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Subject: What recourse does a member have with an HOA board member for emailing the Association about a member not paying dues?
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StevenM8
(Minnesota)

Posts:18


09/25/2019 5:46 PM  
Not sure where to start with this.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:121


09/25/2019 6:18 PM  
Not voting for them at the next election. Pretty much, that's it.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16481


09/25/2019 11:26 PM  
There have been discussions about this in the past. Unfortunately, some Associations and/or Boards prefer public shaming to see if this can get the individuals to pay. From the past discussions, there seems to be nothing (other then ethical behavior on part of the board) to prevent such actions.

Personally, having served as Treasurer, I hated having to send out the late notices to people.
It was always to the same people. Therefore I understand the desire to use public shaming.
However, I strongly disagree with it.
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:319


09/26/2019 4:18 AM  
It depends on the facts of what happened.

The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act and state debt collection laws might be implicated but those usually do not cover the HOA itself and sometimes do not cover related parties.

If the emailed information was false and caused economic harm then there might be a claim for defamation.

More details, please.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8601


09/26/2019 4:52 AM  
Need more details on this. A board member emailed who about not paying dues? Was there a reason for dues not being paid? Were the dues paid and misreported?

It's not exactly clear if this is a public shaming tactic as some HOA's do. (I also disagree with but nothing illegal). Was it a personal matter?

Also not clear your saying a HOA board member emailed everyone in the association with information of unpaid dues? Our HOA we did not reveal names but referred to lot#'s. It wasn't hard to figure out who we were talking about but collection report wasn't handed out to anyone but board members. The importance of the report was just to let the membership know what actions the HOA board was taking to collect.

I can't comment on if this is okay or not. Again, some HOA's this is their practice to encourage non-payers to pay up. Which they have every right to collect.

Former HOA President
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3362


09/26/2019 5:51 AM  
The best thing to do to get back at them would be to...........

pay your dues
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2701


09/26/2019 7:40 AM  
Like Melissa, I need more details. Generally, any issue between an individual homeowner and the association is between them. I was also treasured of my association and was always concerned about unauthorized people learning the details of specific accounts. That's why I agree with Tim that disclosing the names of delinquent homeowners is a terrible idea (what if you're wrong?). Has anyone seen this disclosure result in the money being paid? Anyone? I've asked this question at least twice on this board and the response is...crickets.

For a moment,I wondered if this was a bad, bad missus (maybe the board member meant to send this to fellow board members, but used the wrong email?). However, this sounds deliberate, so you should start with talking to that board member - send him/her a letter and copy the others. You should demand an apology from that board member - and if you do owe the money, pay up (this really is a separate issue from the board member's behavior).

If nothing happens, I suppose you could go after that board member in small claims court - since you didn't give us any details, I done know if this is something you can or should hold the entire board responsible for.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8730


09/26/2019 9:20 AM  
I also need more information. Part of the monthly financials our MC sends to the BOD is a list of names and address of anybody behind in dues so the BOD knows all.

When a non-BOD owner requests the monthly financials, the delinquent list is not included.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/26/2019 9:31 AM  
Some HOA publish unit #s but not names.

Still shaming, but many people are known by their names rather than their unit numbers.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3362


09/26/2019 9:35 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 09/25/2019 11:26 PM
There have been discussions about this in the past. Unfortunately, some Associations and/or Boards prefer public shaming to see if this can get the individuals to pay. From the past discussions, there seems to be nothing (other then ethical behavior on part of the board) to prevent such actions.




It isnt public shaming, its simply a fact.

My town's annual report (and every town I know of) lists every person and property address of everyone who has not paid taxes. It is not public shaming, its simply a fact. Along with all the other financial facts of the town such as salaries of employees, budgets for each dept, how much they spent on a copy machine, etc, etc.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:121


09/26/2019 9:41 AM  
Posted By TimB4 on 09/25/2019 11:26 PM
There have been discussions about this in the past. Unfortunately, some Associations and/or Boards prefer public shaming to see if this can get the individuals to pay. From the past discussions, there seems to be nothing (other then ethical behavior on part of the board) to prevent such actions.

Personally, having served as Treasurer, I hated having to send out the late notices to people.
It was always to the same people. Therefore I understand the desire to use public shaming.
However, I strongly disagree with it.



We're going to have to agree to disagree.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8730


09/26/2019 11:21 AM  
I will agree to disagree as I believe in what some call shaming. I say it is not shaming to show this information to fellow owners.
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1453


09/26/2019 1:33 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/26/2019 11:21 AM
I will agree to disagree as I believe in what some call shaming. I say it is not shaming to show this information to fellow owners.


Due to state open records requirements in Florida, any member could view/copy this information if they so desired. While I'm not in favor of posting names on the bulletin board and in the newsletter, I'm fine with sharing the info if owners ask.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:319


09/26/2019 1:38 PM  
Public shaming is basically a lawsuit waiting to happen, particularly if persons other than the HOA board do it and if the publicly-posted information is wrong at all.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:121


09/26/2019 2:10 PM  
Posted By PaulJ6 on 09/26/2019 1:38 PM
Public shaming is basically a lawsuit waiting to happen, particularly if persons other than the HOA board do it and if the publicly-posted information is wrong at all.



SORRY, we are in the age of public shaming.
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:319


09/26/2019 2:33 PM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 09/26/2019 2:10 PM
Posted By PaulJ6 on 09/26/2019 1:38 PM
Public shaming is basically a lawsuit waiting to happen, particularly if persons other than the HOA board do it and if the publicly-posted information is wrong at all.



SORRY, we are in the age of public shaming.




I've seen lawsuits filed after HOAs did public shaming. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

We're also in the age of "litigation for all".
StevenM8
(Minnesota)

Posts:18


09/27/2019 10:11 AM  
The ugly back story.


Board email:

"Subject :Volunteers Needed!
To Residents,

We are looking for 2-3 volunteers to assist the Board. These volunteers would not be Board members. One volunteer is needed to assist the Treasurer. The volunteer would maintain the books and assist with collecting past dues. The ideal volunteer would have some general accounting knowledge and be interested in joining the board when the Treasurer’s term is up this spring. The hope is that this will ease the minds of those questioning the books.

One to two volunteers are needed to assist with scheduling a special meeting to fill the vacant board positions. The goal is to have a meeting in the next month but the board needs some assistance as the Vice President and Secretary positions are currently vacant.

At this time, we are not moving forward with obtaining a management company. To be transparent, there are currently three board members of which only two have voting rights. xxxx has not paid his 2018 dues. Due to this fact, we are not able to vote on a management company until we have a full board or at least three board members with voting rights.

Also, please disregard the survey that was sent earlier today. Other board members had no knowledge of the survey and thus it was not board approved and has been deleted.

Regards,
xxxxxx xxxxxx, President"

Survey Sent out:

"XXXXXXe Home Owners,

I am sending out this survey to get your input on what I should advise the other board members to do as our next course of action. The debate is between should we fill vacant board positions and let them decide on Professional Management company or hire a management company and let them fill the positions.

For historical sake our Vice President resigned in May and our Secretary in August. We are 2 directors short of a full board. If we do an early Annual meeting for the year 2020 in October of 2019 we will have 3 new openings as one of the current director's term would be up. The term of each board members is 2 years. Directors of a special election would require us to re-election board members at the next annual meeting.

Thank you for your input.

Option A - Hold Annual meeting to fill board
Option B - Have current board hire professional management company"


Here is the response by the member to the unpaid dues.

"Subject: Clarification on XXXX XXXX - HOA Dues
Many of you may not know me, but you do know of my husband xxx as a member of the current HOA Board. Today, he was called out by the HOA President for not paying our HOA dues. I have been part of the silent majority in this neighborhood, but when the integrity of my husband and myself is in question, I feel it is necessary to speak out. On May xth, 2018, I proactively reached out to the current (now past) board specifically asking what we would owe for dues to the HOA for 2018. We were moving from xxxth Circle to xxxx Street and I wanted to make sure that we were in compliance with payment of our dues as we moved from one house to the other. I was told by the board members at that time that "The annual dues for 2018 won’t be assessed for the new property until the structure of the house is complete." and "The lot fee is paid once when the builder closes on the property with Woodland. You do not pay that. The only fee you pay is the HOA dues and any documents request fees." This Spring we were told by members of the current board that we had not paid our dues. They insisted that we owed a full years dues even though I had already paid dues for the property on xxxth Circle in 2018. I brought this information noted above to the new board members and offered to pay the prorated dues from the time we technically occupied 2 houses in the neighborhood (July xx, 2018 - August xx, 2018). I did not get a response from the board members I was interacting with. Now, we were publicly shamed by those same board members that refused to work with me to on a reasonable resolution. My point is, I was part of the silent majority in this neighborhood. Shame on me. I should have been more active. I should have taken more of an interest. I should have been more informed. All of us now have that opportunity and I urge the rest of the silent majority to speak up for this neighborhood through your vote at the upcoming meeting. I look forward to the day when we can all be neighbors and act as neighbors should."

Further, after the email went out the former board President vouched for the claim by the Member.
"I saw the email that the board sent earlier today about XXXX XXXX. I came across this email from May 2018 that I sent to xxx xxx regarding the lot they purchased in late 2018. In the email, I did state the $xxx fee would not be assessed on their new lot until the house was built. I’m not sure when the house was built, but you should be able to find the certificate of occupancy on the county website.

If the house wasn’t built in 2018, I believe the board needs to honor my statement below and the dues would not be due for 2018.

On a side note, I do not believe it’s appropriate to call out a residents financial standing in a communication to all residents. I understand there is a lot going on at the board, but calling out the financial standing of a resident does not seem right. "
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2701


09/27/2019 11:10 AM  
Good Lord, where to begin? Ok, here's one person's opinion...

Email #1 - it's not a good idea to have a volunteer to handle delinquency information at all. Too much risk of individual homeowner information getting to unauthorized people (such as emails being sent to everyone). You'd be better off hiring a part time bookkeeper to help the treasurer - this way you can also prevent selective enforcement.

Have ANY of you read your documents???? I suspect there could be language allowing the board to appoint board members to fill out a term until the annual meeting where people can vote for the appointees (if they choose to run for a spot) or someone else. Pull them out and read them immediately!

Yes, it was a bad move to announce you were behind in your assessments and therefore ineligible - that's private information between you and the association and you already know what I think about disclosure of specific delinquent homeowners. That said, your documents likely state only owners current in their assessments can serve on the board. You should know that, and therefore should have settled this business with the assessments before proceeding further with your board duties.

Which brings us to email #3 - your wife meant well, but I wouldn't have sent that email. Now everyone knows your personal business, so why are you telling about email #1? You should have marched to your attorney when it showed up in your inbox.

As for email #2, did you send that? If so, I would agree this was unauthorized, but it doesn't justify what was in email #1 about you being behind in your assessments.

(You do realize you could have saved everyone some time if you'd given us the back story at the start, don't you? It does help to have some context?)

Now that everything is out, I would suggest you request an executive session with the board so you can (1) settle this assessment business - and bring whatever documents you have that support your side, along with the former board members you spoke to. Once that's done, have a serious discussion about these emails.

The only thing that makes sense in this data is the decision to hold off on selecting property manager. You do need one, but first you and the board members need to get your act together and learn how to behave. Go to the CAI website and invest in some educational materials as well as use the search function on this website to look up conversations on emails, assessment collection, working with property e and whatever else you're wondering about. You can get a lot of helpful advice and lessons about what works and doesn't, and adapt the better approaches to your community.

Good luck y'all -you will need it!
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8730


09/27/2019 11:31 AM  
Now that everything is out, I would suggest you request an executive session with the board so you can (1) settle this assessment business - and bring whatever documents you have that support your side, along with the former board members you spoke to. Once that's done, have a serious discussion about these emails.

I agree.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/27/2019 11:32 AM  
Hi Steven

There's something I don't understand.

Do your docs actually say that someone who is delinquent cannot serve on the BOD or vote on BOD decisions?

Or do your docs say something less stringent?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
StevenM8
(Minnesota)

Posts:18


09/27/2019 12:01 PM  
Couldn't find anything in bylaws. I don't want to be on the board, but can't resign.

There is more to this story in that there is a petition in place signed by 10% of the members for removal of other board members.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/27/2019 12:09 PM  
Posted By StevenM8 on 09/27/2019 12:01 PM
Couldn't find anything in bylaws. I don't want to be on the board, but can't resign.

There is more to this story in that there is a petition in place signed by 10% of the members for removal of other board members.



Having trouble following what you're saying.
If there's nothing in your docs, then where does the no-delinquency rule come from?
Are you saying that you cannot resign, or you don't want to resign?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
StevenM8
(Minnesota)

Posts:18


09/27/2019 12:18 PM  
There is language about voting rights of members, but nothing about board members.

We have 3 board of directors for a board of 5.

2 already resigned. The other 2 are sisters and members have signed petition signed for a special meeting to remove the 2 other board members. (that would leave 1 person on the board)

I want to resign, but don't feel I can.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8730


09/27/2019 12:32 PM  
Our docs saying member in good standing. We have always considered this to mean current in dues and no violations/legal against.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/27/2019 12:37 PM  
Posted By StevenM8 on 09/27/2019 12:18 PM
There is language about voting rights of members, but nothing about board members.


That's what I thought. There are restrictions on homeowners but not on BOD members. That's the major flaw that I see in what happened.

It would be ridiculous if the BOD couldn't perform its functions because of a dispute over money owed.

Doesn't matter to me that what you say is accurate or not. The amount is disputed. Period.

Hold the BOD vote. Do not shut down the BOD. Somebody doesn't have any clue about how to run an HOA.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/27/2019 12:42 PM  
If there is nothing in your docs that gives authority to a BOD member to exclude another BOD member from voting, that's crazy. The BOD must be able to function.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
PaulJ6
(New York)

Posts:319


09/27/2019 12:42 PM  
StevenM8, the email was defamatory and potentially a violation of various debt collection statutes.

I'd file a small-claims lawsuit against the president first and then address things with a lawsuit looming over the president's head.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/27/2019 12:43 PM  
CORRECTED:

If there is nothing in your docs that gives authority to a BOD member to exclude another BOD member from voting, and it happened, then that's crazy. The BOD must be able to function.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/27/2019 1:01 PM  
Hypothetical situation:

The MC does what I say.
There's an upcoming BOD vote that I know will come out 3-2 against the way I want.
I instruct the MC to issue fines to 2 of the opposing BOD members for putting out their trash cans before dusk. The fines make them delinquent.
When it comes time to vote, only the other 3 can vote.
We have a quorum. The result is 2-1 in favor of what I want.
Tada.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:121


09/27/2019 1:10 PM  
Posted By NpS on 09/27/2019 1:01 PM
Hypothetical situation:

The MC does what I say.
There's an upcoming BOD vote that I know will come out 3-2 against the way I want.
I instruct the MC to issue fines to 2 of the opposing BOD members for putting out their trash cans before dusk. The fines make them delinquent.
When it comes time to vote, only the other 3 can vote.
We have a quorum. The result is 2-1 in favor of what I want.
Tada.




SORRY, the scenario is NOT hypothetical. In fact, it happens.

Also, a fine does not make you delinquent. Not paying it does.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/27/2019 1:32 PM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 09/27/2019 1:10 PM
Posted By NpS on 09/27/2019 1:01 PM
Hypothetical situation:

The MC does what I say.
There's an upcoming BOD vote that I know will come out 3-2 against the way I want.
I instruct the MC to issue fines to 2 of the opposing BOD members for putting out their trash cans before dusk. The fines make them delinquent.
When it comes time to vote, only the other 3 can vote.
We have a quorum. The result is 2-1 in favor of what I want.
Tada.




SORRY, the scenario is NOT hypothetical. In fact, it happens.

Also, a fine does not make you delinquent. Not paying it does.



Ok. So let's change the hypothetical. The 2 BOD members who were fined say that the fines were selectively applied and refuse to pay.
Fines not paid = delinquent. Still Tada.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/27/2019 1:36 PM  
My point is that every HOA I know of has rules about how to remove a BOD member. But not of them have rules about not allowing a BOD member to vote.

IMO there's a very good reason why it is this way. There is a higher standard required to remove someone. It should be respected.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/27/2019 1:38 PM  
CORRECTED:

My point is that every HOA I know of has rules about how to remove a BOD member. But none of them have rules about not allowing a BOD member to vote.

IMO there's a very good reason why it is this way. There is a higher standard required to remove someone. It should be respected.

No one should be able to undermine the right of a BOD member to do his or her job.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8730


09/27/2019 4:39 PM  
My thinking at this point (and it has changed) is you cannot restrict an owner from voting on HOA things such as Covenant/Bylaw changes, but you can prohibit them from running for election to the BOD and suspend them from the BOD if not a Member in Good Standing.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8601


09/27/2019 5:41 PM  
Do not know why a board member would lose their ability to vote. Here is the "rub". You can be a member in bad standing and still run for the board. You just can not vote for yourself. Who is going to vote for someone in bad standing? You still have a "board" vote but not an "individual" vote. Unless your documents spell out something different.

My vice-president stopped paying his dues for months. It wasn't a secret. We fully disclosed the Lot #'s of who did not pay. Plus it was a hot topic amongst the membership. However at the time we had lost 3 of the 5 board members. Our Treasurer was the accounting firm. It was just me and him, and I moved out living in another neighborhood (Next door). There was nothing in our documents that allowed me to appoint or have a special election.

So it goes living in a HOA. You are ALL neighbors in it to keep the neighborhood pretty. Your going to be talked about as if you went to church....

Former HOA President
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:121


09/27/2019 7:15 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 09/27/2019 5:41 PM
Do not know why a board member would lose their ability to vote. Here is the "rub". You can be a member in bad standing and still run for the board. You just can not vote for yourself. Who is going to vote for someone in bad standing? You still have a "board" vote but not an "individual" vote. Unless your documents spell out something different.

My vice-president stopped paying his dues for months. It wasn't a secret. We fully disclosed the Lot #'s of who did not pay. Plus it was a hot topic amongst the membership. However at the time we had lost 3 of the 5 board members. Our Treasurer was the accounting firm. It was just me and him, and I moved out living in another neighborhood (Next door). There was nothing in our documents that allowed me to appoint or have a special election.

So it goes living in a HOA. You are ALL neighbors in it to keep the neighborhood pretty. Your going to be talked about as if you went to church....



That was YOUR documents, have you ever read any others?
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/27/2019 8:26 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/27/2019 4:39 PM
you can prohibit them from running for election to the BOD and suspend them from the BOD if not a Member in Good Standing.


Who do you think can suspend a BOD member (membership vote? BOD member vote?) and under what authority do you think that it can be done?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:121


09/27/2019 8:28 PM  
The Board can suspend another Board under the same powers that they can suspend a regular member.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/27/2019 8:43 PM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 09/27/2019 8:28 PM
The Board can suspend another Board under the same powers that they can suspend a regular member.


I would disagree. If the homeowners elected a BOD member, I don't believe that anyone but the homeowners should be able to remove or diminish the rights/responsibilities of that BOD member.

I've seen where a BOD-selected Board member can be removed by the BOD, but never when a BOD member was elected by the homeowners.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MarkW18
(Florida)

Posts:121


09/27/2019 8:57 PM  
So if your Bylaws state that a Board member shall not be delinquent in their payments, who removes them and how? I know how it is supposed to be done, what say you?
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/28/2019 6:27 AM  
Posted By MarkW18 on 09/27/2019 8:57 PM
So if your Bylaws state that a Board member shall not be delinquent in their payments, who removes them and how? I know how it is supposed to be done, what say you?


If it's explicitly stated in the bylaws, I defer to your perspective. No one needs to remove them. Their vote doesn't count.

Not sure how common such a restriction is. I do know of situations where a BOD member gets behind and then catches up. Do you think there should be any room in explicitly stated bylaws if a BOD member for example loses her job?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8730


09/28/2019 9:35 AM  
Posted By NpS on 09/27/2019 8:26 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/27/2019 4:39 PM
you can prohibit them from running for election to the BOD and suspend them from the BOD if not a Member in Good Standing.


Who do you think can suspend a BOD member (membership vote? BOD member vote?) and under what authority do you think that it can be done?




The authority is our docs that say all BOD Members must be Members in Good Standing.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/28/2019 9:56 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/28/2019 9:35 AM
The authority is our docs that say all BOD Members must be Members in Good Standing.


It seems to me that "in good standing" is a phrase that is open to interpretation.

I suppose it's done that way intentionally, with the expectation that each HOA will develop its own standards of behavior.

I assume that your BOD has the authority to set those standards, so they probably can enforce the rules they create against an individual BOD member.

As already stated, my concern is improper use by those in power to exclude someone who was elected by the membership.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3234


09/28/2019 1:10 PM  
This is one area where Florida's laws are clear. A Director who becomes delinquent in any monetary obligation to the HOA for more than 90 days is deemed to have abandoned his seat. He or she is removed from the board by operation of law. No votes necessary and it doesn't matter what the rest of the board thinks.

Other than that (and the commission of a felony) the only way a board member can be removed is by a recall vote of the homeowners where a majority (of all voting interests, not merely a quorum) votes in favor of recall. This applies whether a board member was elected by the homeowners or selected by the rest of the board to fill a vacancy.

Many HOAs have language in their governing documents that purport to establish conditions where a Director may be ousted. All such attempts to do an end-run around the statute have failed. Florida's HOA law is full of gray areas and ambiguities but this is not one of them. Arbitrators have ruled again and again and again that the statute takes precedence over any individual HOA's governing documents where "getting rid of board members" is concerned.

The worst part about this is ignorant homeowners who don't know what the law says but think that they do.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8730


09/28/2019 2:17 PM  
Posted By NpS on 09/28/2019 9:56 AM
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/28/2019 9:35 AM
The authority is our docs that say all BOD Members must be Members in Good Standing.


It seems to me that "in good standing" is a phrase that is open to interpretation.

I suppose it's done that way intentionally, with the expectation that each HOA will develop its own standards of behavior.

I assume that your BOD has the authority to set those standards, so they probably can enforce the rules they create against an individual BOD member.

As already stated, my concern is improper use by those in power to exclude someone who was elected by the membership.




To clarify. The BOD cannot remove a BOD Member that was elected by the owners. The BOD can remove a BOD Member they appointed. I have said our BOD can suspend the BOD voting right of a BOD Member who is not in good standing. I assume (not really sure) they might even be able to attend BOD Meetings and speak but they cannot vote.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8730


09/28/2019 2:20 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/28/2019 2:17 PM
Posted By NpS on 09/28/2019 9:56 AM
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/28/2019 9:35 AM
The authority is our docs that say all BOD Members must be Members in Good Standing.


It seems to me that "in good standing" is a phrase that is open to interpretation.

I suppose it's done that way intentionally, with the expectation that each HOA will develop its own standards of behavior.

I assume that your BOD has the authority to set those standards, so they probably can enforce the rules they create against an individual BOD member.

As already stated, my concern is improper use by those in power to exclude someone who was elected by the membership.




To clarify. The BOD cannot remove a BOD Member that was elected by the owners. The BOD can remove a BOD Member they appointed. I have said our BOD can suspend the BOD voting right of a BOD Member who is not in good standing. I assume (not really sure) they might even be able to attend BOD Meetings and speak but they cannot vote.




ADDITION

I have said our BOD can suspend the BOD voting right of a BOD Member who is not in good standing. I never said we could remove him for not being in good standing. We cannot.


NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/28/2019 2:46 PM  
Posted By GenoS on 09/28/2019 1:10 PM
This is one area where Florida's laws are clear. A Director who becomes delinquent in any monetary obligation to the HOA for more than 90 days is deemed to have abandoned his seat. He or she is removed from the board by operation of law. No votes necessary and it doesn't matter what the rest of the board thinks.

Other than that (and the commission of a felony) the only way a board member can be removed is by a recall vote of the homeowners where a majority (of all voting interests, not merely a quorum) votes in favor of recall. This applies whether a board member was elected by the homeowners or selected by the rest of the board to fill a vacancy.

Many HOAs have language in their governing documents that purport to establish conditions where a Director may be ousted. All such attempts to do an end-run around the statute have failed. Florida's HOA law is full of gray areas and ambiguities but this is not one of them. Arbitrators have ruled again and again and again that the statute takes precedence over any individual HOA's governing documents where "getting rid of board members" is concerned.

The worst part about this is ignorant homeowners who don't know what the law says but think that they do.


Clearly covers my concerns.

A couple of questions Geno?

1. Are these new provisions or have they been around for a while? If relatively new, do you think it was improvement over what you had before?

2. FL now has mandatory training for BOD members. Has it made a difference?

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/28/2019 2:52 PM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/28/2019 2:20 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/28/2019 2:17 PM
Posted By NpS on 09/28/2019 9:56 AM
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/28/2019 9:35 AM
The authority is our docs that say all BOD Members must be Members in Good Standing.


It seems to me that "in good standing" is a phrase that is open to interpretation.

I suppose it's done that way intentionally, with the expectation that each HOA will develop its own standards of behavior.

I assume that your BOD has the authority to set those standards, so they probably can enforce the rules they create against an individual BOD member.

As already stated, my concern is improper use by those in power to exclude someone who was elected by the membership.




To clarify. The BOD cannot remove a BOD Member that was elected by the owners. The BOD can remove a BOD Member they appointed. I have said our BOD can suspend the BOD voting right of a BOD Member who is not in good standing. I assume (not really sure) they might even be able to attend BOD Meetings and speak but they cannot vote.

Understood.

But I'm wondering. Per Geno, FL has a 90 day fixed rule. Do you have a fixed rule, or is it left to the discretion of the BOD to interpret what "in good standing" means when an issue arises?


ADDITION

I have said our BOD can suspend the BOD voting right of a BOD Member who is not in good standing. I never said we could remove him for not being in good standing. We cannot.






Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3234


09/28/2019 7:28 PM  
Posted By NpS on 09/28/2019 2:46 PM
A couple of questions Geno?

1. Are these new provisions or have they been around for a while? If relatively new, do you think it was improvement over what you had before?

2. FL now has mandatory training for BOD members. Has it made a difference?

Sure,

1. They're not new. In DBPR arb Case No. 2016-02-9644 the arbitrator cites a 1994 decision,

"A board of administration in general has no authority to remove a board member by board action. Dehne v. Ocean Club II Condominium Association, Arb. Case No. 93-0137, Summary Final Order (January 31, 1994)."

and also cites a 1995 decision,

"Since Section 718.112(2)(k), Florida Statutes, “provides for removal of a board member by recall by the unit owners, the board may not remove a board member, notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in the condominium documents purporting to authorize board removal by board action.”"

Note that DBPR arbitrators freely refer to and cite as precedent prior rulings in Condominium cases even though they're arbitrating HOA disputes and vice versa. It's one area where the condo statute (FS 718) and the HOA statute (FS 720) are pretty much in agreement.

So I don't know if it's an improvement over whatever used to be the norm, but whatever existed before must have been worse. Idiotic overtures to kick a couple of board members off the board in my own HOA in just the last 4 years were stopped in their tracks once the attorney read the riot act to the idiots. It headed off months of toxicity that was headed to absurd levels.

2. The mandatory "training" has limited utility. A few hours may reach new board members who have a desire to learn something. A few hours isn't anywhere near enough, though, and from what I've seen in person it's usually a waste of time. A couple of years ago we had a new president who came away from his certification training curriculum and proclaimed that he learned we could hire a management company and use the reserves to pay for it. It was gold as far as entertainment value goes, but there's no way he learned that from that course.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/29/2019 4:37 AM  
Posted By GenoS on 09/28/2019 7:28 PM
Idiotic overtures to kick a couple of board members off the board in my own HOA in just the last 4 years were stopped in their tracks once the attorney read the riot act to the idiots. It headed off months of toxicity that was headed to absurd levels.


What are your thoughts about posters where who complain about "rogue" boards?

BTW, liked your story about using reserves to pay MC. Maybe to pay me a salary too. Haha.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3758


09/29/2019 4:38 AM  
CORRECTED:

Posted By GenoS on 09/28/2019 7:28 PM
Idiotic overtures to kick a couple of board members off the board in my own HOA in just the last 4 years were stopped in their tracks once the attorney read the riot act to the idiots. It headed off months of toxicity that was headed to absurd levels.


What are your thoughts about posters here who complain about "rogue" boards?

BTW, liked your story about using reserves to pay MC. Maybe to pay me a salary too. Haha.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3234


09/29/2019 1:57 PM  
Posted By NpS on 09/29/2019 4:38 AM
What are your thoughts about posters here who complain about "rogue" boards?

It's cliché but it's true that every situation is different and has unique facts. So you need to figure out if someone claiming to have a "rogue board" really knows what that means or if they're just spouting off because they've heard the term before. It seems like many don't really understand what's what and jump to conclusions. On the other hand I think many do have legitimate gripes and causes for concern. I'd like to see the statistics about how many "Rogue Boarders" themselves become candidates in their next election.
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Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > What recourse does a member have with an HOA board member for emailing the Association about a member not paying dues?



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