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Subject: How many times
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LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:75


10/28/2019 8:38 PM  
How many time can an association set up a special meeting to get rid of president before it is considered harassment toward the president. The first meeting the president had many votes to prove most of the association wants the president. was not even a close vote.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3328


10/28/2019 9:22 PM  
That's going to depend on your Bylaws and state law. In Florida, for instance, your question wouldn't even make any sense because the stautes literally lay out the specific procedure to be followed in order for the homeowners to recall a board member. Doing it at a members meeting requires that meeting to be called either by board members or 10% of the owners. How to do that is a separate question that also depends on your own Bylaws and state law.

I don't think a charge of "harrassment" is likely to stick, regardless of what state you're in. If the meeting is called and noticed properly then you have to have the meeting regardless of what you think anyone else's motivation is.

What's more likely to happen is if there are repetitive meetings all for the same issue over and over again, eventually you won't even be able to have a meeting when people stop showing up and there's no quorum.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8827


10/29/2019 9:24 AM  
Posted By GenoS on 10/28/2019 9:22 PM
That's going to depend on your Bylaws and state law. In Florida, for instance, your question wouldn't even make any sense because the stautes literally lay out the specific procedure to be followed in order for the homeowners to recall a board member. Doing it at a members meeting requires that meeting to be called either by board members or 10% of the owners. How to do that is a separate question that also depends on your own Bylaws and state law.

I don't think a charge of "harrassment" is likely to stick, regardless of what state you're in. If the meeting is called and noticed properly then you have to have the meeting regardless of what you think anyone else's motivation is.

What's more likely to happen is if there are repetitive meetings all for the same issue over and over again, eventually you won't even be able to have a meeting when people stop showing up and there's no quorum.




I agree.
AugustinD


Posts:1990


10/29/2019 11:20 AM  
Are you aware that there is a difference between officers (President, VP, Treasurer, Secretary) and directors? The HOA membership typically elects the directors, but then the directors select the officers.

All the Bylaws I have seen have said the HOA President is normally remov-able only by a vote of the directors.

Do your Bylaws permit the membership to remove the President? If you can quote verbatim what your HOA's Bylaws say on this subject, then this would be helpful.

Do the people calling for the special meeting want to remove this person as the President, a Director, or both?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1373


10/29/2019 11:49 AM  
Concur with Augustin.

What the OP described us s Director recall ... as long as the process is followed, one might assume it could occur many times.

Harassment? No, I don’t think so.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2749


10/29/2019 3:02 PM  
All good advice.

It seems someone (or several someones) have a burr up their behind regarding the president and are pushing for a meeting, and another and another and so on. If the first vote didn't convince them they're in the minority and probably won't win the second or third time around, it might be a good idea to bring in a mediator and sit these folks down to see what the problem really is.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3865


10/29/2019 3:21 PM  
Just wondering Lisa:

How many houses?

In your bylaws - How many signatures needed on a petition to call a Special Meeting to remove someone from office?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6703


10/29/2019 3:39 PM  
Along with the distinction Augustine makes, I wonder if the OP's owners are even following the correct procedure for a recall of a director (assuming that's what it really is). Their HOA's bylaws probably state how it must be done. But CT might have its own statutes.

In CA, btw, I believe there are limits on how many recall attempts of the same director(s) may be done in a year. Don't have the citation handy.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8711


10/29/2019 4:24 PM  
Having been a President there is usually 2 reasons you stay. 1. You are passionate about what you do and are trying to do the best for your community. 2. No one else wants the job. So the people trying to vote the President out... Do they have someone who wants to do the job and passionate to do it?

It is one thing to want someone to step down. It's another to get someone to fill those shoes. Is it really worth getting rid of someone who wants to be there? Maybe you all need to take a different approach and LEARN what is needed to make things better.

Former HOA President
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:75


10/29/2019 7:55 PM  
Yes he is the only one who wants to be on the board.. And no they dont have a plan. They were asked by many people what is your plan. And he has done many good things for our association. All free. he just did an audit to get back tax money from the sate. YEs he got the state to give us money back. he got a neighbor to chip in for a fence. he got another neighbor to cut down many trees and pay for it that were heading towards our condos.

The issue is there is a disgruntaled unit owner who has fines he has to pay for a renter he had.He never got the fine money from the renter and they have left the condos. And he feels its all this persons fault which it isnt. So he gets the association going and a few people who dislike him as a person are coming after him. he got many votes to stay on as a director from the special meeting they wanted.. at the end of the meeting one of them goes how long before we can do another meeting.

we have 40 units

his focus is the good of our association in many ways. he wont walk off. Then our association will fail. When he came on we had 3000.00 in reseves. this year four years later we will have close to 80,000....

All the rules had to be put down on paper. It was done the legal way. notice and comment then voting. No one commented on the change of rules in 2.5 years while they were being voted on. But becasue someone had a renter and this renter was found to not follow rules.. the owner got fined for it. so now it is the rules that are the issue.. And that leads to him (director) being the problem. Which he's not.

The owner is going around saying to unit owners and renters. I heard he was harrassing you. a story would be told and they would say no that did not happen. like a bait and set up.

And yes to be a director on a board, it is a thank less job.

Does anyone in Connecticut know if there is a statute that limits the amount of times a meeting can be held by unit owners to get rid of the same director every time. This is the important question to get answered here. Does anyone know the answer????????????????????
AugustinD


Posts:1990


10/29/2019 8:11 PM  
Lisa, first, can you quote verbatim what your Bylaws say about removing a director?

Second, a quick check of condo statutes in Connecticut so far indicates to me that the statutes leave details of removing a director up to each condo's Bylaws. See

https://www.hopb.co/connecticut

https://www.cga.ct.gov/current/pub/chap_825.htm

https://jud.ct.gov/lawlib/unitownershipact.pdf

Third, if the required annual election is not far off, this might argue for the condo's board refusing to run a Special Meeting?

Fourth, if he is the only one willing to serve, then he may very well be on solid legal ground in refusing to run a special meeting where he is removed. This is because once he is removed, the condo has a fair likelihood of having to go through the receivership process. This fellow, who is serving as the sole board member, could be said to be remiss in stepping down.

Fifth, why isn't this director hiring an attorney to help him with the decision-making here? Whence he should publish a dry memo to the membership that the cost of the Special Meetings to remove him is $X; a HOA attorney said xyz about this; and this person trying to remove him is costing the condo a fortune.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3865


10/29/2019 9:03 PM  
A suggestion:

Adopt a rule (or bylaw) that a board member cannot be subject to removal less than 12 months after an action to remove that board member was voted on and failed.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16542


10/30/2019 3:15 AM  
Posted By NpS on 10/29/2019 9:03 PM
A suggestion:

Adopt a rule (or bylaw) that a board member cannot be subject to removal less than 12 months after an action to remove that board member was voted on and failed.





I think that statute may override such a rule.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3865


10/30/2019 8:55 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 10/30/2019 3:15 AM
Posted By NpS on 10/29/2019 9:03 PM
A suggestion:

Adopt a rule (or bylaw) that a board member cannot be subject to removal less than 12 months after an action to remove that board member was voted on and failed.


I think that statute may override such a rule.


Here's the relevant section of the statute:

5303(F) REMOVAL OF [BOARD] MEMBERS.-- Notwithstanding any provision of the declaration or bylaws to the contrary, the unit owners, by a two-thirds vote of all persons present and entitled to vote at any meeting of the unit owners at which a quorum is present, may remove any member of the executive board with or without cause, other than a member appointed by the declarant.

HOWEVER, this provision might not be applicable to the OP's Association if it was formed prior to 1996 when the Statute was adopted. There is also a long list of Section-by-Section exceptions on applicability in section 5102 that could apply to the OP's Association.

Even if that particular Section of the Statute does apply to the OP's Association, I would not be afraid to amend the Bylaws under:

5306. Bylaws (A) MANDATORY PROVISIONS.-- The bylaws of the association shall provide for all of the following: … (3) The qualifications, powers and duties, terms of office and manner of electing and removing executive board members and officers and filling vacancies.

Worst case outcome would be that a court would invalidate the amendment. But that would take a lawsuit. The unique issue raised here is that someone seems to be abusing the privilege of forcing a removal vote again and again. I believe that a judge would probably be sympathetic to the excess burden that the entire HOA is dealing with, and could possible interpret the Statute in the Association's favor.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
AugustinD


Posts:1990


10/30/2019 9:03 AM  
Posted By NpS on 10/30/2019 8:55 AM
Here's the relevant section of the statute:

5303(F) REMOVAL OF [BOARD] MEMBERS.-- Notwithstanding any provision of the declaration or bylaws to the contrary, the unit owners, by a two-thirds vote of all persons present and entitled to vote at any meeting of the unit owners at which a quorum is present, may remove any member of the executive board with or without cause, other than a member appointed by the declarant.

HOWEVER, this provision might not be applicable to the OP's Association if it was formed prior to 1996 when the Statute was adopted. There is also a long list of Section-by-Section exceptions on applicability in section 5102 that could apply to the OP's Association.


Section 5303(F) above is a Pennsylvania statute. The OP appears to be in Connecticut.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3865


10/30/2019 9:25 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 10/30/2019 9:03 AM
Posted By NpS on 10/30/2019 8:55 AM
Here's the relevant section of the statute:

5303(F) REMOVAL OF [BOARD] MEMBERS.-- Notwithstanding any provision of the declaration or bylaws to the contrary, the unit owners, by a two-thirds vote of all persons present and entitled to vote at any meeting of the unit owners at which a quorum is present, may remove any member of the executive board with or without cause, other than a member appointed by the declarant.

HOWEVER, this provision might not be applicable to the OP's Association if it was formed prior to 1996 when the Statute was adopted. There is also a long list of Section-by-Section exceptions on applicability in section 5102 that could apply to the OP's Association.


Section 5303(F) above is a Pennsylvania statute. The OP appears to be in Connecticut.


Oops. My bad.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3865


10/30/2019 10:34 AM  
Here's the relevant section of the CT statute.

Sec. 47-261d. Removal of officers and directors. (a) Notwithstanding any provision of the declaration or bylaws to the contrary, unit owners present in person or by proxy at any meeting of the unit owners at which a quorum is present, or voting by ballot pursuant to subsection (d) of section 47-252, may remove any member of the executive board or any officer elected by the unit owners, with or without cause, if the number of votes cast in favor of removal exceeds the number of votes cast in opposition to removal ...

(b) At any meeting at which a vote to remove a member of the executive board or an officer is to be taken, the member or officer being considered for removal must have a reasonable opportunity to speak before the vote is taken ...

Even under the CT statute, I think that the Bylaws could be amended. IMO, the worst case outcome would be that a court would invalidate the amendment. But that would take a lawsuit. The unique issue raised here is that someone seems to be abusing the privilege of forcing a removal vote again and again. I believe that a judge would probably be sympathetic to the excess burden that the entire HOA is dealing with, and could possible interpret the Statute in the Association's favor.

The OP should also look at:

Sec. 47-250. Meetings. Rules. (a) The following requirements apply to unit owner meetings: ... (2) An association shall hold a special meeting of unit owners if its president, a majority of the executive board, or unit owners having at least twenty per cent, or any lower percentage specified in the bylaws, of the votes in the association request that the secretary call the meeting.

It does seem strange to me that, if it takes 20% of the owners signatures to call a Special Meeting for removal, why does this keep happening? OP should definitely look into modifying these requirements as a possible solution.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3328


10/30/2019 1:12 PM  
Posted By NpS on 10/30/2019 10:34 AM
It does seem strange to me that, if it takes 20% of the owners signatures to call a Special Meeting for removal, why does this keep happening? OP should definitely look into modifying these requirements as a possible solution.

As others have said, I also question whether the OP's association is following proper procedure for anything, both the recall voting AND calling for, giving notice, and conducting the meetings.

LisaD6, these meetings are Special Members Meetings, yes? How many owners typically show up at these things? What is your quorum requirement and are at least that number showing up? Who is calling the meetings? Assuming it's not the president, is it a majority of the Executive Board? Or is it (at least) 8 owners? (20% of 40 owners). One malcontent shouldn't be allowed to call for a Special Meeting all by himself. He'd need 7 others to agree to it in order to have 20%.

The board still has a duty to collect that fine. What does everyone think is going to happen to the unpaid fine if the president is replaced? How about suspending the guy's voting rights for being delinquent in paying the fine? Can you do that in CT? Do your governing documents allow for that?
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8827


10/31/2019 10:05 AM  
Lisa

With requiring 20% of owners to call a Special Meeting and with the results the same, why does this keep happening?
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:75


11/02/2019 5:52 PM  
YEs CT
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:75


11/02/2019 5:53 PM  
Stautes overide rules and bylaws in CT most of the time
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:75


11/02/2019 5:53 PM  
Stautes overide rules and bylaws in CT most of the time
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:75


11/02/2019 5:56 PM  
It may keep happening. only happened once so far. but comments were made of doing it again. and management said she will charge if they keep doing it in the future. And she the manager was going to find out how many times can they actually do this before it makes no sense to do it. from the lawyer. just wonderring if anyone has been through this..
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:75


11/02/2019 6:00 PM  
There are the same amount of people who sign for 20% to have meeting and who vote against the vote for keeping the president. many votes to keep the president vs. not keep but all they need is 20% which is in the declaration and the statutes.
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:75


11/02/2019 6:01 PM  
What does OP mean please. I cant find on google. ty
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:196


11/03/2019 1:41 AM  
OP=Original Poster
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1373


11/03/2019 4:22 AM  
This thread could go on like the revote? 🙂

Sounds like the system is working - apparently, the members wish to keep the board member.

The 20% are wasting ... time, effort.

Perhaps the 20% feels they will wear everyone down?
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:508


11/03/2019 5:37 AM  
Posted By LisaD6 on 11/02/2019 6:00 PM
There are the same amount of people who sign for 20% to have meeting and who vote against the vote for keeping the president. many votes to keep the president vs. not keep but all they need is 20% which is in the declaration and the statutes.




I think someone already mentioned this, but it's time for the president to use his bully pulpit and run an information campaign on how much money is being wasted by the 20%. This is real money being taken out of homeowners' real pockets, and it hurts everyone. You don't need to change too many minds to drop below the 20% threshold.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3328


11/03/2019 11:14 AM  
The same 20% of owners calls for a special members meeting. The same people show up and they also constitute a quorum for the meeting.

So the questions remain: what do the CT statutes say on the matter of removing directors? What to the association's governing documents (like the Bylaws) say about removing directors?

Because 20% of the owners should not be enough to get anyone kicked off the board. I mean I guess it's possible, but that's an absurdly low threshold in my opinion. In a 40-member association that gives any group of 8 homeowners the ability to thwart what the majority want. Any 8, not just the current 8 causing problems. Not a great situation.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6703


11/03/2019 6:26 PM  
Agree with Geno that 20% probably is enough to call a meeting, but not nearly enough to actually recall a director.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8827


11/04/2019 9:02 AM  
Posted By LisaD6 on 11/02/2019 5:56 PM
It may keep happening. only happened once so far. but comments were made of doing it again. and management said she will charge if they keep doing it in the future. And she the manager was going to find out how many times can they actually do this before it makes no sense to do it. from the lawyer. just wonderring if anyone has been through this..




Lisa

How can a manager (I assume a Property Manager) charge for a Member Called Special Meeting? The meber run it, not her.

Remember the PM works for the BOD. They can hire or fire her.

You say a Special Meeting was called once and failed and you are worried about a 2nd meeting. Why?

LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:75


11/12/2019 7:55 PM  
First meeting he did for free. If they keep redoing he can charge for meeting because it is his time and it is an extra meeting outside of the contract. So yes he can charge for the meeting. If we have to monthly meeting sin a month we get charged for the second meeting. contract says one monthly meeting a month. thats how manager makes his money. I have no problem with it. As long as we get one monthly meeting.. for 12 months. me not doing two in a month for a monthly meeting. My free time is precious to me too.
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