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Subject: Embedded Private Road inside Public Roads POA - parking squabbles
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GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/05/2019 6:13 AM  
Hi All,

Still working to understand our 314 property single family POA in Florida. Slowly uncovering issues - some typical, some different by virtue of the way the community was developed.

One such interesting issue, but probably not all that uncommon, is that we have four streets that are private property - owned by the POA. One actually connects from the major access road for the community, directly into the community for about 1/4 mile, providing access to restaurants, small businesses, medical services - we are paid assessments by these business per a "Covenant to Pay" that was executed at the time of the development. Another street crosses this one at a 90 degree angle and is connects the community with the medical services building and a shopping center. In some respects this is convenient, but there is both cost and liability. We are handling this OK, I think - reserve study includes the roads status, costs to repave, etc - we maintain these two roads and have suitable liability insurance (confirmed by meetings with the insurance rep, but I am still reviewing this).

Background
There are two other streets that are interior streets - these provide access to residents in our "Bungalows." The Bungalows (also separated, single family) are designed such that two opposing rows (10 houses on each opposing row) of homes are accessed from the back of the home with garages - the fronts on one row are on the entrance boulevard for the community and the fronts on the other are on the other private road. The private road is 25' wide.

First parking squabble in 20 years
Two side by side neighbors fighting over one neighbor continually parking behind their house, which means their visitors cannot park there, and sometimes the parking by the offending neighbor partially blocks access to the driveway - or, makes it very difficult for the offended neighbor to maneuver to park.

We have never had parking restrictions on the interior roads (other roads have parking spots for businesses, etc, that are governed by our docs and standing legal agreements). Neither our CCRs, nor R&Rs discuss this.

So, my intent is to try and smooth the issue without further involvement or document changes, but I have a feeling this is gonna get more contentious (the offenders are twits). Given the lack of current discussion, and fact that POA owns the road, it would seem reasonable to include restrictions in the Rules and Regulations. Lots of questions about appropriate legal language, but we can work that out with retained attorney. Real issue is how to mitigate the basic issue without over organizing, and over policing. POA Board involvement in policing is always fraught - could this be accomplished with the management company being the contact point and executing on behalf of the Board? I don't think we want to start a fining process for this - probably more effective to just have offending vehicles towed?

Would appreciate your thoughts.

Attachment: 185134533771.pdf

NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3572


08/05/2019 7:00 AM  
I don't understand. If this is the first squabble in 20 years, why would you consider establishing a new policy that could piss off a whole lot more.

Towing? Oh, that won't cause any problems. Really?

Given your situation, I'm sure that it happens with more than just those 2 owners. But you don't hear about it because people figure out how to work things out.

If suddenly your community learns that it's now the BOD's responsibility to fix the lack or courtesy, then you've opened yourself to a mess. If it worked for 20 years, then people have figured out how to live with each other.

If you feel that you must take some action, then maybe you have a way to demand that the 2 squabblers attend mediation. Their problem - Put them on notice that they need to deal with it themselves.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
TimM11


Posts:287


08/05/2019 7:32 AM  
Towing would solve the blocked driveway issue (maybe with a warning first). That shouldn't be happening under any circumstances.

I don't fully understand the visitor parking issue. Does each unit have assigned visitor parking spaces? If they're not assigned, it seems that visitors can park in any designated area and a homeowner would not have a right to a particular spot.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:338


08/05/2019 7:37 AM  
If the offenders are not violating any community rule or restriction, then it's a neighbor-to-neighbor dispute and our attorney always advised the board and PM to stay out of it.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/05/2019 7:40 AM  
NpS - thats the point - police are going to get called - since road is private, they will shrug and say solve it to the owners - i.e. the Association.

Tim - no assigned spots since hasn't come up before. No designated areas. Other than the driveway (see photo), only "spot" is directly behind an owner's property. Twenty properties, twenty street spots to park.

Due to the tight quarters, cooperation is obviously the best solution - BUT, since the POA owns the street, and maintains the street, we have some responsibility to work through this issue.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/05/2019 7:41 AM  
Cathy,

There has been nothing like this previously - so, the Board can modify the R&Rs to include restrictions and process for reporting violations, for these POA owned streets, right?
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8550


08/05/2019 8:20 AM  
George

I do not see anything wrong in how this car is parked. It does not seem to be blocking anything. What am I missing?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/05/2019 8:25 AM  
Sorry - photo was just to show what the area looks like ... my bad.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3572


08/05/2019 8:39 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/05/2019 7:40 AM
NpS - thats the point - police are going to get called - since road is private, they will shrug and say solve it to the owners - i.e. the Association.


I agree that the police will say that its a dispute between the owners.

I do not agree that "owners" equals "Association."

Why?

This is a dispute between 2 owners. No one came along and changed the layout of your HOA. It is what it's been for at least 20 years and they chose to buy there. Maybe they lucked out and got nice neighbors. Maybe their neighbors are jackasses. But that's the risk anyone takes when they buy a house.

It is not the job of the HOA to fix every problem that people encounter. Why would you want to convert a 1-to-1 dispute between people who can't figure out how to get along into a community event.

In my HOA, we have a homeowner who has 2 cars and a 2 car garage and driveway. But he parks one of his 2 cars around the corner where its across from a couple of driveways. Why? Because he's a jackass. Everyone knows he's a jackass. Everyone knows that the BOD is not going to police his behavior.

At one time, our jackass painted black and yellow stripes along the curb where he parks. We threatened to start fining him if he didn't paint the curb grey again. He did. But that's when he started parking his car there more often. You see. All he wanted was to block others from parking there.

We used to get complaints about him. Like the police in your situation, we told our complainers that it's their problem to work things out. Eventually, that noise went away.

Yes we have parking issues. And we are looking at making some changes. But, and here's the important part, no one wants to sit down and work things out. They'd rather wait for the BOD to come up with something and then gripe about it.

In every community I've ever visited, parking is almost always an issue. My only point is - Decide for yourselves which neighbor-to-neighbor disputes your HOA is not going to take responsibility for, and run with it.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:338


08/05/2019 10:11 AM  
Posted By NpS on 08/05/2019 8:39 AM
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/05/2019 7:40 AM
NpS - thats the point - police are going to get called - since road is private, they will shrug and say solve it to the owners - i.e. the Association.


I agree that the police will say that its a dispute between the owners.

I do not agree that "owners" equals "Association."

Why?

This is a dispute between 2 owners. No one came along and changed the layout of your HOA. It is what it's been for at least 20 years and they chose to buy there. Maybe they lucked out and got nice neighbors. Maybe their neighbors are jackasses. But that's the risk anyone takes when they buy a house.

It is not the job of the HOA to fix every problem that people encounter. Why would you want to convert a 1-to-1 dispute between people who can't figure out how to get along into a community event.

In my HOA, we have a homeowner who has 2 cars and a 2 car garage and driveway. But he parks one of his 2 cars around the corner where its across from a couple of driveways. Why? Because he's a jackass. Everyone knows he's a jackass. Everyone knows that the BOD is not going to police his behavior.

At one time, our jackass painted black and yellow stripes along the curb where he parks. We threatened to start fining him if he didn't paint the curb grey again. He did. But that's when he started parking his car there more often. You see. All he wanted was to block others from parking there.

We used to get complaints about him. Like the police in your situation, we told our complainers that it's their problem to work things out. Eventually, that noise went away.

Yes we have parking issues. And we are looking at making some changes. But, and here's the important part, no one wants to sit down and work things out. They'd rather wait for the BOD to come up with something and then gripe about it.

In every community I've ever visited, parking is almost always an issue. My only point is - Decide for yourselves which neighbor-to-neighbor disputes your HOA is not going to take responsibility for, and run with it.




I agree 100%. When it gets down to it, the association has few effective tools for dealing with people who are determined to make trouble, because what they mostly want is attention. If the HOA tries to deal with the nonsense, the bad actors are being rewarded for their behavior and it gives them incentive to continue. We had a ridiculous dispute between two neighbors last summer, with outlandish and false accusations and threats to sue each other and the association, and we told them that it was their problem to resolve. They figured it out, or at least quit bothering the board and PM about it.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/05/2019 10:28 AM  
I get the neighbor vs neighbor component and want to avoid involvement of the POA, there.

However, given that the POA can establish and implement very basic parking rules in the this one small area, and when i say basic i mean ... park in your driveway or behind your own property. Since there is only one place behind each owners property, it’s pretty straightforward.

BTW - each home has a two car garage and can also accommodate two vehicles in each driveway.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:736


08/05/2019 10:32 AM  
Towing and parking are two hot button issues everywhere. I grew up back east where you learn rather quickly that when you park like an A hole you get your car impounded. Nowadays courts have ruled that impounding peoples cars for parking infractions is unconstitutional.

I had the same issue with my next-door neighbor. They have crap in their garage and park three cars outside, when their visitors come over or one of their roommates arrive they would always park their cars where they partially block a significant portion of my garage. I quickly grew tired of complaining to the HOA and their "all we'll just send them a letter response" It cost me $100 to visit a lawyer and have letter drafter to both the listed owner and the rental agency for the rental home. I followed that up with filing a complaint with the police complete with the certified receipts from the post office and a slew of time and date stamped photographs with license plates of the offenders. So far getting hot and heavy with these ignorant jerks paid off in spades. I can freely enter and leave my home free of obstructions.


perhaps a valve stem remover is a cheaper alternative hmmm.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:736


08/05/2019 10:34 AM  
Every property owner has exclusive use of their property.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:736


08/05/2019 10:36 AM  
Posted By NpS on 08/05/2019 8:39 AM
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/05/2019 7:40 AM
NpS - thats the point - police are going to get called - since road is private, they will shrug and say solve it to the owners - i.e. the Association.


I agree that the police will say that its a dispute between the owners.

I do not agree that "owners" equals "Association."

Why?

This is a dispute between 2 owners. No one came along and changed the layout of your HOA. It is what it's been for at least 20 years and they chose to buy there. Maybe they lucked out and got nice neighbors. Maybe their neighbors are jackasses. But that's the risk anyone takes when they buy a house.

It is not the job of the HOA to fix every problem that people encounter. Why would you want to convert a 1-to-1 dispute between people who can't figure out how to get along into a community event.

In my HOA, we have a homeowner who has 2 cars and a 2 car garage and driveway. But he parks one of his 2 cars around the corner where its across from a couple of driveways. Why? Because he's a jackass. Everyone knows he's a jackass. Everyone knows that the BOD is not going to police his behavior.

At one time, our jackass painted black and yellow stripes along the curb where he parks. We threatened to start fining him if he didn't paint the curb grey again. He did. But that's when he started parking his car there more often. You see. All he wanted was to block others from parking there.

We used to get complaints about him. Like the police in your situation, we told our complainers that it's their problem to work things out. Eventually, that noise went away.

Yes we have parking issues. And we are looking at making some changes. But, and here's the important part, no one wants to sit down and work things out. They'd rather wait for the BOD to come up with something and then gripe about it.

In every community I've ever visited, parking is almost always an issue. My only point is - Decide for yourselves which neighbor-to-neighbor disputes your HOA is not going to take responsibility for, and run with it.





The association can be behind the 8 ball if they do nothing to enforce parking restrictions. I think a couple of $1000.00 fines just might cure ignorance.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3572


08/05/2019 11:43 AM  
Posted By LetA on 08/05/2019 10:36 AM
The association can be behind the 8 ball if they do nothing to enforce parking restrictions. I think a couple of $1000.00 fines just might cure ignorance.


In the last 5 years, my HOA fined only 2 owners. One has the worst looking house in the neighborhood because he won't spend any money to fix it. The other cut down an 80-foot HOA-owned tree because it dropped sap on the car in his driveway. Boy did we show the 2 of them.

Or did we? How much of those fines did we collect? $0. The only way we're going to collect is to go to court.

I don't want to be a pain, but you seem to be awful quick to look for easy solutions - that just aren't. Fines can backfire. Towing can backfire. Changing a 20-year-old practice can backfire.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8550


08/05/2019 4:02 PM  
Posted By NpS on 08/05/2019 11:43 AM
Posted By LetA on 08/05/2019 10:36 AM
The association can be behind the 8 ball if they do nothing to enforce parking restrictions. I think a couple of $1000.00 fines just might cure ignorance.


In the last 5 years, my HOA fined only 2 owners. One has the worst looking house in the neighborhood because he won't spend any money to fix it. The other cut down an 80-foot HOA-owned tree because it dropped sap on the car in his driveway. Boy did we show the 2 of them.

Or did we? How much of those fines did we collect? $0. The only way we're going to collect is to go to court.

I don't want to be a pain, but you seem to be awful quick to look for easy solutions - that just aren't. Fines can backfire. Towing can backfire. Changing a 20-year-old practice can backfire.




I agree.

We are 4 years into running our HOA. We have never fined nor liened nor foreclosed. The present BOD is more pro-active and fines and liens are coming. In SC we can lien for but not foreclose based on fines. I do not ever see us foreclosing unless our attorney proves to us we should. As best we can find out, the majority of our major dues deadbeats are up to their a$$e$ in debt thus no blood from a stone.

We just trying to scare people into removing/stopping violations and catch their dues up. We are not looking for money nor legal problems.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/05/2019 8:14 PM  
There has been no 20 yr practice - nada of any kind. This is the first instance on this, but i think the POA being the owner of the street, should be involved.

This is just now happening ... typical randomness of the cosmic number generation system.

Thinking something simple ... like, “No Parking At Any Time.” Post signs, let neighbors call to tow with contracted towing company that understands the policy in order to be paid.

This is not a neighborhood where an owner is going to spend much money trying to take folks to court - because they don't have much money. And, if we set this up legally through the R&Rs, should work out ok.

Gonna have to spend some more POA money on our attorney.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3572


08/06/2019 6:02 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/05/2019 8:14 PM
There has been no 20 yr practice - nada of any kind.


Ahh but there is a 20 yr practice of not getting involved in 1-to-1 parking disputes.
You might not see it that way now, but you might miss it down the lane.
Best of luck.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
ND
(PA)

Posts:330


08/06/2019 6:17 AM  
George,

The 20-year practice that NpS refers to is the lack of any rules or regulations for the last 20 years dictating how people can/cannot park on your HOA-owned streets . . . and there has been no issue until now.

I agree with others that it's a bad idea to implement an unnecessary rule, but seems like you're intent on doing it.

It's a slippery slope with generating a rule to appease one owner and try to prevent the actions of another owner . . . simply because they cannot work it out on their own. Has the "offended" owner spoken with the "offending" owner personally to try and solve this? If so, what is the outcome? What happens if someone has more than 1 visitor and needs to take up more than the 1 space directly behind their home? I'm sure it's happened before and folks have survived and figured things out.

I can assure you that establishing a rule where one does not need to exist is going to result in: an increase in complaints, an increase in necessary action by the BOD (no matter how much you try to distance yourself after standing up the rule), an increase in petty squabbling between neighbors (who now feel some sense of ownership over "their" space . . . even though it's HOA property), an increase in fighting and unhappiness when vehicles get towed.

I would suggest to the "offended" neighbor that they should take every opportunity to park in the spot closest to their home in order to prevent the "offending" neighbor from doing so. Even if their garage and driveway are empty, they should still park in that spot to control it more and send a message to this other neighbor.

GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/06/2019 7:14 AM  
Lots of interaction between them. Complaining side is calm and upset. The folks parking say, “f you, we’ll park anywhere we want.”

There are county roads around the corner, so anyone can park there.

There are lots of options ... the only ones I would support would not require board involvement. But, not sure which way to go, so looking for ideas.

- No Parking Any Time
- Parking Only Abutting Your Own Property
Etc
ND
(PA)

Posts:330


08/06/2019 7:57 AM  
George . . . are you the "offended" neighbor?


The picture you posted shows plenty of parking on the street and in owners' driveways. You confirm there is parking around the corner which can be used by anyone.

This is a non-issue for the HOA and Board. Enacting a rule to appease one owner while obviously in opposition to the seemingly legal/legitimate/permissible actions of another neighbor (regardless of the fact that they are a-holes) will escalate the situation unnecessarily.

The false sense of "ownership" that individual owners have with the spaces abutting their property helps to create this issue. That sense of "ownership" needs to be invalidated somehow.

Further, inserting the HOA as mediator in this situation will create the expectation that you'll mediate other neighbor-to-neighbor disputes (specifically between these two).
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:338


08/06/2019 8:00 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/06/2019 7:14 AM
Lots of interaction between them. Complaining side is calm and upset. The folks parking say, “f you, we’ll park anywhere we want.”




I've got $500 that says that the parking folks will say “f you, we’ll park anywhere we want” to the HOA and its rules.

Any takers?
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/06/2019 9:49 AM  
Good points, all.

Does the POA owning the road allow the POA to restrict parking?
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8550


08/06/2019 11:17 AM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 08/06/2019 8:00 AM
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/06/2019 7:14 AM
Lots of interaction between them. Complaining side is calm and upset. The folks parking say, “f you, we’ll park anywhere we want.”




I've got $500 that says that the parking folks will say “f you, we’ll park anywhere we want” to the HOA and its rules.

Any takers?




I agree. They are those type people.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8550


08/06/2019 11:38 AM  
Parking Stories

We have had few parking issues as we have few young drivers thus not many cars per home.

It all started when a neighbor notified the BOD that one home always had two cars in their driveway and one always parked on the street and often with its wheels over the curb, on the grass. We do not allow parking on any grass for several reasons but one reason being the HOA maintains the sprinkler systems and car do damage the heads if they run over them. Another is we consider it trashy looking.

We also do not allow overnight street parking.

I placed a note on the windshield of a car in the street that said:

Parking on the grass is prohibited.
Overnight street parking is not allowed.
There are street side pads so we suggest you park a car there overnight.
Thank you.
So and So HOA.

Well they did and the issue went away.

About 3 weeks later we get an Email from another owner complaining there has been a car parked in the same place, on a parking pad for over a week.

I replied that I had looked and the car was properly registered thus there was nothing else we could do.

She replied the person does not live here.

I replied show me how you know and if you are right, I will have the car removed.

She replied stop bullying me. It is your job, not mine.

She is also 6 months behind on her due.

I am now treating it with benign neglect.

TimM11


Posts:287


08/06/2019 1:13 PM  
Blocking a driveway is an issue, and I suppose if all of the guest parking was used by residents, that would be an issue too. But someone not being able to park right in front of their house/unit shouldn't be an issue as long as there is still parking somewhere.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/06/2019 2:44 PM  
I did forget one thing ... sorry.

The "offenders" in this case, park in front (actually it is behind) the defenders homes INSTEAD of parking behind their home or in their driveway - apparently it is easier to park there and to drive off from there.

OK - so, if I lived on the street - I don't BTW - just the Pres trying to find a way through this that will have long lasting goodness - I would welcome any rules that specified the single spot (not marked) behind my property was mine and only mine to park in. I would work with my neighbors to coordinate party parking (this is very rare in this area), etc.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8550


08/06/2019 3:42 PM  
George

To get this straight.

1. There are no parking restrictions on this street/alley?
2. Typically an owner will park against/behind their own property?
3. You have an interloper parking against/behind other people's property versus his own?
4. Other than a Ahole, how is the interloper wrong?

Is this really an HOA issue? I say not.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/06/2019 4:32 PM  
I dunno, John ... the very basis of having structure, like our POA, seems to lead one to a point where involvement to protect items of common interest from those that want to destroy the goodness and stability is a good thimg.

Again, if I lived in one of these 20 homes that back onto the POA, and I had a neighbor who continually parked behind my house, when their house spot was open, and their driveway empty, I would be very aggressive in trying to have the owner of that road develop rules to protect me. I would also, if forced, become very aggressive, park behindthe other persons’ house every possible opportunity ... potentially leading to physical conflict ...

Net - I’m going to seek a legal opinion - our attorney is very level headed and competent. Will see what our options are.

And, btw, the offenders are profane bullies ... I hate bullies.
ND
(PA)

Posts:330


08/07/2019 5:33 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/06/2019 4:32 PM
I dunno, John ... the very basis of having structure, like our POA, seems to lead one to a point where involvement to protect items of common interest from those that want to destroy the goodness and stability is a good thimg.

Again, if I lived in one of these 20 homes that back onto the POA, and I had a neighbor who continually parked behind my house, when their house spot was open, and their driveway empty, I would be very aggressive in trying to have the owner of that road develop rules to protect me. I would also, if forced, become very aggressive, park behindthe other persons’ house every possible opportunity ... potentially leading to physical conflict ...

Net - I’m going to seek a legal opinion - our attorney is very level headed and competent. Will see what our options are.

And, btw, the offenders are profane bullies ... I hate bullies.



Instituting a parking rule on this one street in your POA is unnecessarily involving the POA in a neighbor-to-neighbor conflict and will result in more significant issues for the POA, Board, offended neighbor, offending neighbor, and other neighbors.

Bottom line is that no rules are being broken and POA should not involve itself.

Creating a rule to try and put an end to a bully's behavior will not stop that behavior, but instead may have the opposite effect . . . increasing the behavior in both severity and scope. The bully won't stop or go away because you create a rule . . . you will further empower the bully because you're giving them exactly what they want . . . acknowledgement of their behavior, confrontation, discord, chaos. They'll likely push the envelope of a bunch more POA rules and laws to the point that your only hope will be for them to actually break a law that will allow the police to get involved.

Again, I suggest that the "offended" neighbor occupy the spot directly adjacent to their own property at every possible instance. Further, how often does the "offended" neighbor have visitors where they actually need that spot? This now seems like more of an issue of "offended" owner simply being annoyed because there is a sense of "ownership" of a spot to which they retain no legal rights, and now the exposed desire to try and get back at a bully by . . . being a bully.

If there is an issue of the driveway being blocked, perhaps there is an annoyance/safety rule in your docs that can be enforced for that.
TimM11


Posts:287


08/07/2019 7:34 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/06/2019 4:32 PM
I dunno, John ... the very basis of having structure, like our POA, seems to lead one to a point where involvement to protect items of common interest from those that want to destroy the goodness and stability is a good thimg.

Again, if I lived in one of these 20 homes that back onto the POA, and I had a neighbor who continually parked behind my house, when their house spot was open, and their driveway empty, I would be very aggressive in trying to have the owner of that road develop rules to protect me. I would also, if forced, become very aggressive, park behindthe other persons’ house every possible opportunity ... potentially leading to physical conflict ...

Net - I’m going to seek a legal opinion - our attorney is very level headed and competent. Will see what our options are.

And, btw, the offenders are profane bullies ... I hate bullies.




I honestly don't see what the big deal is as long as everyone has the use of their driveway and has a place to park. If the street spots aren't assigned, and I'm not seeing why they should be, they are fair game.

This is how it works in most dense urban areas -- street parking is first come, first serve (with exceptions for things like disability spaces), and if someone parks in front of your home, you just park in front of someone else's.

What am I missing here? Why do people care so much about this?

CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:338


08/07/2019 7:45 AM  
Adding to what others have said, it's a good idea that George is going to talk to a lawyer about this. However, keep in mind that a lawyer is not impartial: he'll make money if the HOA employs him to go after The Parking Jerk whether or not this benefits the HOA.

Too bad the affected neighbor isn't entitled to a handicapped space - that would solve the problem, and legally too! :-)

Keep in mind that if the HOA goes after someone whose actions are annoying but not prohibited, there is a decent chance that person can successfully fight the HOA.

Parking is a problem in many communities, especially since many CC&Rs were written before everybody and his pet dog started driving SUVs and pickup trucks instead of sedans. In my experience, unless you're dealing with a community wide problem, the cost of curing a particular violation in terms of time, effort and money will far exceed any benefit to the community as a whole.


ND
(PA)

Posts:330


08/07/2019 8:04 AM  
Posted By TimM11 on 08/07/2019 7:34 AM
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/06/2019 4:32 PM
I dunno, John ... the very basis of having structure, like our POA, seems to lead one to a point where involvement to protect items of common interest from those that want to destroy the goodness and stability is a good thimg.

Again, if I lived in one of these 20 homes that back onto the POA, and I had a neighbor who continually parked behind my house, when their house spot was open, and their driveway empty, I would be very aggressive in trying to have the owner of that road develop rules to protect me. I would also, if forced, become very aggressive, park behindthe other persons’ house every possible opportunity ... potentially leading to physical conflict ...

Net - I’m going to seek a legal opinion - our attorney is very level headed and competent. Will see what our options are.

And, btw, the offenders are profane bullies ... I hate bullies.




I honestly don't see what the big deal is as long as everyone has the use of their driveway and has a place to park. If the street spots aren't assigned, and I'm not seeing why they should be, they are fair game.

This is how it works in most dense urban areas -- street parking is first come, first serve (with exceptions for things like disability spaces), and if someone parks in front of your home, you just park in front of someone else's.

What am I missing here? Why do people care so much about this?




I honestly don't understand either.
In dense, urban areas, it seems well understood that nobody has a right to any specific spots along the street (except those specifically designated).
However, in suburban areas and neighbors, there's this false sense of "ownership" of the spot(s) directly adjacent to one's property. The OP's exact situation occurs where people get mad when someone parks in front of their house.
I say it's a terrible idea to foster this false "ownership" mindset by instituting rules.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:338


08/07/2019 8:33 AM  
>>I dunno, John ... the very basis of having structure, like our POA, seems to lead one to a point where involvement to protect items of common interest from those that want to destroy the goodness and stability is a good thimg. <<

I'm just musing here, so feel free to ignore, but it occurs to me that this thread has become a good illustration of the difference in perspective between a new board member and those with experience.

Some things I learned:

* Limitations of the CC&Rs

HOA governing documents tend to promote harmonious living, but they are not a cure all. In particular they are not effective against annoying behavior that is not a violation of the CC&Rs. In fact, if a board decides to go after someone for something that isn't prohibited, that person would probably be justified in taking action against the HOA.

Just 'cause you don't like it doesn't mean there is a good way to fix it.

* Pick Your Battles

Some problems are more annoying than others, but a board member's level of annoyance should not determine the seriousness of the problem or whether anything should be done about it. In addition, if you waste your time fighting battles you can't win, you won't have enough energy and resources left to fight the ones you can win.

Once a board has decided to enforce a particular rule, they will lose credibility if they can't succeed or if the problem gets worse. Nobody will thank you for your efforts if things go well, and you'll be hung out to dry if they don't (and sometimes even if they do).

Nobody likes to live in a police state (except maybe those who like to pretend they're the police).

* "Jerks Gonna Jerk." -- (probably not) Taylor Swift

One of the most frustrating things for a board member to deal with it is The Jerk. The power seems to be all in The Jerk's hands. The consequences of his behavior fall disproportionately on those around him and rarely on him. The board has legal, ethical, and monetary constraints on their actions, but The Jerk is limited only by his own whims.

Sadly, many jerks and bullies only cease and desist when they encounter someone who can impose unpleasant consequences on their actions (ie, a Bigger Jerk).

Jerks are often motivated by the turmoil and anger they cause around them, and getting to fight the board is a win. When I was on the board, we made sure that our interactions with A Jerk were as dull and uninteresting as possible and generally in writing, so that the person got zero emotional benefit from acting up.

** Things Can Always Get Worse **
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3123


08/07/2019 12:53 PM  
Posted By CathyA3 on 08/07/2019 8:33 AM
Nobody likes to live in a police state (except maybe those who like to pretend they're the police).

I think that's not true, I think most people have no problem with that. Too much eveidence to the contrary.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8550


08/07/2019 1:01 PM  
George

It seems the general thinking is it is not an HOA problem. The BOD should stay away from it.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/07/2019 1:54 PM  
So, this part of a response got my attention ..."Keep in mind that if the HOA goes after someone whose actions are annoying but not prohibited, there is a decent chance that person can successfully fight the HOA." - I agree, which is the reason I am treading cautiously. Interestingly, several seemed OK with rules being enforced that apparently already exist, but are not supportive of developing new rules that would be much like the rules that are already exist in some neighborhoods.

And, not my first rodeo ... the reason I am treading cautiously and will involve legal counsel as we address the issue.

I suppose my perspective might be a bit different than some - I'm OK with that and understand the various perspectives. Mine is, not to sound like a broken record, that HOA/POA/COA exist to combine funds to build and maintain communities - that parking is part of a community - and, that broadly speaking, just because there are bullies (I like The Parking Jerk name, btw) that are a PITA, it doesn't mean we avoid them or the difficulty of dealing with situations involving them. To me, it is just something to put on the list of stuff to do.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:338


08/07/2019 2:20 PM  
I'll be very interested to see how this all works out. I hope you'll post periodic updates and let us know what has worked for you and what hasn't.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8550


08/07/2019 2:43 PM  
George

It is obvious you are still looking for way to insert the association into the issue when most old hands out here are saying stay away.

Be well.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1262


08/07/2019 7:37 PM  
John,

I am investigating the application of the same sort of parking rules that exist in many HOA/POA/COAs. Nothing more.

If I can find a way to improve the situation and the attorney and Board agree, I may poll the 20 owners to see what they think ... just the mention of this may be enough help everyone consider the advantages of being a kind neighbor.

I still kinda like the No Parking at Any Time solution :-)

But, my personal approach would be to buy two more cars. Park my current cars in the garage, and park one of the cars adjacent to my property, and park the other one adjacent to The Parking Jerk’s property.
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Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Embedded Private Road inside Public Roads POA - parking squabbles



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