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Subject: Contract expired, but
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BillB17
(South Carolina)

Posts:57


06/01/2019 3:30 PM  
Our Association employs a pool maintenance contractor to service all the needs of our community pool. We are beginning to have some performance issues which we need to address with them.

When I went to review the contract to see what responsibilities and duties are spelled out, I found that it has actually expired. It was a three year contract from Jan 2016 to Jan 2019 with no automatic renewal provision. Apparently this contract fell through the cracks when our BOD did their service contracts review last fall. So our Association did nothing to renew the contract nor did the pool maintenance contractor raise the issue with the Association.

Therefore, for the last 5 months our pool maintenance contractor has been performing the work and we have been paying for the service.

We need to address the performance shortfalls we are experiencing, but we have no contract in place under which to do so.

I do not know how this would play out legally. Can it be assumed that since both parties are still performing their duties - they are working and we are paying - that there is a mutual understanding that the contract is still in place although formally it has expired.

Help!!
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8503


06/01/2019 4:07 PM  
I would akin this to what happens when a lease runs out. It tends to then go "Month to Month". Which now that the contract has expired may give you more leadway in negotiating. No longer tied down to a 30 day etc... termination clause. This should free your HOA up to finding another contractor ASAP.

Would advise NOT to ever do a multi-year contracts. 1 year only is best practice. Not that you can't renew a contract with the same company. It just lets you both negotiate new terms/services every year. May not save any money but it does allow one to make adjustments or give raises as needed.

When I took office we had multiple complaints about our lawncare person. Many people wanted to get rid of him. He just so happened to be a HOA member and lived in the neighborhood. (Plus he was the former President's drug dealer...) I had to go through a few years of paperwork to find the original contract. It turns out the former President had signed a contract with him to start mowing a month later than most lawn contracts start. (May - October). So when I fired him, I had to pay him an additional month and the new contractor their new month since they overlapped. So in your case you may not have such an overlap. Which is good as we had to fork out several extra hundred dollars not in the budget...

Former HOA President
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/01/2019 4:20 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/01/2019 4:07 PM
I would akin this to what happens when a lease runs out. It tends to then go "Month to Month". Which now that the contract has expired may give you more leadway in negotiating. No longer tied down to a 30 day etc... termination clause. This should free your HOA up to finding another contractor ASAP.




No, that's not necessarily the case at all. How it would play out legally would depend on the terms of the contract and the parties' performance.

MelissaP1, don't play lawyer.

RichardP13


Posts:0


06/01/2019 4:23 PM  
Melissa, for god's sake, don't play anything!
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/01/2019 4:33 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 06/01/2019 4:23 PM
Melissa, for god's sake, don't play anything!




Agreed. It's best for people to stick with what they know. Unfortunately in my case that's very little!
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8503


06/01/2019 4:52 PM  
I wasn't playing lawyer (like some). Just saying the contract time constraints no longer in place if they expired. May have to give a 30 days notice to terminate but otherwise it's expired. Create a new contract or get a new contractor.

Former HOA President
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/01/2019 5:00 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/01/2019 4:52 PM
I wasn't playing lawyer (like some). Just saying the contract time constraints no longer in place if they expired. May have to give a 30 days notice to terminate but otherwise it's expired. Create a new contract or get a new contractor.




That is a false statement.

Original poster, ignore it.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/01/2019 5:06 PM  
To add, for the original poster:

To give guidance on this situation, a lawyer would need to review the full contract and see all communications that have taken place between the HOA and the contractor. If you're going to look for legal guidance online, try lawyers.com or another legal website.

MelissaP1 is not a lawyer and her statements above are false and I would not give weight to them.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8503


06/01/2019 5:31 PM  
I have never ever proclaimed to be a lawyer nor would I give legal advice. My advice was based on EXPERIENCE. It was never given in any way to indicate "Legal". It's just contract expired why not stop the contract or get a new one? My cell phone contract expired 10 years ago. I still have the same cell phone company with no contract with them. If I were to sign a new contract, it would be new terms/conditions. Simple as that. I choose not to be under contract. There's no law that says I must be under contract to have services provided to me.

Former HOA President
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/01/2019 5:35 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/01/2019 5:31 PM
I have never ever proclaimed to be a lawyer nor would I give legal advice. My advice was based on EXPERIENCE. It was never given in any way to indicate "Legal". It's just contract expired why not stop the contract or get a new one? My cell phone contract expired 10 years ago. I still have the same cell phone company with no contract with them. If I were to sign a new contract, it would be new terms/conditions. Simple as that. I choose not to be under contract. There's no law that says I must be under contract to have services provided to me.




Your input in this thread is pure garbage and should be ignored. The original poster's situation is highly fact-specific, depending on the terms of the contract and communications and other performance by the parties.


JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/01/2019 5:35 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/01/2019 5:31 PM
I have never ever proclaimed to be a lawyer nor would I give legal advice. My advice was based on EXPERIENCE. It was never given in any way to indicate "Legal". It's just contract expired why not stop the contract or get a new one? My cell phone contract expired 10 years ago. I still have the same cell phone company with no contract with them. If I were to sign a new contract, it would be new terms/conditions. Simple as that. I choose not to be under contract. There's no law that says I must be under contract to have services provided to me.




Your input in this thread is pure garbage and should be ignored. The original poster's situation is highly fact-specific, depending on the terms of the contract and communications and other performance by the parties.


JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/01/2019 5:40 PM  
Original poster, try:

https://www.lawyers.com/

Then click on Ask a Lawyer.

If I were you, I would cite the termination and survival provisions of the contract, and describe the communications and performance of the parties post-termination, when you ask the question.

MelissaP1 makes a show about being a "Former HOA President". In my opinion, she probably also got an A once, in third grade, and has that report card framed on her bedroom wall (in her parents' house), or maybe gloats today about having been on her kindergarten's honor role; such were the high points in her life. Ignore everything she says in this thread, as it's irrelevant.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8503


06/01/2019 7:44 PM  
Said by the most irrelevant person on this thread...

This is a FREE advice site. Take it or leave it. We are here to help and not name call.

Again. Call the pool company and see if they want to continue the contract or sign a new one. That isn't that complicated or needs legal advice. I say it's an opportunity to find another contractor. That is my advice. Like it or not. I am not offended. It's free and based on my own experience with dealing with contractors and even being one myself.

Former HOA President
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:3177


06/01/2019 11:44 PM  
I would say, Bill, run the "expired" contract by your association attorney just to make sure there are no "gotchas" and you really are clear of any obligations. Then tell the current/expired contractor you're planning to get bids for a pool service and if he intends to submit a bid then he should be aware that the association has not been pleased with his work lately. Tell him why and suggest you'll be looking unfavorably on his bid unless he can provide assurances that your issues will be effectively addressed. IF he gets the contract.

Then go out and actually solicit some bids. You could actually find someone else who's better. All vendors who provide services should be made to work for your business. You should also consider a 2-year contract next since it sounds like a 3-year deal may have caused them to get complacent.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 3:45 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/01/2019 7:44 PM
Said by the most irrelevant person on this thread...

This is a FREE advice site. Take it or leave it. We are here to help and not name call.

Again. Call the pool company and see if they want to continue the contract or sign a new one. That isn't that complicated or needs legal advice. I say it's an opportunity to find another contractor. That is my advice. Like it or not. I am not offended. It's free and based on my own experience with dealing with contractors and even being one myself.




More false statements.

MelissaP1, you don’t know much about contracts but you should at least know that once a contract passes its expiration date, whether it applies and/or can be revived depends, once again, on things such as its exact terms and the parties’ conduct.

OP, don’t listen to MelissaP1; her advice is so poor that it’s dangerous. Ask a lawyer, not someone who plays one and then denies that she’s playing one after she gave advice about contract analysis.

MelissaP1, so you’re a former president. So was Richard Nixon.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3658


06/02/2019 4:13 AM  
We signed a 3-year trash/recycle contract for the years 2013-2015. Same rate for all three years.

For 2016, they never approached us to sign a new contract. But they kept billing at the same rate.

In 2017, they got acquired. The new company kept billing us at the same rate. They cut us down from 2x per week to 1x per week. But we're still paying the same rate as we did in 2013.

After the acquisition, we got quotes from other contractors. Based on the prices we got, we decided to keep running without a contract.

The fact that we don't have a current contract doesn't stop us from letting them know when they skip a house or make too much noise or show up too early.

There is a legal concepts called "implied contract." There can be a legally-binding obligation that derives from the actions, conduct, or circumstances of one or more parties in an agreement. It is assumed to exist, and no written or verbal confirmation is necessary.

"Implied contract" would apply to our situation. But we're never going to court over it. So who cares. If we're unhappy with performance, we let our current contractor know. There are plenty of contractors who will be glad to get the business if we decide to make a change.


Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8503


06/02/2019 5:24 AM  
I am going to step away from this as no need for people to not act professional here. Genos and NPS are giving good advice. They are well experienced as well. Seems their advice is within scope of the situation.

For the OP... There's been a disagreement with Richard and Johns111 whom seem to have to cross lines between being professional grown ups and little boys whom a girl played with their toys. It's okay. Richard is an MC and Johns111 came her pretending to be a lawyer. Called them out on their advice myself before. Hurt their egos and now they want to take things to a personal level. I am sorry others have to see that. It's not fair to the purpose of this forum. That is to HELP people with their HOA by sharing our experiences. I am going to keep doing that regardless. The bigger picture isn't who holds the better "advice" but who can help get one in or out of the right direction. Thank you. (Nixon wasn't a bad president till the tapes came out...)

Former HOA President
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 6:11 AM  
OP, MelissaP1 goes around claiming authority and knowledge as “Former HOA President” and gives faulty and dangerous advice about many fields that she knows nothing about. I have to alert people to the danger of her uninformed drivel, so I have to stand up to her.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 6:19 AM  
Also, to add, typically I ignore MelissaP1, but I was alerted to her giving out advice here that could be dangerous, so I spoke up. Please note that the issues that she dealt with in her low-income community are probably not the same as those that educated and higher-income posters would deal with, so her advice can be ignored generally.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:772


06/02/2019 6:32 AM  
First off John, Melissa is 110% correct. Our board just terminated a service providers contract earlier than the 30 day notice. Why? W gave 30days notice and half-way through the 30 days they refused to respond to service calls. The board decided to terminate them on the spot for breach of contract.


To the poster with your original question. Call your local health department and file a complaint. Nearly all pool maintenance companies are licensed through the health department.
Maybe an inspector can light a fire under someones behind..

If all else fails, run for a seat on the board.
AugustinD


Posts:1905


06/02/2019 6:38 AM  
I do not see anything way off or flat-out wrong with what MelissaP1 posted in this thread. I agree with MelissaP1 and others that this is not that complicated.

The OP wanted to address shortfalls. BillB17, can you explain what these shortfalls are? I think chances are good that, since your HOA paid the contractor these last few months, and the contractor did some kind of work, then as NpS wrote, there is an implied contract. It's entirely possible the contractor will correct the shortfalls. The Board should just call the contractor up and have a discussion. Start the conversation with something like, "The HOA and you currently have no contract. If you want to continue, the HOA needs you to remedy the following... "

For the record, I have seen a number of accounts of laypeople at HOAs successfully correcting significant legal mistakes by their HOAs' attorneys. Homeowners' association law and condo law are specialized areas. One had better know covenants, the statutes and related case law well. Many attorneys take on representation of a HOA not knowing these very well. The addage, 'A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client' dates to the early 1800s, before the internet and before courthouses opened filings to the public. On simpler matters, I have seen a competent layperson do just fine without an attorney.
AugustinD


Posts:1905


06/02/2019 6:47 AM  
Posted By JohnS111 on 06/02/2019 6:19 AM
Please note that the issues that she dealt with in her low-income community are probably not the same as those that educated and higher-income posters would deal with, so her advice can be ignored generally.


I have not seen any evidence that Melissa's community is low income. Furthermore, I do not see much of a distinction between lower end and higher end HOAs when it comes to maintaining infrastructure, contracting, collecting assessments, and more. If distinctions are to be made from one HOA to another, I'd say the distinctions are a result more of budget size and membership size.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8650


06/02/2019 7:14 AM  
Bill

It is not uncommon for a contract to have a fixed length, such as one year, when first entered in to. Most contracts say it then becomes a month to month with either party being able to cancel with no penalty.

We have been operating this way with our MC and Landscaper for the past 2 years. Meaning we signed the original one year contract some 3 years ago and have never signed anything else. They have not raised their prices.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 8:48 AM  
Posted By LetA on 06/02/2019 6:32 AM
First off John, Melissa is 110% correct. Our board just terminated a service providers contract earlier than the 30 day notice. Why? W gave 30days notice and half-way through the 30 days they refused to respond to service calls. The board decided to terminate them on the spot for breach of contract.


To the poster with your original question. Call your local health department and file a complaint. Nearly all pool maintenance companies are licensed through the health department.
Maybe an inspector can light a fire under someones behind..

If all else fails, run for a seat on the board.




Melissa is 110% wrong.

Again, how an expired contract is treated depends on its terms and the actions of the parties. There are zillions of different contracts. One contract is not the same as another.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 8:52 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2019 6:38 AM
I do not see anything way off or flat-out wrong with what MelissaP1 posted in this thread. I agree with MelissaP1 and others that this is not that complicated.

The OP wanted to address shortfalls. BillB17, can you explain what these shortfalls are? I think chances are good that, since your HOA paid the contractor these last few months, and the contractor did some kind of work, then as NpS wrote, there is an implied contract. It's entirely possible the contractor will correct the shortfalls. The Board should just call the contractor up and have a discussion. Start the conversation with something like, "The HOA and you currently have no contract. If you want to continue, the HOA needs you to remedy the following... "

For the record, I have seen a number of accounts of laypeople at HOAs successfully correcting significant legal mistakes by their HOAs' attorneys. Homeowners' association law and condo law are specialized areas. One had better know covenants, the statutes and related case law well. Many attorneys take on representation of a HOA not knowing these very well. The addage, 'A man who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client' dates to the early 1800s, before the internet and before courthouses opened filings to the public. On simpler matters, I have seen a competent layperson do just fine without an attorney.




It’s not that complicated but it depends on the actual terms of the contract and the parties’ conduct.

To give “this is the way it is” advice based on one post on a message board, without ever having seen the agreement itself and based on one post, is very dangerous.

The OP should ask a lawyer at lawyers.com or in real life.

Again, Melissa knows nothing and going with her advice in this situation could, for example, lead to the OP being stuck with a contract, or unprotected by contract.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 8:58 AM  
Here is some feedback on this type of situation from a real lawyer (not some idiot like MelissaP1). OP, you can also Google “revive expired contract” and see what real lawyers (not know-it-alls who are actually know-nothings like Melissa) say. There are some risks with just proceeding:

https://www.adamsdrafting.com/reviving-a-contract-after-its-term-has-ended/

To add, my issue with Melissa arose in a thread when she saw that a poster was African-American and was harassing him and giving bad advice. The African-American poster said that Melissa is a racist and thought that her advice was bad.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8503


06/02/2019 9:00 AM  
LetA, just fair warning on reporting to the health department. If there is a violation, it's most likely not going to be held against the contractor but the HOA. The HOA is ultimately responsible for the pool. They do this by hiring the pool contractor. I wouldn't jump to reporting to the Health Department as an option but it is an option. Think the Health department is a good resource to follow up with.

My neighbor has a neglected pool. Our county's pool inspection department is overwhelmed. So it takes time for them to come out. My next door neighbor reported them to the Health Department due to mosquitos. They responded and the neighbor did install a proper fence and cleaned the pool.

However, keep in mind the owner of the pool in the OP's case is the HOA. So they may come in and demand a few more compliances. Which may be a good thing to add/negotiate into a new contract or contractor. I don't see a reason why can not re-negotiate the terms or cancel altogether. We did same thing with our pool contractor on more than 1 occasion.


My only concern is if this contractor is hired through the MC or separately by the HOA. If it's through the MC, I'd make sure there isn't a clause that says the MC is responsible for all contractor hiring/contracts. Otherwise, it's something the HOA can change and just tell the MC the new contractor's name.




Former HOA President
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8503


06/02/2019 9:17 AM  
Again, my apologies for the blatant attack on me Melissa Former HOA President. It's not what people come here for and regret it has to be part of the "conversation". I feel the posters here who come for help deserve better and more respect than that. We aren't here for another HOA board meeting... LOL! We are here to make our HOA better and maybe just maybe be on our HOA board.

The regular posters here (Notice the large posting #'s) have worked very hard to make this a place where people can come for advice and education. We didn't know "everything" when we started in our HOA's. It was hard fought work, sweat, aggravation, learning, tears, and failures. Mad respect for my other fellow posters willing to come here to help those who want to learn without judgement, name calling, or made to feel like they can't ask a question. A question unasked is an answer your never going to get.

I am far from perfect. First to admit that. Johns111 is upset with me because I am the first one to call him out for posting he was a lawyer. I questioned his ethics and his claim of being a lawyer. As you can see from his repeated posts and responses to others, it's not something I need to question any more. It's kind of obvious the answer...

So thank you for coming here and asking questions. We will do the best we can to help. It's free advice based on what our experiences. I will never claim lawyer but will recommend the best way of hiring/dealing with a lawyer. Which is the best I can do as I don't practice law nor claim to. Have a great day!

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:1905


06/02/2019 9:33 AM  
JohnS111, for what it is worth:

-- Online, I try to give each new person a fresh start with each new thread.

-- I remain disappointed with any remark about a HOA memberships' alleged income level, made in derision. To me, it is as bad as a racial or sexist epitaph.

-- On April 14, you posted that you are an attorney. I have found attorneys feel they have a professional obligation to tell laypeople, who have a question that even remotely touches on the law, to retain an attorney. Else the attorney will feel there is a risk that some sort of attorney-client relationship will kick in, and the attorney subsequently is subject to a number of legal obligations. I continue to feel the OP does not need an attorney at this time.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 10:04 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2019 9:33 AM
JohnS111, for what it is worth:

-- Online, I try to give each new person a fresh start with each new thread.

-- I remain disappointed with any remark about a HOA memberships' alleged income level, made in derision. To me, it is as bad as a racial or sexist epitaph.

-- On April 14, you posted that you are an attorney. I have found attorneys feel they have a professional obligation to tell laypeople, who have a question that even remotely touches on the law, to retain an attorney. Else the attorney will feel there is a risk that some sort of attorney-client relationship will kick in, and the attorney subsequently is subject to a number of legal obligations. I continue to feel the OP does not need an attorney at this time.




Augustin, the OP does not need to retain an attorney. I never stated that retaining an attorney is necessary.

I specifically listed lawyers.com, a free website, as one resource that the OP could use, as all I stated was (in summary) that the OP should check with a real lawyer, not MelissaP1, either online or in real life. The OP should check with a lawyer (online or otherwise), which is not the same as retaining one, because how to handle the OP’s contract is so fact-specific and because going with nonsensical advice on a message board could create big problems for the OP.

Yes, lawyers make mistakes. But nonlawyers giving legal advice (however they call it) often leads to poor outcomes.

It’s MelissaP1 who was expressly labeled a racist by an African-American poster.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 10:10 AM  
And let me recap:

I am standing up against MelissaP1 because she is giving baseless advice, without relevant knowledge, and because following that advice could be very dangerous for the original poster.

That’s it.

Every other issue that I have with her is secondary.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 10:19 AM  
And to add: MelissaP1 makes all sorts of stupid and nonsensical claims, calling me an “ambulance chaser”, questioning my ethics, etc. I don’t care one bit since those statements just support my view that she knows nothing and gives terrible advice. I hope that she continues her attacks on me, since they show what a moron she is.

Again: my issue with her is that her advice is often garbage that is not based on any knowledge, and following it is dangerous.
RichardP13


Posts:0


06/02/2019 10:26 AM  
In California, having a multi year contract would be illegal unless the company, generally utility companies, are regulated by the Public Utility Commission. Several on this post have stated multi year contracts are OK without checking what the state may say.

Every state is going to have it own set of restrictive guidelines, some stricter than others. Rules are going to based on the general makeup of the state legislative body, which today is tilted to one side. It will look out for consumers or homeowners rather than big bad HOA corporations. We have 40 million people, more HOA's than any other, the world's 5th largest economy. We must be doing something right.

Many of us when responding to questions will take the time to do some research as to what the poster's individual state will allow rather than just say, "this is what I did in my HOA".
AugustinD


Posts:1905


06/02/2019 11:11 AM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 06/02/2019 10:26 AM
In California, having a multi year contract would be illegal unless the company, generally utility companies, are regulated by the Public Utility Commission.


I see no California statute nor case law prohibiting HOAs from engaging in multi-year contracts. The Davis-Stirling site at https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Multi-Year-Contract says similar.

John, just attack me at the same time as you attack Melissa, since I do not find her suggestions to the OP to be off-base.


Correction to my prior post: epithet, not epitaph.
RichardP13


Posts:0


06/02/2019 11:22 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2019 11:11 AM
Posted By RichardP13 on 06/02/2019 10:26 AM
In California, having a multi year contract would be illegal unless the company, generally utility companies, are regulated by the Public Utility Commission.


I see no California statute nor case law prohibiting HOAs from engaging in multi-year contracts. The Davis-Stirling site at https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Multi-Year-Contract says similar.

John, just attack me at the same time as you attack Melissa, since I do not find her suggestions to the OP to be off-base.


Correction to my prior post: epithet, not epitaph.



It is in CCRs and from California DRE.

From Melissa, (Nixon wasn't a bad president till the tapes came out...) You're not a crook until you get caught.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 11:30 AM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2019 11:11 AM
Posted By RichardP13 on 06/02/2019 10:26 AM
In California, having a multi year contract would be illegal unless the company, generally utility companies, are regulated by the Public Utility Commission.


I see no California statute nor case law prohibiting HOAs from engaging in multi-year contracts. The Davis-Stirling site at https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Multi-Year-Contract says similar.

John, just attack me at the same time as you attack Melissa, since I do not find her suggestions to the OP to be off-base.


Correction to my prior post: epithet, not epitaph.




I’m not interested in attacking you.

If you want to see how off-base Melissa’s terrible advice is, show it to a lawyer in real lif
BillB17
(South Carolina)

Posts:57


06/02/2019 12:41 PM  
Thanks to all for your insight and experience. I think I have gleaned enough information from all of you to believe that we are in an implied contract situation.

HOA Talk has always been a valuable resource for me in HOA matters, especially serving on a BOD. Information provided has always been good and even when one poster disagreed with another, the disagreement has always been explained in a respectful manner. Not necessarily the case here.

I will continue to use this site as a valuable tool, hoping that this is a one off posting.

Respectfully,

Bill

AugustinD


Posts:1905


06/02/2019 2:39 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 06/02/2019 11:22 AM
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2019 11:11 AM
Posted By RichardP13 on 06/02/2019 10:26 AM
In California, having a multi year contract would be illegal unless the company, generally utility companies, are regulated by the Public Utility Commission.


I see no California statute nor case law prohibiting HOAs from engaging in multi-year contracts. The Davis-Stirling site at https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Multi-Year-Contract says similar.



It is in CCRs and from California DRE.


You indicated California prohibits multi-year contracts. This is different from an individual HOA's covenants prohibiting such contracts. Sometimes covenants have such a prohibition; sometimes not. California's Department of Real Estate has no such prohibition. Nor does the state of California.
AugustinD


Posts:1905


06/02/2019 2:47 PM  
Posted By JohnS111 on 06/02/2019 11:30 AM
<
If you want to see how off-base Melissa’s terrible advice is, show it to a lawyer in real lif[e]


As opposed to a self-proclaimed online "lawyer" like yourself.

My esteem for James Carville similarly fell when he declared, "Drag a hundred-dollar bill through a trailer park, you never know what you'll find."
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 2:51 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2019 2:47 PM
Posted By JohnS111 on 06/02/2019 11:30 AM
<
If you want to see how off-base Melissa’s terrible advice is, show it to a lawyer in real lif[e]


As opposed to a self-proclaimed online "lawyer" like yourself.

My esteem for James Carville similarly fell when he declared, "Drag a hundred-dollar bill through a trailer park, you never know what you'll find."




Austin, I have no qualms with you whatsoever. No need for us to argue.

The answer to James Carville's statement would be, "MelissaP1".
AugustinD


Posts:1905


06/02/2019 3:02 PM  
Posted By JohnS111 on 06/02/2019 2:51 PM
The answer to James Carville's statement would be, "MelissaP1".


Your contempt for people who may be low income probably matches my chagrin with people who falsely hold themselves out to be an attorney on internet forums.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 3:12 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2019 3:02 PM
Posted By JohnS111 on 06/02/2019 2:51 PM
The answer to James Carville's statement would be, "MelissaP1".


Your contempt for people who may be low income probably matches my chagrin with people who falsely hold themselves out to be an attorney on internet forums.




Not so- I spend multiple hours per month volunteering in a homeless shelter.

My point about Melissa being low-income is a valid, non-judging one. She has stated that she lives in a community without amenities and with "affordable housing". Things such as pools, clubhouses, expensive maintenance and other things in higher-income communities wouldn't apply to her community and she wouldn't have experience with them. She'll of course deny that now, but you can search her posts.

I do think that it is acceptable- and totally valid- to stand up against people who are alleged racists, such as MelissaP1, though.


JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 3:14 PM  
To add, I've expressly stated that there is no lawyer-client relationship between anyone online and me, and nothing that I state online should be considered legal advice.

So for purposes of this board, I'm not acting as a lawyer.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8503


06/02/2019 3:47 PM  
BillB glad your not leaving us. I am sorry. Agree with you that most of the time we can "Agree to disagree". It's free advice. Take it as you will or at will...

Wow. I just found out that I lived in a "Poor" HOA and area. Who knew? Find that funny and completely made up. A HOA is a HOA. Nothing more and nothing less.

Former HOA President
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 3:55 PM  
Well, Melissa, when you live in a low-income area in Alabama, where everyone is like you, you may not realize your deprivation.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8503


06/02/2019 4:15 PM  
I am starting to feel kind of complimented by all this attention Johns111 has for me. It's kind of sweet. He thinks I am smart. (Know it all). He notices don't hang out with just anyone. (Racist as been reported by another poster but not him...) He is concerned about my finances. (Poor HOA). He constantly points out my advice but denies he reads any of it. (Just ignore her advice). He even thinks I could have been President of the United States! (Richard Nixon?).

Thank you Johns111. The posters here are getting the full picture. Thank you for taking the time out to notice a poor redneck girl like me. It means a lot. Got to go get a beer out the fridge and wait for the tornado's to tear up my trailer again. Maybe this time national news! Bless your heart



Former HOA President
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 4:18 PM  
Great, MelissaP1. Just be sure to save your third-grade report card. It shows that you got an A on something in third grade, which was clearly the high point in your life.

I didn't mean to disparage others in Alabama by comparing them to you. Unlike you, they aren't racists, regardless of income level.
AugustinD


Posts:1905


06/02/2019 4:20 PM  
Posted By JohnS111 on 06/02/2019 3:12 PM
Not so- I spend multiple hours per month volunteering in a homeless shelter.


I will accept that this means you generally do not have contempt for low income folks when you accept that Melissa having been a founding member of her college's black student alliance means she is generally not a racist.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 4:24 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2019 4:20 PM
Posted By JohnS111 on 06/02/2019 3:12 PM
Not so- I spend multiple hours per month volunteering in a homeless shelter.


I will accept that this means you generally do not have contempt for low income folks when you accept that Melissa having been a founding member of her college's black student alliance means she is generally not a racist.




She is white. She has posted that before, including above where she refers to herself as a "redneck" (as mockery). Only when the African-American poster stated that she is a racist did she make up the story about her BSA.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 4:28 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2019 4:20 PM
Posted By JohnS111 on 06/02/2019 3:12 PM
Not so- I spend multiple hours per month volunteering in a homeless shelter.


I will accept that this means you generally do not have contempt for low income folks when you accept that Melissa having been a founding member of her college's black student alliance means she is generally not a racist.




And it was an African-American poster who, based on Melissa's harassment, stated that she is a racist.

I'll defer to someone who is African-American for a determination as to whether a white person is or is not a racist. An African-American poster stated that she is a racist. I'm not going to question his judgment; to do so would be to trivialize racial injustice and dismiss African-American perspectives.
AugustinD


Posts:1905


06/02/2019 4:37 PM  
Posted By JohnS111 on 06/02/2019 4:24 PM
Only when the African-American poster stated that she is a racist did she make up the story about her BSA.


Hm. Only when I indicated you have contempt for folks who are low income did you make up the story about volunteering in a homeless shelter.
JohnS111
(New York)

Posts:165


06/02/2019 4:40 PM  
It's a 100% true story. There was no need to bring it up otherwise.

I think we're done here.

Melissa is an uninformed racist.

I have no qualms with others.
AugustinD


Posts:1905


06/02/2019 4:46 PM  
Posted By JohnS111 on 06/02/2019 4:28 PM

I'll defer to someone who is African-American for a determination as to whether a white person is or is not a racist. An African-American poster stated that she is a racist. I'm not going to question his judgment; to do so would be to trivialize racial injustice and dismiss African-American perspectives.


I question the judgement of anyone who responds with a disgusting, sexual attack, as the OP did in the aforementioned case.

AFAIC, people are not simple.
NpS
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:3658


06/02/2019 4:57 PM  
Posted By NpS on 06/02/2019 4:13 AM
We signed a 3-year trash/recycle contract for the years 2013-2015. Same rate for all three years.

For 2016, they never approached us to sign a new contract. But they kept billing at the same rate.

In 2017, they got acquired. The new company kept billing us at the same rate. They cut us down from 2x per week to 1x per week. But we're still paying the same rate as we did in 2013.

After the acquisition, we got quotes from other contractors. Based on the prices we got, we decided to keep running without a contract.

The fact that we don't have a current contract doesn't stop us from letting them know when they skip a house or make too much noise or show up too early.

There is a legal concepts called "implied contract." There can be a legally-binding obligation that derives from the actions, conduct, or circumstances of one or more parties in an agreement. It is assumed to exist, and no written or verbal confirmation is necessary.

"Implied contract" would apply to our situation. But we're never going to court over it. So who cares. If we're unhappy with performance, we let our current contractor know. There are plenty of contractors who will be glad to get the business if we decide to make a change.




We never raise the issue that there is no contract. If we did, that would open the door to the current contractor saying that they need to increase fees by X%. Also, if we believe that we have an implied contract which we do, why would we say that there is no contract? For us, it's business as usual. No need to say more.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
BillB17
(South Carolina)

Posts:57


06/02/2019 5:06 PM  
Thanks to all for your insight and experience. I think I have gleaned enough information from all of you to believe that we are in an implied contract situation.

HOA Talk has always been a valuable resource for me in HOA matters, especially serving on a BOD. Information provided has always been good and even when one poster disagreed with another, the disagreement has always been explained in a respectful manner. Not necessarily the case here.

I will continue to use this site as a valuable tool, hoping that this is a one off posting.

Respectfully,

Bill

JohnT38
(South Carolina)

Posts:107


06/02/2019 7:07 PM  
Bill, if I had the authority to do so I would apologize to you on behalf of this community. Your question was hijacked by the actions of a few. It seems there are certain members of this forum that simply can't help but try and trash one another. Disagreeing is one thing but, taking cheap shots at each other over and over and over again is simply disgusting.

So much for "A positive place for community association leaders to share ideas and learn."
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8503


06/02/2019 8:46 PM  
You are right JohnT38. My apologies as well. Again, it was never my intentions to have this site anything but safe haven for people to ask questions. Living in a HOA is hard enough. We need to support each other.

Will apologize to Richard. Didn't mean to drag him into any of this. We don't always agree but I do respect to "agree to disagree". You do come from a different place being an MC than I do from being HOA board. So there will always be that perspective from each other.


As far as those false words and attacks against me, they hold no power over me. It's not what I am about nor anyone else here. It's an embarrassment and shameful someone had to bring those things into the conversation. I for one am truly apologetic that.

Former HOA President
RichardP13


Posts:0


06/02/2019 10:29 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 06/02/2019 4:46 PM
Posted By JohnS111 on 06/02/2019 4:28 PM

I'll defer to someone who is African-American for a determination as to whether a white person is or is not a racist. An African-American poster stated that she is a racist. I'm not going to question his judgment; to do so would be to trivialize racial injustice and dismiss African-American perspectives.


I question the judgement of anyone who responds with a disgusting, sexual attack, as the OP did in the aforementioned case.

AFAIC, people are not simple.



You need to give it a rest.
RichardP13


Posts:0


06/02/2019 10:32 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/02/2019 8:46 PM
You are right JohnT38. My apologies as well. Again, it was never my intentions to have this site anything but safe haven for people to ask questions. Living in a HOA is hard enough. We need to support each other.

Will apologize to Richard. Didn't mean to drag him into any of this. We don't always agree but I do respect to "agree to disagree". You do come from a different place being an MC than I do from being HOA board. So there will always be that perspective from each other.


As far as those false words and attacks against me, they hold no power over me. It's not what I am about nor anyone else here. It's an embarrassment and shameful someone had to bring those things into the conversation. I for one am truly apologetic that.



More than being a MC, I was also President of a rather large HOA and a homeowner trying to fix a bad HOA. Based on my experience, I would never live in an HOA again.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8503


06/03/2019 3:55 AM  
Agreed Richard... LOL! However, I will help those who have or have not had "HOA greatness" shoved upon them...

Former HOA President
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