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Subject: HOA & Country Club "Social Dues"
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DominickP
(Virginia)

Posts:8


10/21/2019 5:18 AM  
I live in Dominion Valley in Haymarket VA. Our community consists of a HOA and a Country Club Social Dues. Another words, we pay for our HOA, which I have no problem with, but we also pay "Social Dues" to the Country Club. These are separate payments. The Social Dues are $77 a month, and we get absolutely nothing for this fee, other than we can gain access to the country club restaurant and pay high prices for horrible food.

Recently Toll Brother's (owners of DVCC) sold the Country Club part to a new place, Club Corp.

My question is, are we still obligated to pay the new company the $77 a month, since they weren't the original company? Hoping we can get out of it.
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1466


10/21/2019 5:32 AM  
Your covenants, CCRs, bylaws, articles of incorporation or other governing documents should explain what you obligations are legally. Unless they specifically mention Toll Brothers, it is likely that the same payments are due. If you want to see if there is any loophole or way out of this, you might want to have a lawyer review the docs looking for same.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
ND
(PA)

Posts:366


10/21/2019 8:37 AM  
ClubCorp . . . gulp! Wish you guys the best.

Doug explained where to find what you are obligated to pay. It's very likely that by moving into what appears to be a golf course/club community, you agreed (by way of purchasing your home) to forever be obligated to pay an HOA assessment and separate country club assessment/dues. So more likely than not, yes you are still obligated to pay even though ownership has changed.

I'd also venture to say that your $77/month gets you much more than access to the restaurant. I looked up your CC and there appear to be a host of amenities that your dues/assessment likely in-part support, so you probably have access to those or at least usage/access at a discounted member rate. Even if you choose not to utilize anything other than the restaurant, you are still in-part funding operation and maintenance of it all . . . again, something which you knew (or should have known) when purchasing the home.

But I could be wrong too and maybe the assessment/dues are optional . . . something you'll have to read in your documents to confirm.
DominickP
(Virginia)

Posts:8


10/21/2019 9:04 AM  
Posted By ND on 10/21/2019 8:37 AM
ClubCorp . . . gulp! Wish you guys the best.

Doug explained where to find what you are obligated to pay. It's very likely that by moving into what appears to be a golf course/club community, you agreed (by way of purchasing your home) to forever be obligated to pay an HOA assessment and separate country club assessment/dues. So more likely than not, yes you are still obligated to pay even though ownership has changed.

I'd also venture to say that your $77/month gets you much more than access to the restaurant. I looked up your CC and there appear to be a host of amenities that your dues/assessment likely in-part support, so you probably have access to those or at least usage/access at a discounted member rate. Even if you choose not to utilize anything other than the restaurant, you are still in-part funding operation and maintenance of it all . . . again, something which you knew (or should have known) when purchasing the home.

But I could be wrong too and maybe the assessment/dues are optional . . . something you'll have to read in your documents to confirm.




Sadly, no. The $77 simply gets you access to the restaurant, which sucks by the way. Then once you are in the restaurant you have to pay their high prices for crappy food. They do have one pool, but the HOA has 5 other's, so there really is no to use the club pool either. The $77 is simply a subsidy to subsidize the golf course. Nothing more, nothing less. Had I not bought the house during the downturn, I wouldn't have bought here for sure. But the deal was so good, I had no choice. 3067 days to go, then i will say goodbye to HOAs/Club fees forever.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2749


10/21/2019 9:31 AM  
I concur with what the others have said, but please remember not to use actual names of people, communities, etc. - that's a posting no-no
DominickP
(Virginia)

Posts:8


10/21/2019 9:38 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 10/21/2019 9:31 AM
I concur with what the others have said, but please remember not to use actual names of people, communities, etc. - that's a posting no-no




Just curious, but why???
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8827


10/21/2019 9:40 AM  
Dom

This is a very common arrangement and I have never seen it change when ownership changes. I checked your membership entitles you to:

All Dining & Social Events
Pools Facilities
Tennis Courts
Indoor Basketball Court

Not that you want them, but you get them.
DominickP
(Virginia)

Posts:8


10/21/2019 9:43 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 10/21/2019 9:40 AM
Dom

This is a very common arrangement and I have never seen it change when ownership changes. I checked your membership entitles you to:

All Dining & Social Events
Pools Facilities
Tennis Courts
Indoor Basketball Court

Not that you want them, but you get them.




Only one pool, (HOA has 5 others, so no need) and the "social events" are all charged extra events, so they aren't really an entitlement. Tennis Courts and basketball are all and additional charge, and furthermore are of no use to most people.

It would be soooo great if we could find a loophole. Once the subsidy was gone, the club would either fold or make prices more affordable. As it is now, they have a guaranteed stream of income that they shouldn't have.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2749


10/21/2019 9:49 AM  
Posted By DominickP on 10/21/2019 9:38 AM
Posted By SheliaH on 10/21/2019 9:31 AM
I concur with what the others have said, but please remember not to use actual names of people, communities, etc. - that's a posting no-no




Just curious, but why???




Since you didn't read the posting rules, I refer you to #3:


3. No Mention of Community/Company/Person Names: In order to fairly enforce (2) and prevent liability, we do not allow the mentioning of any community name, company name or product. Please also do not post the full name of any person.

YOU may not care about liability, but the folks who provide the resources making this website possible do - so be a dear and cooperate.
ND
(PA)

Posts:366


10/21/2019 9:57 AM  
Do a search on this site for posts on golf course communities. There has been over the years quite a bit of discussion.

I'd be careful what you wish for . . . having your golf club fail is more than likely not in your best interest as I'm sure that the presence of the course adds much to the appeal and resale value of your community and home.

It is also in the best interest of ClubCorp to try and run the course/club in a manner that gets your subsidy to be as low as possible since that makes the association more desirable and means the course is generating more revenue themselves; however, it could be a lengthy process to get subsidy lower.

And their guaranteed stream of income is something they should certainly have. It's likely spelled out in your documents as something that all owners will pay as well as documented in years-worth of budgets . . . you could review those to see how that subsidy has increased or decreased over the years to somewhat gauge successful operation (or lack thereof) of the club/course.
DominickP
(Virginia)

Posts:8


10/21/2019 9:58 AM  
Posted By SheliaH on 10/21/2019 9:49 AM
Posted By DominickP on 10/21/2019 9:38 AM
Posted By SheliaH on 10/21/2019 9:31 AM
I concur with what the others have said, but please remember not to use actual names of people, communities, etc. - that's a posting no-no




Just curious, but why???




Since you didn't read the posting rules, I refer you to #3:


3. No Mention of Community/Company/Person Names: In order to fairly enforce (2) and prevent liability, we do not allow the mentioning of any community name, company name or product. Please also do not post the full name of any person.

YOU may not care about liability, but the folks who provide the resources making this website possible do - so be a dear and cooperate.




Thanks Sheila! This just seems like a stupid rule though, because how many times do people have to answer the same questions because they don't know that their community was already being referenced? First thing I did when finding this forum was search DVCC, Dominion Valley Country Club and Club Corp. Sorry for violating the rules. Makes me wonder if there is another board out there that doesn't have these limitations?
DominickP
(Virginia)

Posts:8


10/21/2019 10:00 AM  
Posted By ND on 10/21/2019 9:57 AM
Do a search on this site for posts on golf course communities. There has been over the years quite a bit of discussion.

I'd be careful what you wish for . . . having your golf club fail is more than likely not in your best interest as I'm sure that the presence of the course adds much to the appeal and resale value of your community and home.

It is also in the best interest of ClubCorp to try and run the course/club in a manner that gets your subsidy to be as low as possible since that makes the association more desirable and means the course is generating more revenue themselves; however, it could be a lengthy process to get subsidy lower.

And their guaranteed stream of income is something they should certainly have. It's likely spelled out in your documents as something that all owners will pay as well as documented in years-worth of budgets . . . you could review those to see how that subsidy has increased or decreased over the years to somewhat gauge successful operation (or lack thereof) of the club/course.




Oh trust me, it wouldn't bother me if the whole thing went belly up tomorrow. To get rid of that #888forabsolutelynothing would be awesome. No, I have to disagree, they shouldn't have that guaranteed stream of income. Again, live and learn. I won't let it happen to me again.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3865


10/21/2019 12:11 PM  
Posted By ND on 10/21/2019 9:57 AM
It is also in the best interest of ClubCorp to try and run the course/club in a manner that gets your subsidy to be as low as possible since that makes the association more desirable and means the course is generating more revenue themselves; however, it could be a lengthy process to get subsidy lower.


Doubt it.

1. Most clubs plan for some mix of private and public use. If they're looking to increase outside users, just as likely that they will try to keep public fees low.

2. Change of ownership is usually followed by fee increases to those who are locked in.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3395


10/22/2019 6:42 PM  
The Social Dues are $77 a month, and we get absolutely nothing for this fee.......



your membership entitles you to:

All Dining & Social Events
Pools Facilities
Tennis Courts
Indoor Basketball Court


Let me know if you figure it out. Maybe I can pay my town real estate taxes based upon only the roads I drive on and the services I use.
DominickP
(Virginia)

Posts:8


10/23/2019 3:35 AM  
Posted By SteveM9 on 10/22/2019 6:42 PM
The Social Dues are $77 a month, and we get absolutely nothing for this fee.......



your membership entitles you to:

All Dining & Social Events
Pools Facilities
Tennis Courts
Indoor Basketball Court


Let me know if you figure it out. Maybe I can pay my town real estate taxes based upon only the roads I drive on and the services I use.




Apparently you didn't read my post above. We get none of that. We get access to it, but then everything is a charge. Access is NOTHING.
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3395


10/23/2019 6:40 AM  

Apparently you didn't read my post above. We get none of that. We get access to it, but then everything is a charge. Access is NOTHING.


I did read it. You bought a place with club dues. Its required as part of ownership in your HOA. Doesn't matter if you dont use it, or dont like it.

Your only choice to remove the dues....... is to move.
DominickP
(Virginia)

Posts:8


10/23/2019 6:44 AM  
Posted By SteveM9 on 10/23/2019 6:40 AM

Apparently you didn't read my post above. We get none of that. We get access to it, but then everything is a charge. Access is NOTHING.


I did read it. You bought a place with club dues. Its required as part of ownership in your HOA. Doesn't matter if you dont use it, or dont like it.

Your only choice to remove the dues....... is to move.




Again, you didn't read. HOA and Club are separate.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3865


10/23/2019 9:24 AM  
Posted By DominickP on 10/23/2019 6:44 AM
Posted By SteveM9 on 10/23/2019 6:40 AM

Apparently you didn't read my post above. We get none of that. We get access to it, but then everything is a charge. Access is NOTHING.


I did read it. You bought a place with club dues. Its required as part of ownership in your HOA. Doesn't matter if you dont use it, or dont like it.

Your only choice to remove the dues....... is to move.


Again, you didn't read. HOA and Club are separate.



Some people are willing to pay a premium to belong to an exclusive club, even though they have to pay when they use the club's services. Apparently, you are not that kind of person. As Steve says, if it's not your type of arrangement, then your only way out of the social fees is to move. As you said, you bought the house at a bargain - Maybe, it wasn't such a bargain - But why didn't you know all that before you bought?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3395


10/23/2019 5:41 PM  

Again, you didn't read. HOA and Club are separate.


I dont see why it would matter. HOA's enter contracts with companies all the time such as water, electricity, cable, etc. They are seperate too.

Why dont you get a copy of the contract with the HOA and the club. See how long its for, say 99 years, increases in dues, cancellation clause, etc.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1373


11/05/2019 4:57 PM  
So, Dominick,

You assess that your property value is not enhanced by being located with the GC?

And, btw, you using the term “stupid” to describe a long standing, useful and likely legally advised, restriction of this website is rather odd, and over-reaching, don’t you think?
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