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NoreenC
(Florida)

Posts:3

09/17/2007 6:56 PM
A member of our HOA board insists that renters do not have the right to attend monthly HOA meetings. I am also a new member of this board and believe that renters are entitled to all the rights and privileges of the homeowner with the exception that they may not vote. I'm playing catch up with FL-720 being a transplant from another state. Any help would be appreciated.

DuaneW1
(Georgia)

Posts:34

09/17/2007 7:13 PM
I'll be interested to see what others say to this post, but Noreen, I'm curious as to this comment: 'believe that renters are entitled to all the rights and privileges of the homeowner with the exception that they may not vote.' Renters have not signed a covenant with the neighbors the way owners do, their 'contract' is with the landlord, which makes it much more difficult to get them to respond to HOA CCR's. While we have to keep getting in touch with the landlord, it is more time consuming since they invariably live out of town, and own the home as an investment property, not so much invested in the neighborhood as a whole. I agree that you can't really keep tenants from attending meetings, I'm a little on the fence as to how much input they should have when they don't contribute either financially to the HOA nor does the fact that rentals exist add to the value of our neighborhoods. But, they are our neighbors, and you sure don't want to foster hostility either. This has been an ongoing topic of conversation in our HOA too here in Atlanta. We have almost 30% rentals now, and it's discouraging to see how transitory the neighborhood is becoming. How easy is it to talk about things like this in your meetings if the renters themselves are present and you're not really talking about the tenants as much as you are the rentals? Just curious. Judy

DianeM1
(California)

Posts:9

09/17/2007 7:53 PM
I am a renter in a 55plus community in California. My owners do not live nearby and travel extensively and therefore, cannot keep up with the issues of the HOA. I am one of those rare renters who takes care of the home as if I owned it. I have many friends here and I'm able to participate in most every activity offered at the Clubhouse. The CC & R's and Bylaws, decisions by the Board, corruption, etc. does affect me and my lifestyle as I pay the owner's mortgage payment and Association dues. If dues go up, so does my rent. I attend most of the Board and Townhall Meetings to stay apprised of issues within the community and then email them to my owner. I also typed up a Homeowners Proxy, had my owners sign it and submitted it to the Association. While I do not vote, my owners trust my judgment and vote for my selections. This has worked very well for us. There has only been one meeting in the last 3 years where "renters" were not allowed to attend. With my legal background I have been able to advise and protect many Seniors that live here who were not aware of what the HOA can and can't do to them legally, i.e, threats, assessments, what they can and can't put in their front yards, recalls and the election processes. Therefore, in my personal opinion, Renters (in good standing) should be allowed to attend all meetings, providing they have a Proxy from their owner.

DianeM1
(California)

Posts:9

09/17/2007 7:55 PM
I am a renter in a 55plus community in California. My owners do not live nearby and travel extensively and therefore, cannot keep up with the issues of the HOA. I am one of those rare renters who takes care of the home as if I owned it. I have many friends here and I'm able to participate in most every activity offered at the Clubhouse. The CC & R's and Bylaws, decisions by the Board, corruption, etc. does affect me and my lifestyle as I pay the owner's mortgage payment and Association dues. If dues go up, so does my rent. I attend most of the Board and Townhall Meetings to stay apprised of issues within the community and then email them to my owner. I also typed up a Homeowners Proxy, had my owners sign it and submitted it to the Association. While I do not vote, my owners trust my judgment and vote for my selections. This has worked very well for us. There has only been one meeting in the last 3 years where "renters" were not allowed to attend. With my legal background I have been able to advise and protect many Seniors that live here who were not aware of what the HOA can and can't do to them legally, i.e, threats, assessments, what they can and can't put in their front yards, recalls and the election processes. Therefore, in my personal opinion, Renters (in good standing) should be allowed to attend all meetings, providing they have a Proxy from their owner.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/18/2007 2:44 AM
In our condo, When the owner rents his unit he is assigning all his rights to the tenent, automatically. He retains his right to vote. You and owner have a contract that does not include Regime. You would need more that a proxy to vote and a proxy can not be assigned to a non-owner. However, if desired, you and owner could agree that you could become listed as a co-owner, and the owner could assign you to vote with POA (limited). If that happens, you would be also be burdened with all the requirements of an owner, and responsible. As a renter coming into a Association, you will have to draw a fine line about where your involvement ends. You can personally relate to your friends in any fashion you want, however you must not become involved in any business activities of the Regime. If you are allowed to attend meetings, which I support, your purpose there has to have a specific reason and I would suggest you clear that with the Board. Don't play both sides of the game, ignore some responsibilities because you are just a renter and demand action from the Board because you are a renter. From your post, I would welcome you to our Regime. My experience with a similar situation was productive for the Regime and for the renter. This may not always be the case.

NancyD1
(Florida)

Posts:447

09/18/2007 3:12 AM
Fl 720 does not address renters, but most provisions speak of "members" or "lot or parcel owners". FL 720: "Member" means a member of an association, and may include, but is not limited to, a parcel owner or an association representing parcel owners or a combination thereof, and includes any person or entity obligated by the governing documents to pay an assessment or amenity fee. In my community our HOA doc's speak of anyone who is not a member is not allowed at a BOD meeting. It is a private meeting with members only. Attorney's for the HOA may attend or others that are invited to attend by BOD members. Check your doc's or the owner members doc's. If they specify a "member" is allowed to attend meetings, then you can not attend. The doc's may go to a proxy by the owner, member. If the member signs a proxy for you, you may attend.

DJ1
(Ontario)

Posts:781

09/18/2007 4:24 AM
"a proxy cannot be assigned to a non-owner" Is this correct? The reason I ask is that stock proxies can be assigned to whoever you want to represent your interests, you do not have to be an owner. I thought I have read on the BB that even managers of HOAs have collected them in the past and used them. I have also seen comments about how difficult it is to get residents/members to attend or show interest so if a renter is doing that I would be impressed with the renter. They could also provide a different perspective that may help to address HOA issues that involve renters.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/18/2007 4:57 AM
My interpertation is: If the documents refer to and require a specific # of votes, 1 per unit, then an owner would have to assign his vote, and I would believe a POA would be necessary. If you live in a unit with multiple owners, only 1 person can vote and that person's name must be registered with regime. If the co-owners of that unit wanted to change designated voters, they could at any time by written notice. There is a difference between assigning a right to vote and a proxy. Proxys are used to assign your vote to another owner, not to just anyone. Proxies are usually assigned to the Board to obtain qurom. They can be used to assign vote for an election or to act on a specific item up before the Board, but again, you have to be a owner or a co-owner to vote. If a husband and wife own the property, they should have on file with the regime who can vote. That's proper according to our documents. In reality, no one would question who votes between husband and and wife, but they don't have two votes. Votes can be assigned to non-owners, but I believe a power of attorney is required, whereas, an owner can and does automatically, assign his rights to his quest, friends, renters or anyone else occupying his unit, but he can not assign his vote, which means, he is responsibile for the actions of the folks in his unit, renting or otherwise.

JoeW1
(New York)

Posts:728

09/18/2007 5:18 AM
NoreenC - Renters contribute to the stability of a community and their compliance to the by-laws and cc&r's are just as important as any other class of member. Typically renters are classified as associate members with the rights to the use of the common property. Only difference is they can not vote the same a member and Board member can unless of course your governing documents provide otherwise. In some situations, renters become buyers of homes and including them according to the provisions of the governing documents can benefit everyone. Since homeowner and condo associations have by nature apathetic owners as the norm, I would strongly suggest inclusion of renters on committees, or volunteer projects to the extent your community can permit.

NancyD1
(Florida)

Posts:447

09/18/2007 5:33 AM
Aproxy by FL 720 definition is: To be valid, a proxy must be dated, must state the date, time, and place of the meeting for which it was given, and must be signed by the authorized person who executed the proxy. A proxy is effective only for the specific meeting for which it was originally given, as the meeting may lawfully be adjourned and reconvened from time to time, and automatically expires 90 days after the date of the meeting for which it was originally given. A proxy is revocable at any time at the pleasure of the person who executes it. If the proxy form expressly so provides, any proxy holder may appoint, in writing, a substitute to act in his or her place. A renter can attend a BOD meeting or vote as long as he follows the recommended guideline for obtaining a proxy.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/18/2007 5:39 AM
JoeW, I understand perfectly what you are saying and agree with the common sense/mutual benefits approach. I would not include any renter being on a committe having to do with spending money, enforcement, policy rules, voting procedures, handling money, or making regulations. Is their advice important, it could well be and their cooperation is a plus especially if they have some degree of experience with associations. Another owner make get the idea she/he is not going to regulate him, as an owner, and could easily have a court position. It is not a case of come on down to Sunny Acres and become a member of the association by renting, and I know you didn't imply or mean that Joe, but I suspect owners that rent would love it, if it would make their renters happy at no cost to them.

NancyD1
(Florida)

Posts:447

09/18/2007 5:42 AM
Posted By DJ1 on 09/18/2007 4:24 AM "a proxy cannot be assigned to a non-owner" Is this correct? The reason I ask is that stock proxies can be assigned to whoever you want to represent your interests, you do not have to be an owner. I thought I have read on the BB that even managers of HOAs have collected them in the past and used them. I have also seen comments about how difficult it is to get residents/members to attend or show interest so if a renter is doing that I would be impressed with the renter. They could also provide a different perspective that may help to address HOA issues that involve renters. I agree, if a renter shows interest as Diane or Noreen do, they should be allowed to attend meetings. I want Diane and Noreen to rent a home in my HOA. I believe, that to act as an agent of the homeowner the proxy is needed by the homeowner. The renter in some cases will not have the interest in the financial welfare of a HOA as the owner would. Meaning that if the HOA decides to increase the yearly fees or a special assessment that may affect the renter's rent to the owner, he may not vote in the best interest of the owner.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/18/2007 5:54 AM
NancyD12, I believe your Fl 720 leaves a lot of wiggle room. Obviously by setting active dates you are restricting the proxy andd it specifies only for that meeting. By the owner being required to submit in writing an authorization for someone to use his vote suggests a POA. In fact a power of attorney could be worded that the right to use it can be broken anytime the owner wishes. So in a real sense this is not a Proxy but legal authorization. The last sentence, if taken from Fl720, "a renter can attend or vote is saying they would have to do one or the other." And our documents are riddled with this kind of stuff.

RebeccaM1
(Florida)

Posts:43

09/18/2007 6:33 AM
Florida HOA here: Our bylaws specifically state that proxies must be given to owners for a specific meeting of the membership or adjournment thereof. However, if we are talking about Board meetings at which an owner would be able to speak on a subject, but not vote, we also have provisions stating that an owner, or a representative, may speak on their behalf. I would interpret this to mean that a renter could speak on behalf of an owner at their discretion, but I would insist that they follow the same procedures in as far as signing up ahead of time and such. I agree with some Robert and Joe that including renters in meetings as a means to encourage and develop cooperation would be hugely beneficial, but I would stop short of encouraging participation in voting or committee involvement.

DonH
(Florida)

Posts:9

09/18/2007 7:04 AM
Posted By NoreenC on 09/17/2007 6:56 PM A member of our HOA board insists that renters do not have the right to attend monthly HOA meetings. I am also a new member of this board and believe that renters are entitled to all the rights and privileges of the homeowner with the exception that they may not vote. I'm playing catch up with FL-720 being a transplant from another state. Any help would be appreciated. True: Florida Statutes do not cover rules for renters. Therefore you must review your Bylaws, Declarations and other governing documents as to what degree renters or "residents" are allowed to participate in the workings of the HOA. Many HOA's allow a certain number of non-owners to sit on the board and even hold officer positions. A POA is not required in Florida to vote on HOA issues, etc. Only a proxy - but as was also brought up - a proxy expires 90 days after assigned, and is only good for the issue designated in that single proxy. Post dating proxies could solve the expiration issues, yet is not covered or discussed in Florida Statutes or most HOA documents as to their validity. Remember-all HOA issues and State Statutes are under civil law only. Our National and State governments that created these powerful HOAs did not put in place criminal law to watchdog the ruling "boards". So if the board is doing improper things or selfish controlling etc. you have to sue them to stop what they are doing. Then they get to use your own money from fees you have to pay by law to pay the HOA attorney to fight your lawsuit. As a Miami corporate attorney advised me about HOAs "Sell, get out and never buy in an HOA ruled community again."

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:4686

09/18/2007 7:50 AM
Non members may be assigned as proxies except: 1) when the bylaws do not allow it 2) when a state statute does not allow it (AZ has been referenced) 3) when under 18 years of age (my belief, no reference) DonH, the Miami attorney who advised you has the same credibility as any other homeowner; it depends on their personal bias

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:4686

09/18/2007 8:29 AM
Regarding renters, if a renter is appointed in writing by the owner as the representative of the owner, they may attend meetings and represent the owner with the same as rights as the owner. In other words, the renter would be the owner's attorney in fact.

DianeM1
(California)

Posts:9

09/18/2007 8:50 AM
In California we have the Davis-Stirling Act that is essentially "Laws" that supersede all CC & R's and Bylaws of a California based HOA's. The following is an extraction from the Davis-Stirling Act, and further defined by California Corporation Codes: Corporations. A corporation is defined in the law as a "legal person" and has all the rights of a natural person in an association. As such, a corporation may appoint a representative to attend meetings, vote and run for office. Proxies automatically expire after 11 months unless stated otherwise in the proxy. The maximum term of any proxy is 3 years from the date of execution. Corp. Code §7613(b) Yes - a POA would be better if I were voting for my Owners. POA's are harder to get owners to sign because of the extent of the power it gives the renter. I chose to leave voting to the Owner in the event the Board decides to disallow Proxies or POA's or disputes the vote, thus insuring their vote would be valid. More importantly, aside from my choice of candidate, it gives the Owner the opportunity to ultimately decide for themselves (after evaluating all of the candidates qualifications) the candidate they might prefer over my choice. Fortunately, my owners trust that I am working in their best interest as well as my own. My Proxy specifically stated "This Proxy shall remain valid until such time as the Owner submits a written request to revoke the Proxy." To date, no one has questioned this. Note: Stay on top of your Association and Board Members! In reading through our CC & R's and subseqent hand-outs, I noticed that at one meeting the Board was going to discuss doing away with Proxies. Quoting and striking out an Article 4.4.4.1 in the CC&R's re Proxies assigned to Renters, or non-members. It is unknown if this Amendment or strike out was ever approved, I don't know how it could have been, because Article 4.4.4.1 NEVER EXISTED. Therefore, it was not a legal Amendment. And I doubt that any of the homeowners noticed the unethical effort to strike it.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/18/2007 8:56 AM
Roger, If an owner assigned his Attorney to be his representative and does not sign a POA, do you think the lawyer would act and vote? He may do specific acts like collect rent or have oversight on the property, but I doubt very much if he would participate in a formal meeting, without POA. The only reason I can think of to allow renters to particapte in meetings, aside from those mentioned, would be if upon the creation of the HOA, there may be some legal reason for some to exempt themselves. That could be because maybe the developer first started a development as a non-association structure and at some date changed his mind. I would believe those in the initial effort could elect to stay as is or become a member. They may have a legal standing, I don't know. But all in all, I think it would be a huge mistake for any board to expend funds on the recommendation of a renter, or any other non-member.

DianeM1
(California)

Posts:9

09/18/2007 9:07 AM
Robert - Any Board that would "expend funds on the recommendation of a renter, or any non-member", without the overwhelming support of the community 'members' with a majority vote - should be fired.

BradP
(Kansas)

Posts:2491

09/18/2007 9:14 AM
I would disagree that renters have the right to attend board meetings. Unless your bylaws or CC&R's speak to it renters don't have the rights that owners do with regards to the association. With that said I do think renters should be encouraged to participate and allowed to attend meetings.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/18/2007 9:31 AM
DianeM1, I would have no trouble working with you to resolve this issue if we were in the same association. Our CC&R's state we shall have 65 votes, 65 members that can vote, they have to be assigned in writing by the co-ownersof that unit, if any. Single owners automatically have the right to vote. There is no mention of anyone else would be involved in the voting process, renter or otherwise. A POA would provide this from a legal standpoint. Therefore, renters don't enter into it at all. An owner could give his vote to Castro if he wanted by POA. Our documents say, I believe, that a qurom can be reached with a vote of 51% of the owners and their vote is an apportionment. I have no problem with sitting in a meeting with someone that has POA but I would not sit in a meeting if a renter was assigned a vote. I just would not attend the meeting. What's the difference? An outsider has no ax to grind other than the interest of the owner. A renter has the interest of the owner as well as the personal interest of a renter. An association is designed to govern the owners, not the renters. Whatever you require of an owner is automatically assumed by the renter and the owner is the one responsible for any actions of that renter. Advice from a renter; suggestions from a renter, fine, as long as those suggestions are considered to be coming from the owner. And when you look further, a renter is paying rent to the owner by some sort of lease or contract, I bet there is nothing in that contract that gives the renter the right to vote...period. So unless there is some kind of stipulation to the effect that the association would allow the owner to vote, they can't do it, and if they do, it is illegal because the lease can not be between the owner, the association and the renter, the lease is between the owner and the renter.

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:4686

09/18/2007 9:38 AM
Robert and Diane, Apparently you are not aware that many Boards consist of non-owners (Developer controlled). Such Boards control and expend funds all the time. Regarding renters, they are not attending as renters but as an attorney in fact representing the owner. Owners, who are represented by their authorized representative, have the same rights as other owners.

DianeM1
(California)

Posts:9

09/18/2007 10:06 AM
Roger - Thank you. I understood your last message several messages back. You are absolutely right and it may vary from state to state. As I stated before and will again, I don't vote, my Owners do. I attend the meetings, I take notes, I ask questions that pertain to every homeowner and share them and my opinions and observations with my Owner. If Robert doesn't want to attend a meeting because a Renter is representing an Owner, or may have the privilege of voting for his Owner, then perhaps Robert isn't really interested in his HOA, but moreso, who is attending the meetings. If he refuses to attend with a Renter he is only hurting himself by missing out on the discussions and changes taking place during the meeting. He will then be uninformed. An interested Renter can contribute a great deal to an HOA. Renters "live" in the home, IN the community, and have the same rights to the quality of life as if they were the Owner. There will always be rogue Renters and Owners with little or no interest in the daily operations of their HOA, or the condition of their rental home...UNTIL the dues are raised, they get a complaint from the HOA about their renters conduct, dog barking, an assessment for whatever the HOA decides to assess. Then they squawk and complain to the HOA for not being informed. Who's to blame for the uninformed homeowner?

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/18/2007 10:18 AM
Roger, Never been involved in a condo Developer controlled board. But I do have a son that is still waiting for the developer to turn property to homeowners. I thought during this phase the developer had voting control and if their was any meeting held, there could be no action taken on a vote of the owners. They can sit around the table and posture but push comes to shove, until the project is turned over the owners have no real power. At that time they have the power to elect their board. His particular condo (duplexes) call for all lots to be sold. Bad news to me. But he is happy, he lives and works in Hong Kong. What is your take on the renters paying the owners money and signing a lease which I bet do not allow for renter to speak for owner? Appears one lease or the agreement would be in violation if they did not include the leases or assignment. Our documents do not allow the Regime to enter into rental contracts.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/18/2007 10:30 AM
Diane, You are taking too big a leap to go from my statement about refusing to vote at an owners meeting because a renter is allowed to vote and concluding, therefore, I have no interest in the community and will forever be uninformed. Bull. I feel I am justified in not allowing renters to vote for the reasons I have stated throughout this thread. In my condo, we do not allow renters to vote. Only owners and no provisions are written to do other wise. I also stated that my association with long term renters we have had has been positive and we got along fine. Now, Diane, if you lived in an associations that allows rentals on an unlimited bases, would you feel that way? Most of our rentals are for a week, should those folks have the right to vote? How about a week-end and we are having a Board meeting, do they have the righjt to vote?

NancyD1
(Florida)

Posts:447

09/18/2007 10:55 AM
Posted By RobertR1 on 09/18/2007 5:54 AM NancyD12, I believe your Fl 720 leaves a lot of wiggle room. Obviously by setting active dates you are restricting the proxy andd it specifies only for that meeting. By the owner being required to submit in writing an authorization for someone to use his vote suggests a POA. In fact a power of attorney could be worded that the right to use it can be broken anytime the owner wishes. So in a real sense this is not a Proxy but legal authorization. The last sentence, if taken from Fl720, "a renter can attend or vote is saying they would have to do one or the other." And our documents are riddled with this kind of stuff. The Fl statute does not specify a POA. The member or lot owner has to sign over the proxy to a renter. Even though this is common sense to you and I it was not spelled out when it came down to the actual legislative decision. Fl 720 is riddled with a lot of quirky language. Intention and assumption are not supposed to be the HOA's business to decipher, but we have to when you see a law as it is written as this. We look at the language such as "a member can speak for 3 minutes on any item on the agenda" (this was another post on this forum),can the member speak on all items, for 3 minutes each, or on one item for 3 minutes. Our BOD deciphered this to mean one item for 3 minutes. A HO called the BOD on this and our attorney was consulted to get a written ruling. He agreed with the BOD. Any item not items. If the states would only allow input from the Bod's and the communities instead of being political we would not have this problem. I was involved in a project with FL a few years ago when a few changes were made to FL 720. In the changes we suggested the language was clear and concise even though most of us were attorney's. The way I see it, if all was clear and concise someone would be out of a job.

RobertR1
(South Carolina)

Posts:5164

09/18/2007 12:49 PM
NancyD12, I agree, especially "If the states would only allow, etc, etc. I imagine you have read my post about how I tried to get the SC States Attorney General to address the question; "Under State Law is it legal to have a closed Regular Meeting in Condo and HOA?" Believe me, that was a trip and finally the AG office made a statement to me that I would have to hire an attorney. They refused to give me this answer in writing and said there was nothing more they could do for me, and not to contact the office about this any more. I am sure they have a reason for not answering but they wouldn't tell me what is was. However, I am sure their are lots of folks that can see the slipshod way the Feds and the States and on down have handled the legislative part of this explosive demand for HOA Housing. They must realize what is coming down the road and they are going to be overwhelmed with all these voters that are going to be living in HOA's. They did not set the framework for this type of demographic changes. Right now, the Developers, the lawyers, the brokers, the mortgage companies, the banks and the cities and towns, along with some states that benefit from all these new folks paying taxes. It is a mess now and it is going to get worse, but, it's coming down the road, and fast.

RogerB
(Colorado)

Posts:4686

09/18/2007 1:41 PM
Posted By RobertR1 on 09/18/2007 12:49 PM ...They refused to give me this answer in writing and said there was nothing more they could do for me, and not to contact the office about this any more. I am sure they have a reason for not answering but they wouldn't tell me what is was. .... Robert, it is obvious that the answer is CYA. No government agency nor posters on this Board should ever give an answer, verbally or in writting, which could be constured as a legal opinion. As it states at the bottom of this page "for informational purposes only, are not legal or professional advice".

JohnM3
(Florida)

Posts:288

09/20/2007 8:12 AM
Dear Nancy: Stay in California they need people who split hairs. Leave the rest of us alone to fight our own battles. We have been operating quite well for 20 years without spending a mountain of money and in all those years we have only had 2 instances where we could not come to a fair and reasonable solutuion without involving LAWYERS> THEY ARE A PLAGUE ON THIS GREAT COUNTRY OF OURS. There are more lawyers in Florida alone than all of China , Japan, and the rest of the ASAIAN Nations combined. And they all are looking to sue someone. Example a lawyer becomes the Lt Gov of a southern state he has a run in with his hoa he wants to paint his home some wacky color in violation of the hoa docs. So instead of compling no he deguts all HOAs in Florida that no longer have half the power to keep there hoas looking livable. ( 14 Colors allowed in his hoa ) Yea thats exactly what we need more rigid rules by lawyers. Did you ever stop to think that maybe what they were trying to do was for the benefit of the whole HOA. No your intention obviously is to go to meetings find something wrong and go hire a lawyer and sue yourself. Brilliant move. Remember your BOD serves as human beings subject to making mistakes and trying to do right in a bad situation. So instead of trying to find right try helping for a change. You will be amazed at how hard it is to get little things done because of the stupid govt rules. By the way expert HOAs are created by the cities not the state or the federal govt get your facts straight.

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