suits being fought that have finally cost owners lots of money. These law suits are often caused by blue-eyed board members with a personal agenda -- cheered on by their attorneys. But it gets real expensive when association boards start tangling with the FAIR HOUSING ACT. The latest in a series of dangerous encounters with the Fair Housing Act is playing out in the Normandy Isles Homeowners' Association in Green Acres. After lots of harassment by the board -- and filed law suits -- the attorney for the disabled women filed a $10-MILLION counter suit. Please go here for more detailed info: http://www.ccfj.net/courtdecFLNIHOA2.html We have seen some real devastating rulings and settlements that have cost owners huge amounts of money. Just recently the KEY COLONY NO. 4 CONDOMINIUM ASS., INC. had to settle a FAIR HOUSING case, wasting more than $2 million in owners' money. Please see some of the more outrageous examples here: http://www.ccfjedu.net/FairHousing.htm WIN OR LOSE -- IT COST HOMEOWNERS A BUNDLE! We really need serious legislative changes in association law that will finally stop the expensive -- but useless -- law suits, financial mismanagement, uncontrolled spending and even clear embezzlement!. Otherwise we see the initially good idea of associations turn into a serious nightmare for owners, especially in a time where the cost of living in Florida is already driving many of our neighbors out of the state.

DianeM1
(California)

Posts:9

09/21/2007 4:39 PM
I suggest anyone thinking of buying a home in an HOA to first read the book "Villa Appalling! Destroying the Myth of Affordable Community Living" by Vanitzian & Glassman. It would bring to light a lot of issues that come up most in these blogs.

NancyD1
(Florida)

Posts:447

09/22/2007 3:01 AM
Diane, I did read the book a few years ago. The book does point out the good and bad aspects of a restricted community, but it was very biased. The attorney's who wrote the book based most of their research on California deed restricted communities and their involvement in defending these communities. Each deed restricted community has it's own particulars. Many new home buyers purchasing in a HOA do not read the documents, or they do not know the extent that a HOA will go to to protect it's state laws and covenant laws that pertain to the association they are buying into. They think that they are purchasing a nice home where the common areas are well kept, the homes look good and there are nice amenities. I have participated in a few hundred closings in HOA developments. It never ceases to amaze me that a new purchaser will sign a document that they have read and understand the covenants and other doc's that the community has provided. When did they read them, in the hour they were in a closing? There are future purchasers that will ask to review the doc's before they buy, but very few. These people will make an informed decision if they buy. When they move into their new home, they find out that they cannot paint the house the color the want or when they get an assessment to renovate the community pool they are surprised. Why? Because they have done their due diligence. Then they read all the restrictions and they complain. If someone is disappointed in a community where that community follows their doc's, it goes to ignorance of the purchase.

DianeM1
(California)

Posts:9

09/22/2007 8:40 AM
Nancy - you're right about buyers who didn't read the covenants before signing on the "fateful" dotted line. Many say they were given the CC & R's either AT the signing, which of course would not allow time to sign, other say they just after the signing and never read them. In my particular HOA, the agents for the Builder (Ryland) told people, if you don't sign now, I have 20 other people who want your home and we won't hold it. There were other unethical tactics used to motivate people to buy homes here. For example, our community butted up to a golf course. The agents sold homes on the premise that they had access to the golf course as part of the package. This was not true, the course belonged to the HOA Community on the opposite side of the course. To join, it was a $350 per month membership. We were told that there would be no other developments going up around the perimeter of our community. Four years after completion of our tract, Van Daele Homes carved a swatch in the hillside directly behind us and 500 new "family" homes went in. We now have teens climbing our walls and vandalizing our community, graffitti, etc. I would encourage anyone who is thinking of buying in an HOA, to get a copy of the CC&R's and Bylaws, even if you have to pay for them, and read them through. Even if you don't understand the 'legal lingo', you will understand most of the content. If you've purchased in an HOA, you are ahead of the game and should know what to ask or to avoid them altogether.

Jadedone4
(Virginia)

Posts:495

09/23/2007 10:21 AM
Diane, I am sure that it will occur... but you might not want to post up names of builders/developers in your posts, HOAtalk will probably remove in time. Keeps everyone honest and protects the folks who run the site. As far as I can tell there hasn't been over fifty years of covenant restrictive properties/communities in the time-line. I think that most (myself included) purchased our homes (in HOA's etc) without having fully read the documents. My wife and I knew when we searched and finalized our personal decision to buy here, that it was HOA restrictive. There was no "push" on the sales staff to make the documents readily available - even though it was a skeleton at best (developer documents, for a new construction community). As the President of my 500 owner property, I am better versed in the documents than our M/C, the developer, and most owners. That is now... the day of closing I was as dumb as bricks and probably couldn't spell "H-O-A." Going into future homes, thanks to experiences in this community and from advice from this site, I know better, and know better the appropriate questions and materials to request to review. The original post was about renters attending meetings, and for the most part I do not take much issue with them doing so. IN MY COMMUNITY, most of the "renters" are retired folks, both from previous HOA boards, experiences, and from their jobs. So there is a wealth of resources that can be tapped, and I appreciate their experiences. Hell, one renting couple have been to more meetings than any other owners in this community. So long as they understand the limitations of their participation, I think that it would be appropriate.

DianeM1
(California)

Posts:9

09/23/2007 11:30 AM
Jade: Thank you for the advice re names. We opted to lease a home in this HOA before buying. The prices were phenomenally low but it was well worth it to us to first see how the HOA conducted itself. After move-in we met many buyers who were furious about the agents that handled their sale. Non-disclosure, CC & R and Bylaws issues were not monitored. Not only has our board not fully read or complied with the CC & R's and Bylaws, they have covertly added then "struck" Articles from the CC & R's that never existed. Expecially where Renters participation is addressed. I can't help but wonder how many other Articles have been tampered with. We are a community at war with one another over new candidates and at war within the Board. We have 1158 homes with only 5 Board members. Four at the moment and it's two against two. Hard to believe these are "Adult - Seniors". Is that an oxymoron??? For exmaple at a Board meeting: "If Joe Blow gets on the Board, I'm quitting", "if Tom the Terrible doesn't step down, I'm stepping down", "If whiny Tiny's man wins, I'm going to kill him". It goes on and on. Thank God we didn't purchase in here. It doesn't even matter to us that there are numerous homes that are NOW selling for their original or lower prices. We would never buy here or in any other HOA. Back to Renters attending meetings... We are embroiled in an election that immediately followed a failed recall. As a renter I showed interest and have been invited to numerous forums, and I constantly get cc'd in the email campaigning. My insight seems to threaten a couple of the candidates that I'm not campaigning for. So you see, a "Renter" can have an impact on a community. I have been able to stave off legal threats to homeowners who were asking legitimate questions of Board members. This website and others,have proven to be a very valuable resource in addressing many HOA issues. I continue suggest to our homeowners with internet to join and participate in these blogs so that I can get some rest. It has become a full-time job answering questions via email. Note: We don't vote for our owners, which seems to keep the other owners happy. We simply advise my owners of our preference and they make own their decision. Your letter is well written with very good advice. Thanks again.

JohnM3
(Florida)

Posts:288

11/14/2007 3:25 PM
Sorry for taking so long in getting back but been busy in a war with our city. To answer questions put forth on my post. I detest Lawyers big time. Every encounter I have been a party or partipant to has been we were taken to the cleaners on. Thank God he works in funny ways 1 of the lawyers who handled our lawsuit with the developer who buried 80,000 tires in we won the lawsuit in court with pictures but the lawyers screwed us on the money they handled us 308 seperate parties. The individual owners = 307 and the Assoc as 1 total 308. Well he eventually became Sheriff of our county and now going to jail for Income Tax Fraud...The balance of the law firm gets 1500 a month for 15 years from the major developer the biggest in the country. In my opinion its not the HOA that is a horror but the city govt. Example we decided to build a clubhouse our cost start to finish $57,000 got it 57k right. Then the city stepped in after the city commision spoke so nicely about us bringing them a problem then a cure that cost them nothing. Then we got into the building dept. Then made us make over $80,000 in changes and modifications to the building. They made us submit 5 sets of pland at $500 per set. Then threw away 3 sets $1500 bye bye. Then the list goes on and on and on.We wrote email after email to them no answer no help. Finally I went to all the city meetings and got to find out who was the most conservative member and talked to him and helped get him re-elected. He put me in to a person in the city managers office and she opened vistas beyond my wildest dreams Bless Her Heart. The mayor no answer no help fromm the balance of them. They are lazy politicans looking for a pension period. There are 57 HOAs in this city 57 and the city has never had a meeting of them to discuss mutual problems that might make the owners of the property have a better place to live in. Instead its business as usual. We are a starter community the houses sold originally for 84000 to 97000. We mow all lawns plus front back and sides of all homes. Furnish free sprinkler system to any members home that has at least 20 ft of common ground touching it.Or if the house borders on any of the 3 lakes we have. we are 307 homesites with 305 actual homes that were all finished 20 years ago. The average selling price is $275,000 for 2 story homes on the lake, 1 story homes are going for 250,000 and in our town home section they are going for 200,000 bucks. We have all 3 styles of houses. Diane for your information I am speaking about the present Lt Gov of Florida. He personally put a bill in front of the house at 11pm AT NIGHT AND THEY GUTTED MOST OF THE AUTHORITY OF hoaS IN fLORIDA. oVER A PAINT SCHEME...... Our board consists of myself ( Been on the BOD since the very turnover from the developer ) plus 4 housewives. The men are too lazy to partipate. So our BOD is 5 people our docs say we can go to 7 but we choose not to. We handle problems different than most we have a web site and a property management company for 10 years. Prior to them we went thru 3 others all stunk.If people complain about the BOD we ask them to join we have at least 2 open seats all the time. 90Percent who join the BOD quit after 2 meetings. Its work pure and simple.We have our own roving security cause the local police are too lazy to get out of their cars. Plus they get to take the cars home free transportation at the taxpayers expense. Would I move to another HOA sub-division? In a minute, in a NY minute. Why ? Simple local control. You get more bang for your buck with a HOA. Do they get quirky heck yes but have you ever noticed what our Congress is lik? I wonder when they are gonna enforce some of the Legslatrion that they pump out. If we as BODs pulled half the junk they did we would be lynched by our members. If thats not quirky what is. Remember before you assainate your BOD join it and witness for yourself how hard it is to get things done.......

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

11/14/2007 3:36 PM
THIS IS YOUR "DEAR JOHN "letter from many of us who highly respect and acknowledge NancyD1's responses. She has extremely accurate and great information and does this site a service that not everyone can get ahold of. Your sass was unnescessary . And please get your facts straight first. She is from Florida and had practiced law for many years so she is not just shooting from the hip. Thank You, Donna S.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

11/14/2007 5:34 PM
Donna, I am not sure how many folks will teke this an affront to Nancy personally. But people can read things differently. But put that aside for a moment and whatever you may conclude, you can not fail to recognize what Nancy, and you too Donna, has added to this site. It is comforting to know someone is there to step in if we miss the mark. I am sure we all have posted on sites that brews a constant squabble about anything. Nancy and all you guys make this site work. This is a great thing to have a resource like this, it is even better to be respected by the people that post here. So if anyone comes on here taking pot shots at anyone, they will find they need us more than we need them. Joe recently posted an excellent example of working together and helping each other out and I am most thankful, he knows his stuff and so does Nancy and nearly everyone that sticks around long. It is a learning tree and we come here for the comfort. Joke: I live in a Gated Community but the wife gets loose anyway.

NoreenC
(Florida)

Posts:3

11/14/2007 5:42 PM
I agree Robert, I posted the original question and whenever I've had something I needed help with, most often I've gotten really sound, well thought out suggestions and information. I actually am the homeowner not a renter but I am very grateful for the information I get on this site. Venemous people have their own agenda I suppose. I much prefer the more informative responses and LOVED the gated community joke!

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

11/15/2007 6:01 AM
Thank You Robert for reigning me in on my anger at the poster who has repeately stated how much he hates and dislikes lawyers. That is fine to feel that way but we get it in almost every post. I feel that ANY attack on what a poster has written is distasteful and should not occur. You have smoothed me over so again, THANKS!

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

11/15/2007 8:48 AM
Thank you Donna. Now, to clarify your last, It is fine for you to vent and have your say, we all do that. It is not fine for people to think the solutions to their problems is some self destructive opinion on a group of folks they know nothing about. To get on a public site and make such a condemnation speaks volumes. But I suspect he doesn't really feel that way, be awful hard to go around carrying that load.

AlexL1
(Florida)

Posts:295

11/18/2007 8:51 AM
I have read all of this and I am still perplexed as to whether or not a owner can legally allow a tenant to attend HOA meetings on HIS behalf(this is in cases where the condo unit is in Colorado and the owner lives in New York). Do some states allow such proxy and some do not?

DonH
(Florida)

Posts:9

12/31/2007 10:50 AM
QUOTE: Renters have not signed a covenant with the neighbors the way owners do, their 'contract' is with the landlord, which makes it much more difficult to get them to respond to HOA CCR's. While we have to keep getting in touch with the landlord, it is more time consuming since they invariably live out of town, and own the home as an investment property, not so much invested in the neighborhood as a whole. In Florida renters are as responsible, culpable and "suit-able" as any owner. Florida Statute 720.305 Subsection (1)a-d outlines that mostly anyone present within the community is to be held responsible to the statutes and community's governing documents and can be prosecuted if in violation: 720.305 Obligations of members; remedies at law or in equity; levy of fines and suspension of use rights; failure to fill sufficient number of vacancies on board of directors to constitute a quorum; appointment of receiver upon petition of any member.-- 720.305(1) Each member and the member's tenants, guests, and invitees, and each association, are governed by, and must comply with, this chapter, the governing documents of the community, and the rules of the association. Actions at law or in equity, or both, to redress alleged failure or refusal to comply with these provisions may be brought by the association or by any member against: (a) The association; (b) A member; (c) Any director or officer of an association who willfully and knowingly fails to comply with these provisions; and (d) Any tenants, guests, or invitees occupying a parcel or using the common areas. So the statement "renters have not signed a covenant" is incorrect - at least in Florida....and they can be made to follow recorded and published rules on an HOA to the point of eviction by the HOA from their rental for violations.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

12/31/2007 11:13 AM
Don, Our condo doc in SC say if the renter (defined as anyone other than the owner, paying or not) fails to correct a violation the Board has authority at some point to declare any lease or permission granted by the owner to be a breach of contract and they can evict the tenant. Want to know how many times this has been done in 26 years..........none. No one has even been fined at our place, I don't care what you do. Our Board is all save one absentee owners, of five members, four rent. I can't tell you the times I called owners because of violations or had the manager do it. Problem with us, in addition, is we have all short term rentals (99%). By the time you go through the drill they are getting ready to leave so nothing much gets done. We are in great need of more full time owners. I have never experienced here full time owners runing the show, we only have 4 or five. It may get as many as eight but then it slips back down again for one reason or another. Wonderful place to live but all the Real Estate People can see is investment property, I know some of the 65 units have been sold over and over again since I have been here 17 years).

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