SharonD
(California)
Posts:39
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| 04/01/2006 2:45 PM |
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| How difficult is it to dusband a small HOA? What are the steps we need to take. We are contatcing the HOA attorney. She will say it is costly etc etc etc...anyone know what the correct steps/procedures are ? |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3701
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| 04/01/2006 2:51 PM |
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| Sharon, it depends on what your Declaration says and if you have common area properties. Why are you considering it? You really need to read your Declaration, understand how difficult it will be, and realize how expensive it can be to every owner. |
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150 
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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BrianB
(California)
Posts:1741
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| 04/01/2006 7:26 PM |
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your CC&R's should have directions on how you can disband your board. However, Roger is right, the disposition of common areas is the toughest part.
my association is trying to disband as well, and are caught in a catch 22: the city says we have an agreement to keep the common areas maintained "in perpetuity". However, the only reason we even exist is to get dues to pay for trimming weeds. We could disband, but we can't sell the common areas. However, if we disbanded, then the city would have an agreement with an entity that no longer existed, and thus, it is null and void. But who would own the common areas then, if there is no association?
good luck with your quest, and be sure to report back here with your findings!
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HaroldS
(Arizona)
Posts:904
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| 04/02/2006 10:33 AM |
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Well Brian - Just quit paying the real estate taxes on your common area. That land has no value to anyone because it is probably deeded for storm retention.
This is where the cities get us by the short hairs. They demand that the developer install storm retention - which is usually the only common area for many HOAs, then demand he form an HOA to tax us to maintain it, all the while collecting taxes themselves from the same homeowners. Let the city take over the retention basin they required. |
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ScottN2
(California)
Posts:2
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| 04/02/2006 6:52 PM |
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Harold - you can't quit paying the RE taxes on the common area (at least we can't) as the taxes are prorated amongst the various homeowners. Our association (a non-profit) does not get taxed on the common area's.
I tried to get the county to take over our park (because we pay park fee's to them individually) but they wouldn't take it. Nor will they kick down any monies for maintenance.
It is a double fee situation but it is one we bought into. |
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HaroldS
(Arizona)
Posts:904
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| 04/02/2006 7:51 PM |
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| That's unusual. We are a non profit also, but the association pays RE taxes directly. We almost lost our common area becasue a fired MC never forwarded the tax bills to us or the new MC. So I talk from experience. If each of your owners pays a pro-rated RE tax on your common area - do they have a pro-rated ownership of the common area? I don't think I would like that situation. I'm at a loss to understand how a county can pro rate a tax to someone who doesn't own the property. Is this recorded in the deed? Harold |
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ScottN2
(California)
Posts:2
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| 04/02/2006 10:42 PM |
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I was concerned about not having any tax info when we were making up our budget for this year. I sent an email to the assesors office and the man replied with this explanation.
Interesting thought on the prorated ownership. I'll have to look into that one. Thanks. |
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DanC
(Colorado)
Posts:6
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| 04/15/2006 4:00 PM |
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In the case of my own HOA, we are required to exist. The fundamental legal responsibility of our HOA is the maintenance of the common areas. This is an agreement that the developer made with the city in that the city does not have to pay to maintain the drainage pond, mow the weeds, stain the fence that keeps the kids off of the RR tracks, etc. The HOA is required to take care of all of this in addition to the CCRs.
Contrast this with our neighbors to the North. They had a similar agreement with the city and an HOA. As time passed, no one wanted to serve on the HOA and many residents hated the HOA because their focus was on whining about garage doors being open, etc. - classic "bad HOA" stuff. Eventually the HOA folded. The city's response was to hire a property manager on behalf of the defunct HOA and that property manager now takes care of their drainage pond, weed mowing, etc. The cost of the property manager is paid by a special property tax assessment against the homeowners. This seems to work for them ... the assessment is less than the HOA was charging and they maintain compliance with the city by having a professional property manager. With this, the HOA isn't technically disbanded, they just exist enough to meet their legal obligations. |
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BrianB
(California)
Posts:1741
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| 04/15/2006 6:04 PM |
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My city claims a similar thing, that there is an agreement between the city and the HOA/Developer about maintaining our common areas in perpetuity. However, no one can show me said agreement. The city says they "have one", but we don't have anything in our paperwork about that, and the developer never gave us such an agreement.
Is it legal to enter into a contract, then pass that agreement onto others, without noting it? How could we have legally agreed to something that isn't written down anywhere? |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3701
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| 04/15/2006 6:23 PM |
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| Brian, have you read your Declaration? Such requirements are usually recorded in it. |
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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DanC
(Colorado)
Posts:6
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| 04/15/2006 7:05 PM |
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Precisely RogerB, and that's the rub. In the beginning stages of the development, the developer IS the HOA and they own all of the land and make negotiations of all sorts with the city, county, and state in exchange for the right to develop that land. When the developer leaves, they pass HOA control to the local HOA board of directors and the responsibility falls to them/us. Any homeowner buying a house in the development falls under the rules of the HOA and is therefore party to that same agreement. It really is quite a hell of thing; some of the things the developer and city agreed that I would do years later are troubling to say the least but are covered in the declarations and my realtor insists that I agreed to them when I bought my house :-).
My key point though is that disbanding an HOA is prohibitively expensive for most people even if everyone in the neighborhood agrees to it. If the HOA is not serving the community's needs, then whittling it down to a simple property manager as my distant neighbors have done is an attainable goal. |
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JulieS
(Georgia)
Posts:412
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| 05/01/2006 11:59 AM |
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The transfer of property from the developer to the association and related items should be recorded in the county deed book. Check the internet to see if your county has it posted.
Last spring during an 'uprising', someone in the neighborhood questioned that fact that the HOA owned small parcels of property in the neighborhood (dentention ponds, etc.). I checked our county's website and searched the developer, builder, association and individual homowners for the trail of property turn over and related items. |
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LuciusD
(Colorado)
Posts:139
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| 05/01/2006 6:31 PM |
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| This should be required reading for anyone even thinking about buying property in a common interest community. |
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KevinH
(Texas)
Posts:53
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| 05/09/2006 7:32 PM |
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I found the property manager scenario to be very informing. It is something we could possibly suggest to our city officials when trying to work out the details of disbanding and returning the property.
Disbanding generally requires the following:
1) Approval of 2/3 members (or whatever the magic number is for your association)
2) Doing all the paperwork or hiring an attorney to help file (we had been quoted around $3000).
Considering most HOAs have a maintenance fund, the "cost" to disband is minimal and most likely absorbed by it, until you deal with the city who seems to like to threaten to charge us 10 times the cost of lawn maintenance, etc if we fail to keep the area maintained.
Again, I agree, if it is not listed on my property as belonging to me, why should I have to pay for it. I imagine a lawyer may be able to help homeowners squeeze through that crack. But with the property manager option, that may not be necessary.
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If you cannot see the forest for the trees, back up and get a better view. Don't start to clear a path while still blind. |
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SharonD
(California)
Posts:39
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| 05/12/2006 4:47 PM |
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there is nothing in our declaration. The common areas are seven islands that go up the main street of the area. These islands consist of palm tress and oleanders. We pay "gardeners" to walk with rakes..they do not garden. The city took over our streets 29 years ago. We ahve no pools etc. Just these islands...Why is it expensive?
The board members have been told new reglations vcoming into effect are scarey (the past president quit but still runs our board. No one wants to take any of the positions so we have board memebers with no president, secretary or treasurer. There is no need for an HOA as we have nothing to maintain but sandy islands which maintain themselves |
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SharonD
(California)
Posts:39
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| 05/12/2006 4:48 PM |
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| our cc&r's say nothing. Common areas are center islands ging up the main street...sand, plam trees and oleanders: self maintaining. The city took over the street care 20 some years ago. |
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SharonD
(California)
Posts:39
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| 05/12/2006 4:48 PM |
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| our cc&r's say nothing. Common areas are center islands ging up the main street...sand, plam trees and oleanders: self maintaining. The city took over the street care 20 some years ago. |
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SharonD
(California)
Posts:39
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| 05/12/2006 4:53 PM |
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this sounds like ours...we have only islands that are "maintained by usuless gardeners...for top dollar ...there is only sand, oleanders and plam trees all of which take care of themselves.
Most residents hate the HOA...they do not follow the rules: sue only people they don't like enforce the rules aginst those they don't like etc etc. We have no pools, parks etc...just sand and desert landscape. |
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3701
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| 05/12/2006 8:33 PM |
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Sharon why are you wasting money doing this?
...we have only islands that are "maintained by usuless gardeners...for top dollar ...there is only sand, oleanders and plam trees all of which take care of themselves.
And why are the residents allowing this?
...they do not follow the rules: sue only people they don't like enforce the rules aginst those they don't like etc etc.
Why not correct the problems and reap the benefits of a good HOA? |
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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LuciusD
(Colorado)
Posts:139
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| 05/12/2006 9:02 PM |
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Roger,
Since 1955, I have lived in 13 single family residences in 6 states. I’ve owned 6 of the 13 properties and owned 3 rentals in addition. Right now, I live in my first property in an HOA. I can’t recall any time in the past fifty years having a need or desire a “good HOA” would have satisfied. I bought my present property for the property itself, not for the HOA. What a mistake!
I think as HOA’s go, we have a pretty good one. But I would be willing to step up and contribute as much as ten years of assessments to be rid of it.
In my not so humble opinion, anyone who has a chance to get rid of an HOA should “go for it”. Many of us are not that fortunate.
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RogerB
(Colorado)
Posts:3701
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| 05/13/2006 11:15 AM |
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Lou, my sister feels exactly like you. She has also had bad experiences with HOAs. However, I wonder, would you rather deal with a bad Board or have bad neighbors with no control. What if
the following develop next door? One adjacent neighbor lets their property become a trash dump, on the other side a noisy day care center suddenly starts operation, and tomorrow the house across the street is painted a vivid blue and/or orange (nutty Denver Broncos fans have actually done this).
A bad HOA Board can be controlled through the Declaration and other HOA documents. But what do you do if the above situations and there is no control? Move and suffer the discomforts of moving and take a financial loss on your home sale?
Obviously you know my answer and I think I know your feelings differ. I respect your feeling but respectfully disagree. |
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Roger Borcherding
Official HOATalk.com Sponsor
DARCO Property Management (Colorado)
(303) 925-0150
*See legal notice below (end of page) or go to www.hoatalk.com/legal |
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LuciusD
(Colorado)
Posts:139
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| 05/13/2006 12:28 PM |
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Roger,
I have not had the "HOA-from-hell" experience. Not at all.
As I said, I simply have yet to experience anything that justifies the arbitrary imposition of an unnecessary layer of private, poorly regulated, and marginally-competent government upon owners of individual residential properties. (Condo’s are something else.) Competent zoning has always been more than adequate. Of course, I have always supported diversity over conformity.
I absolutely support the right of a group of fully informed owners to agree to almost any level of arbitrary restrictions. But that is not what happens. Restrictions are IMPOSED by the developer, not agreed to (explicitly) by the buyer.
I am convinced that in apathetic HOA’s the majority of owners were never fully informed and if they were, they would have never agreed to the CCR’s imposed by the developer. As a consequence they are in an adversary relationship with the CCR’s and anyone trying to enforce them. If the overwhelming majority were in favor, “enforcement” would not be the watch-word, “compliance” would be. It seems to me the enforcers are always a minority who depend upon the power of “the covenants” rather than the consent of the governed.
I should never have spoken up on this one. I’m in the process of trying to prepare for an annual meeting that is in total compliance with SB-100 or -089 (which ever is in effect just over a week from now). I’d better stay away for a while.
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DanC
(Colorado)
Posts:6
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| 05/13/2006 3:01 PM |
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Sharon - Have you ever considered running for the board or even the president position? Your HOA sounds ripe for a coup. You could easily get the names and addresses of everyone in your neighborhood from the county records and draft a campaign from your word processor. I'm sure that the covenants must have a requirement for a president, so why not you?
You could state your concerns to everyone in the neighborhood and explain how you would solve them. This could include promising to reduce dues, fascism, and pointless rulemaking. Of course, you may want to attend a board meeting or two to make certain all of your allegations are accurate. If they are accurate, then it sounds like your HOA is like mine used to be - busybody housewives mad with power. SB100 helped a great deal with that and the entire board quit. The new board is much more well intentioned, but lacking in purpose. This is how HOA's fade away. As president you could guide the HOA to be productive and an asset to the community. It only takes a vote to be an HOA president; you don't need any qualifications or experience. If you can't make it productive, then you can help shut it down from the inside.
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SharonD
(California)
Posts:39
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| 05/13/2006 6:28 PM |
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according to the ex president and her girlfriend: the ex vice president: to use a property management company would cost each of us $300 a year. Current dues were doubled from $50 to $100....having attended these meetimgs and seen their purorted expenses...it is clear they double the dues to cover erroneous ecpenses: $1000 for office meetings(meetings are held at residents home and they provide beverages etc)...christmas decorations $200-$700 although they reuse the same ones....before this was done on a voluntary basis...
Why do you say it is exepensive to disband? |
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SharonD
(California)
Posts:39
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| 05/13/2006 6:41 PM |
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I am on the board. When the time limit to elect president etc came and went...at the next meeting I asked what was being done as the board is still being run by the ex president and her girlfriend (who also quit)...none of the board members want to take on the positions as the ex-president has given them ideas the new laws will make governing very difficult.
This woman and her girlfriend have totally dominated the board for 8 years....
I said I would take over the job as president as no one else wanted it...and the ex vice president said I was NOT PROFESSIONAL enough!!! These two women were previous neighbors of mine and they routinely trespassed on my property...vandalized my lighting and landscaping....long story. My husband and I stood up to these two women when they used their power over the board to sue us for a noncompliant fence although the City unnanimously approved the permit for the wall in a special archectectural committee meeting ......be advised no one has ever been sue in 45 years although many have violated the CC&R's. We won the lawsuit. The dislike/hatred thye have for me keeps me from being the board president, or vice or treasurer.
Over the years I have repeatedly asked for copies of minutes, explantions of their costs, and their response is "priviledged info"
Fact is the City took over our streets years ago. All we have is 11 islands, self maintained with sand, palm trees and oleanders (although supposedly we spend $800 amonth to have these ares maintained...when I who lives by the islands told board ,members we are not getting the services we pay for...I was shut down and told I had no knowledge to report this!!!! |
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DorothyH
(Florida)
Posts:23
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| 05/13/2006 6:48 PM |
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Every HOA is unique in its own way. It will only be successful if ALL
the members become involved in its operation and management. I mean
serving on the Board, working on committees and obeying the rules and
regulations of the Association and working together to maintain the value of your home or property..
I am going to quote or say what a judge said to a deliquent association
member in court one day. It is up to you to know what you are buying
into before you sign on the dotted line.
A HOA or POA is only as good as the people running it and its members.
DorothyH |
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DanC
(Colorado)
Posts:6
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| 05/13/2006 7:36 PM |
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Agreed - It is up to you to know what you are buying
into before you sign on the dotted line. On the other hand, that has very little to do with HOA's. What you agreed to at purchase time may not be at all what life is like years later. The simple example of a HOA member not paying his dues was an open and shut case. He clearly agreed to pay and did not. That is quite different from the HOA woes I've had and what Sharon is describing that lead to Colorado's SB100 and other measures such as that HOA on the east coast being taken to court under the RICO statutes. RICO!
The typical HOA is not run by people with any legal or property management experience. They often rule through threats and intimidation and are motivated by pettiness and greed. When you buy into a community you may have an amicable HOA, but years later you may be in the "HOA from hell" situation. While not all HOA's are like this, the ones that survive depend on an apathy of the majority. Clearly an HOA with board members committing crimes is NOT going to "raise property values".
Sharon - you have my sincere sympathies. Your best bet is to move, but if you choose to stay and fight you will need the support of all of your neighbors that are HOA members and expect those that oppose you to get even nastier. This is where the "underground newsletter" comes in. |
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KevinH
(Texas)
Posts:53
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| 05/13/2006 9:22 PM |
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Sharon,
1) How many homeowners/members are in your HOA?
2) How many board member positions in total?
3) Do certain members tend to be on the nominating committee?
I would suggest speaking to homeowners individually to get a feel for their opinion, if any on the quality of the HOA and it's board members.
If people are willing to express that to you, let them know you are plan to run for the next board and would like to address their concerns. Find other homeowners that may be sound-minded & competent enough to be on the board and urge them to consider running.
If you see the same people on the nominating committee and think they may be biased, try to appoint different homeowners.
If you have 4 or less board members, I could understand why the two board members seem to dominate decisions. However if you have 5, you may be able to convince the other 3 to vote along with your decision. Just make a strong case and keep them focused on what is best for the HOA & homeowners. Unless they are biased or puppets of the other 2, you should be able to sway them.
Keep in mind, homeowners just vote for who will be on the board. The members of the board then decide who will be in certain positions. Technically, all board members should carry the same weight, while functionally, they perform specific jobs that may entitle them to additional powers.
If you aren't willing to deal with any of this, then moving out or proposing the HOA be dissolved to the rest of the members may be your only recourse. |
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If you cannot see the forest for the trees, back up and get a better view. Don't start to clear a path while still blind. |
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KevinH
(Texas)
Posts:53
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| 05/13/2006 9:36 PM |
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Lucius,
I am still debating my own personal feelings about HOAs. I am on the board and have been for 2 years now. When I moved here a few years back I had never heard of HOAs, and learned quickly not to like them. As I learned more about them, I can see the potential good that COULD come out of them, but that seems to require overcoming basic human nature at it's worse, more often then not.
Part of me is hopeful that all the work we have put in to help make significant changes (our board just lowered our operating costs by $15K) will come back to us in a positive way, however we are still seeing a considerable amount of apathy and indifference from the members. We're lucky if we get 10% involvement. Granted, nothing changes overnight.
Unfortunately the other part of me wants to learn of new ways to propose the option to dissolve with a realistic solution on how to address the common areas. I have heard someone mention using a property manager. I'd like to know more about how this is proposed to the city.
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If you cannot see the forest for the trees, back up and get a better view. Don't start to clear a path while still blind. |
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SharonD
(California)
Posts:39
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| 05/14/2006 9:16 PM |
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There are 233 homeowners.
5 board members plus these two women who quit but still run the board.
The board members are to select the positions for president etc...PROBLEM: These members have been listening to the two women who dominated the board stating it is a cumbersome and very difficult job etc etc. They are scared to take on the jobs. Our HOA members are apathetic because "it's only $100 a year...." But fact is this board has doubled costs to cover who knows what and again no one looks into it as "its only....."
Your comment: However if you have 5, you may be able to convince the other 3 to vote along with your decision. Just make a strong case and keep them focused on what is best for the HOA & homeowners. Unless they are biased or puppets of the other 2, you should be able to sway them.
They are puppets and scared....
I have lived here for 20 years...this is a residential area not condos...we have no amentities. I have tried to disband the board for years as we have no amenities and the city took over the streets. This HOA consiists of a bunch of retired career women who have no life so they have expanded the dutieis of this HOA to make themselves important. And as we have apathetic homeowners they allowed this to happen. |
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