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Subject: HOA Covenants Lack Definitions - Commercial Vehicle
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JeramieA


Posts:0


03/28/2019 10:34 AM  
Looking for feedback on if we can enforce a clause in our covenants on a homeowner who has a work van parked in their driveway (they manage rental properties, which is for another topic...). The van does not have any commercial marking on it but is a plain white Chevy Express 1500 van (and it's older looking and not in the best of shape).

Our covenants state:
No outdoor storage of any commercial vehicle, boat, camper, trailer, snowmobile, recreational vehicle, motorhome, all-terrain vehicle or motorcycle is permitted. Unless the same is enclosed within a garage, no motor vehicle may be parked or kept on any lot in the subdivision other than a car, truck or van which is licensed by the State of Wisconsin as a private passenger vehicle.

In looking up WI state definitions, a "commercial vehicle" means a motor vehicle used to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle meets either of the following:
1. The vehicle has a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,000 pounds or more.
2. The vehicle is designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver.

So since our covenants don't define a "Commercial vehicle", do we need to go by the WI state definition?

The owner in question did show me the title and the vehicle is registered under them and not to a company. The owner pushed back saying they are compliant based on it being a van registered to them.

It's my opinion that we can't do anything about this since it doesn't fall under the state definition of a commercial vehicle and it's registered to the owner.

BobB31
(Florida)

Posts:43


03/28/2019 10:47 AM  
Given the lack of commercial marking how could anyone know that it is a "work" vehicle without asking the owner and having him tell you it is? I'm curious what prompted the question. All the owner had to do was tell you is it is registered in his name and he uses it to go to work, and the question of enforcing the covenant would never have arisen.

I've never understood the reason for prohibiting such vehicles. Is there a liability issue, or is it aesthetics?
TimM11


Posts:241


03/28/2019 10:52 AM  
Based on what you wrote, it doesn't sound like you can do anything. Those vans are nowhere close to the state definition's weight requirement and only meet the passenger requirement if the seating is maxed out (which it wouldn't be if it is being used as a work vehicle).

It's not unheard of for people to own vans of that size for personal use; I know someone who owned a Ford Transit van because it was the easiest way to transport a disabled family member. If the van is not otherwise causing problems, I'd let it go.

JaredC
(Texas)

Posts:174


03/28/2019 10:55 AM  
C'mon now. These people are your neighbors. Pick your battles wisely.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8195


03/28/2019 10:58 AM  
My last HOA also said no commercial vehicles can be parked overnight in ones driveway. We looked at two things, signage and rigging. Had two identical vans. One had a sign on it "Airport Service". We ruled that one to be commercial. Owner fought some but gave up and bought a blank magnetic sign to cover the wording.

Had a SUV with a realtors name and address on the rear window. We ruled it commercial in staying with our signage meant commercial. They removed the sign.

Also commercial plates do not tell the whole story. In SC one can get a commercial plate for their passenger car. What it does is allow them to park for one hour in Loading Zones. Principle being one needs to bring something from their car into their place of business.

I looked at a Chevy 1500 online. It is a big soccer mom van. With no commercial signage or rigging, I say it is not a commercial vehicle.

ND
(PA)

Posts:268


03/28/2019 11:03 AM  
Agree with Bob . . .

To directly answer your question re: "So since our covenants don't define a "Commercial vehicle", do we need to go by the WI state definition?" . . . I'd say that in the absence of any other definition, yes going by the WI state definition is at least something that you can point to as official. If this is truly something you want to pursue, you likely have ability to define w/in HOA Rules and Regs or otherwise amend your docs to suit your definition of a "commercial vehicle". Search this site for tons of opinions on definitions . . . they vary widely!

That said, as you've described it, this owner is completely in compliance with your documents and never owed proof to anyone of vehicle ownership or registration status . . . it is a properly registered, (assume) properly insured, passenger vehicle van. Matters not what it is used for or that it's not in great shape. If I were him, I would have told you to pound sand . . . but he sounds nicer and more accommodating than I. Might be best to keep him an ally than turn him into an enemy.

And with Bob again . . . what is the issue? The guy is making a living and uses his van toward that goal. Likely is a decent, approachable neighbor who pays his HOA assessments on time and in full. Unless there are other issues of significance with this individual, I say just live and let live. When he swaps his plain, white van for an 18-wheeler, you should reengage.
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/28/2019 11:24 AM  
..... licensed by the State of Wisconsin as a private passenger vehicle.


Is it registered as a private passenger vehicle ?


facepalm-emoticon
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8195


03/28/2019 12:17 PM  
BOB

In my last HOA we banned commercial vehicles (from overnight parking in ones driveway) for aesthetic reasons. Also each home had a 2 or 3 car garage so many disputed vehicles could have been parked in their garage. We also did not allow overnight street parking.

In my present HOA not all homes have garages so we do not ban commercial vehicles.

I can roll either way depending on the situation as long as I knew it going in
JeramieA


Posts:0


03/28/2019 12:32 PM  
Is it registered as a private passenger vehicle? Our covenants don't align with how WI registeres vehicles......
Technically it's registered as a truck:
The WisDOT issues titles and/or registration (license plates) for four vehicle types:
- Automobile (AUTO) – passenger vehicles
- Motorcycle (CYCL) – includes motorcycles, trikes and mopeds
- Trailer (TRLR) – includes semi and gross weight trailers
- Truck (TRUK) – includes heavy trucks, pick-ups, vans and most SUVs*

This whole thing arose with the van owner's neighbor submitting a complaint to the board about noise in the morning (5am). The van owners are heating up the car (it has been cold here the past few months), and loading this van with tools and work supplies before they leave for work. The van owners have told me they manage rental properties and this is their personal van they use to go to work in. Unfortunately, the situation between these neighbors has deteriorated and it doesn't appear they are resolving. The board is meeting next week to discuss options.

Some on the board want to issue a fine for:
- Noxious activity / nuisance for the noise in the morning
- Commercial vehicle in the driveway (I disagree)
- Running a business from their home. (I would debate this point, see below)

I'm not for fines as I don't think we have much of a case except for causing a nuissance which at this time only 1 neighbor has complained. Our covenants state:

No noxious, offensive or dangerous activity of any kind may be conducted upon any lot; nor any trade, business or profession be carried on, and generally, no activities may be conducted which would constitute a nuisance to other owners of lots within the subdivision.


I'm new at this HOA thing and it's my first time being on aboard, but for our covenants to say "nor any trade, business or profession be carried on" is a vague statement. My wife is a teacher and grades papers at home, technically under their interpretation we are violating this since her "profession is being carried on". Under their interpretation, you can't have a rental property, be a traveling salesperson, or even a tradesman that loads up tools in the morning for their job.

I think I'm trying to be the voice of reason and have a good grasp at what I feel is fair in this situation. Just wanted to validate my opinions here.
BarbaraT1
(Texas)

Posts:150


03/28/2019 2:13 PM  
It's not the board's job to mediate neighbor disputes.
JeramieA


Posts:0


03/28/2019 2:43 PM  
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 03/28/2019 2:13 PM
It's not the board's job to mediate neighbor disputes.




I agree. I'm going to propose to the board that we don't get involved with complaints pertaining to subjective covenants involving neighbor to neighbor disputes.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16257


03/28/2019 4:18 PM  
If it doesn't have signage or ladder racks, it's difficult to make a case for it being a commercial vehicle.

My Board has a similar issue and we tend to get varied complaints each year.
We simply explain to those who are complaining that due to the lack of signage and lack of ladder trucks, the board has determined the vehicle is not commercial.


On the flip side, we did have a smaller vehicle with ladders on top and we determined that to be commercial.


My advice, the board should adopt a resolution clarifying what is considered a commercial vehicle.
DO NOT tailor the resolution to go after this one vehicle (that can get the Association into legal issues).
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/28/2019 5:02 PM  
Posted By JeramieA on 03/28/2019 12:32 PM
Is it registered as a private passenger vehicle? Our covenants don't align with how WI registeres vehicles......
Technically it's registered as a truck
:
The WisDOT issues titles and/or registration (license plates) for four vehicle types:
- Automobile (AUTO) – passenger vehicles
- Motorcycle (CYCL) – includes motorcycles, trikes and mopeds
- Trailer (TRLR) – includes semi and gross weight trailers
- Truck (TRUK) – includes heavy trucks, pick-ups, vans and most SUVs*

This whole thing arose with the van owner's neighbor submitting a complaint to the board about noise in the morning (5am). The van owners are heating up the car (it has been cold here the past few months), and loading this van with tools and work supplies before they leave for work. The van owners have told me they manage rental properties and this is their personal van they use to go to work in. Unfortunately, the situation between these neighbors has deteriorated and it doesn't appear they are resolving. The board is meeting next week to discuss options.

Some on the board want to issue a fine for:
- Noxious activity / nuisance for the noise in the morning
- Commercial vehicle in the driveway (I disagree)
- Running a business from their home. (I would debate this point, see below)

I'm not for fines as I don't think we have much of a case except for causing a nuissance which at this time only 1 neighbor has complained. Our covenants state:

No noxious, offensive or dangerous activity of any kind may be conducted upon any lot; nor any trade, business or profession be carried on, and generally, no activities may be conducted which would constitute a nuisance to other owners of lots within the subdivision.


I'm new at this HOA thing and it's my first time being on aboard, but for our covenants to say "nor any trade, business or profession be carried on" is a vague statement. My wife is a teacher and grades papers at home, technically under their interpretation we are violating this since her "profession is being carried on". Under their interpretation, you can't have a rental property, be a traveling salesperson, or even a tradesman that loads up tools in the morning for their job.

I think I'm trying to be the voice of reason and have a good grasp at what I feel is fair in this situation. Just wanted to validate my opinions here.




Your well written Covenants rule:

..... Our covenants state:
No outdoor storage of any commercial vehicle, boat, camper, trailer, snowmobile, recreational vehicle, motorhome, all-terrain vehicle or motorcycle is permitted. Unless the same is enclosed within a garage, no motor vehicle may be parked or kept on any lot in the subdivision other than a car, truck or van which is licensed by the State of Wisconsin as a private passenger vehicle. .....


If Wisconsin does not register trucks as private passenger vehicles ~ so be it.

It seems that Wisconsin DMV agrees with the intent of your covenant(s)

Passenger cars are cars - vans are vans - trucks are trucks.
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/28/2019 5:05 PM  
oops ... sorry for the continuous underline

JeramieA


Posts:0


03/28/2019 5:06 PM  
That's sarcasm right?

and you're not trying to say only cars can be parked in driveways but not vans and pickup trucks right? My neighbors Honda Odyssey would be upset
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/28/2019 5:10 PM  
Posted By TimB4 on 03/28/2019 4:18 PM>If it doesn't have signage or ladder racks, it's difficult to make a case for it being a commercial vehicle.

My Board has a similar issue and we tend to get varied complaints each year.
We simply explain to those who are complaining that due to the lack of signage and lack of ladder trucks, the board has determined the vehicle is not commercial.


On the flip side, we did have a smaller vehicle with ladders on top and we determined that to be commercial.


My advice, the board should adopt a resolution clarifying what is considered a commercial vehicle.
DO NOT tailor the resolution to go after this one vehicle (that can get the Association into legal issues).




The issue is NOT 'commercial vehicle'.

The issue is Covenant violation (resulting in nuisance noise).

As per the OP's Covenant:

..... no motor vehicle may be parked or kept on any lot in the subdivision other than a car, truck or van which is licensed by the State of Wisconsin as a private passenger vehicle. .....


The intent, IMO, is to PROHIBIT any vehicle OTHER than a passenger automobile from parking OUTSIDE the garage.

FredS7
(Arizona)

Posts:884


03/28/2019 8:02 PM  
I find myself agreeing with the King.

There are two sentences quoted. Referring to the SECOND- ask the owner to demonstrate that his van is registered as a private passenger vehicle- and by the state of Wisconsin.

(Apparently cars registered in other states are not allowed!)

TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16257


03/28/2019 8:11 PM  
Posted By JeramieA on 03/28/2019 12:32 PM

This whole thing arose with the van owner's neighbor submitting a complaint to the board about noise in the morning (5am). The van owners are heating up the car (it has been cold here the past few months), and loading this van with tools and work supplies before they leave for work. The van owners have told me they manage rental properties and this is their personal van they use to go to work in. Unfortunately, the situation between these neighbors has deteriorated and it doesn't appear they are resolving. The board is meeting next week to discuss options.




This, in my opinion, is not an Association issue.

This, as others have said, is a neighbor vs. neighbor issue.

Our Association adopted a policy that they will only become involved in noise/nuisance complaints if two or more different lots make a complaint in writing.

The board should tell the neighbor to work it out or make a complaint to the police to see if it violates local noise or vehicle ordinances. Note: I say vehicle ordinances because in my area you are not allowed to leave a vehicle running without an operator in the vehicle (can't start the car to warm up, lock it and go back in the house to wait).
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3424


03/28/2019 8:40 PM  
For that model the min is 12 passengers and 15 passenger of the larger model, both INCLUDING driver and the gross weight is 7300 lbs.

END OF STORY.
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/29/2019 6:56 AM  
Posted By JeramieA on 03/28/2019 5:06 PM
That's sarcasm right?

and you're not trying to say only cars can be parked in driveways but not vans and pickup trucks right? My neighbors Honda Odyssey would be upset





I say nothing.

The OP's Covenant states:

..... Unless the same is enclosed within a garage, no motor vehicle may be parked or kept on any lot in the subdivision other than a car, truck or van which is licensed by the State of Wisconsin as a private passenger vehicle. ,,,,,
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/29/2019 6:58 AM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 03/28/2019 8:40 PM
For that model the min is 12 passengers and 15 passenger of the larger model, both INCLUDING driver and the gross weight is 7300 lbs.

END OF STORY.




In Wisconsin it would NOT register as a passenger car but either a light truck or a SUV.

In the OP's development, per covenant, you may not park it in the driveway.
BarbaraT1
(Texas)

Posts:150


03/29/2019 7:23 AM  
As I have said before on this forum, stuff like this is why people hate HOAs.

You shouldn't have to bend over backwards, stand on one leg and cover one eye to find a reason to issue a violation. Boards should not be scouring documents and definitions in hopes of finding a justification for their decision.

ONE person complained about noise ONE time, and an entire committee is going to be convened to decide if this man can continue to park a vehicle in his driveway, as he has been doing for years without incident.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3424


03/29/2019 8:41 AM  
Posted By RoyalP on 03/29/2019 6:58 AM
Posted By RichardP13 on 03/28/2019 8:40 PM
For that model the min is 12 passengers and 15 passenger of the larger model, both INCLUDING driver and the gross weight is 7300 lbs.

END OF STORY.




In Wisconsin it would NOT register as a passenger car but either a light truck or a SUV.

In the OP's development, per covenant, you may not park it in the driveway.



And you know this for a fact or bustin someone's ass.
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/29/2019 9:06 AM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 03/29/2019 8:41 AM
Posted By RoyalP on 03/29/2019 6:58 AM
Posted By RichardP13 on 03/28/2019 8:40 PM
For that model the min is 12 passengers and 15 passenger of the larger model, both INCLUDING driver and the gross weight is 7300 lbs.

END OF STORY.




In Wisconsin it would NOT register as a passenger car but either a light truck or a SUV.

In the OP's development, per covenant, you may not park it in the driveway.



And you know this for a fact or bustin someone's ass.





As per the OP:

..... Technically it's registered as a truck:
The WisDOT issues titles and/or registration (license plates) for four vehicle types:
- Automobile (AUTO) – passenger vehicles
- Motorcycle (CYCL) – includes motorcycles, trikes and mopeds
- Trailer (TRLR) – includes semi and gross weight trailers
- Truck (TRUK) – includes heavy trucks, pick-ups, vans and most SUVs .....




One should REALLY REALLY REALLY CAVEAT EMPTOR


RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3424


03/29/2019 9:44 AM  
And you're why I don't live in a HOA!
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2825


03/29/2019 10:31 AM  
Posted By BobB31 on 03/28/2019 10:47 AM
I've never understood the reason for prohibiting such vehicles. Is there a liability issue, or is it aesthetics?

From my own personal perspective, it's a question of aesthetics. We don't want to live in a neighborhood that looks like an industrial park. It's supposed to be a residential subdivision. Commercial vehicles, large trucks, dirty junkers, all look like crap and detract from the community's appearance.
JeramieA


Posts:0


03/29/2019 12:11 PM  
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 03/29/2019 7:23 AM
As I have said before on this forum, stuff like this is why people hate HOAs.

You shouldn't have to bend over backwards, stand on one leg and cover one eye to find a reason to issue a violation. Boards should not be scouring documents and definitions in hopes of finding a justification for their decision.

ONE person complained about noise ONE time, and an entire committee is going to be convened to decide if this man can continue to park a vehicle in his driveway, as he has been doing for years without incident.




A. The person has had continued complaints for the past few months regarding this situation

B. The board is convening to discuss how to interpret our covenants, establish a procedure for members to submit complaints, and for the board to handle complaints (not just for this situation, but this situation brought to light how subjective the covenants are and that we have no documented procedure for sumbitting or handling complaints)

I'm recommending we do nothing in this case. I feel the owner has a right to park this van in their driveway. I've heard the van and there is no exhaust or noise issue from it either.

Thanks all for your feedback.
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/29/2019 12:43 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 03/29/2019 9:44 AM
And you're why I don't live in a HOA!





I did not state that I agreed with the Covenant.

I merely repeated the OP's quote from it.

A major issue with HOAs is that the 'executives' attempt to 'think' instead of merely executing the WRITTEN contract, a/k/a Covenant to which all parties AGREED IN WRITING, albeit some may have not read the CCRs BEFORE signing (yes, SIGNING) the deed transfer papers.


ps.

I, too, hate and despise HOAs, but have fought (to the death) for the Constitutional right to enter into a binding contract.

As we were REPEATEDLY taught in school: Read it before you sign it.

The OP's covenant re: passenger vehicles registered by Wisconsin is iron clad and bullet proof and SHOULD have been enforced from the 'get-go'

OR

the CCRs should have been amended.


It was only when an inconsiderate neighbor started loading and 'banging about' in the ?early? AM that it became the very nuisance the Covenant was trying to avoid.

OUT
bs-meter
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/29/2019 12:50 PM  
from the 'executive' in question:

..... I feel the owner has a right to park this van in their driveway. I've heard the van and there is no exhaust or noise issue from it either. .....


in spite of the Covenant's clear ban of said registered trucks.

instead of:

I believe the owner should have the right to park this van in their driveway. I will suggest amending the CCRs to permit modern 1/2 ton Pick-Up trucks, vans, and SUVs (providing they have no commercial signage visible) in the future.

(posts crossed)
TimM11


Posts:241


03/29/2019 1:10 PM  
A van where more than 50% of the capacity has been converted to seating can get an automobile plate in Wisconsin: https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/vehicles/title-plates/auto.aspx.
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/29/2019 2:26 PM  
Regular automobile
Issued to autos, including vans and sport utility vehicles, when more than 50% of the internal capacity is dedicated to seating. Disabled parking version available. More...

Also issued to schools having a driver education program (must have insurance filed with Wisconsin Department of Transportation). Driver education motorcycle version available.




Perhaps the violator is ACTUALLY driving a 'work truck' or perhaps the violator is simply ignorant.

Either way, the violator owns a REGISTERED TRUCK, not a passenger vehicle.

Said vehicle, as per covenant, must NOT be parked in the driveway.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:219


03/30/2019 4:33 AM  
Our attorneys have advised us that nowadays many folks drive trucks or vans as their personal vehicles, and courts have tended to side with the vehicle owners when an HOA tries to strictly enforce a "no truck or commercial vehicle" restriction. Their advice is to let it go unless the vehicle is also a violation of another sort (ie., a junk vehicle or the weight exceeds a certain limit that would damage concrete).
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1179


03/30/2019 7:15 AM  
hmmm ... supposed to be positive website re HOAs ...why are some of you spending your time, if you hate HOAs?

I think they are great - mainly because they prevent my neighbor, any neighbor, from damaging my enjoyment and property values.
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16257


03/30/2019 8:24 AM  
The OPs post count is zero.

It appears they have left the forum.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:219


03/30/2019 8:40 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 03/30/2019 7:15 AM
hmmm ... supposed to be positive website re HOAs ...why are some of you spending your time, if you hate HOAs?

I think they are great - mainly because they prevent my neighbor, any neighbor, from damaging my enjoyment and property values.




People's HOA experiences vary widely. If you're living in a well-managed HOA run by a competent board, and you're not doing any of the work, and the large majority of your neighbors are complying with the CC&Rs, your experience will probably be very positive. If you are serving on the board yourself, or if you live in a poorly run HOA, or if the rule-breakers are running amok, your experience will be very different.

As far as I can tell, HOAs and COAs are the only corporations that lawmakers think should be run by often unqualified volunteers, and that somehow everything will work out OK. As we can see from some of the questions posted on this site, things are often not OK.
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/30/2019 10:01 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 03/30/2019 7:15 AM
hmmm ... supposed to be positive website re HOAs ...why are some of you spending your time, if you hate HOAs?

I think they are great - mainly because they {supposedly} prevent my neighbor, any neighbor, from damaging my enjoyment and property values.





Good luck with that.

The existence of this forum is proof.


SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3189


03/31/2019 5:22 AM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 03/28/2019 8:40 PM
For that model the min is 12 passengers and 15 passenger of the larger model, both INCLUDING driver and the gross weight is 7300 lbs. END OF STORY.


Well, I do personally know someone with 8 kids, 2 parents who have a 12 passenger van. The extra seats are used for all the sports gear, etc when going to games. Its the only vehicle that will fit the family without taking two cars. Its never been used for commercial activity.

RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


03/31/2019 6:35 AM  
Steve,

As per Wisconsin DMV:

Regular automobile
Issued to autos, including vans and sport utility vehicles, when more than 50% of the internal capacity is dedicated to seating. Disabled parking version available. More...

Also issued to schools having a driver education program (must have insurance filed with Wisconsin Department of Transportation). Driver education motorcycle version available.





Wisconsin actually seems rational
LanceG1
(Georgia)

Posts:42


03/31/2019 6:54 PM  
This is where it feels like some common sense may be in order.

For example, under this rule if a police officer lived there and drove their car home at night that would be banned....even though in that scenario that would be a net positive from a security standpoint.

It would be be one thing if there are RV's regularly parked there, or a dump truck, tow truck etc.. But a Van that could be a private passenger van or a commercial one seems to be getting into the gray area here.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:219


04/01/2019 5:34 AM  
Posted By LanceG1 on 03/31/2019 6:54 PM
This is where it feels like some common sense may be in order.

For example, under this rule if a police officer lived there and drove their car home at night that would be banned....even though in that scenario that would be a net positive from a security standpoint.

It would be be one thing if there are RV's regularly parked there, or a dump truck, tow truck etc.. But a Van that could be a private passenger van or a commercial one seems to be getting into the gray area here.




And this gray area is exactly where HOA boards get into trouble. I understand why some CC&Rs are vague; it allows for common sense rather than nitpickyness to rule. However, the board also must avoid selective enforcement, which often means that judgement calls aren't allowed.

'Tis a conundrum.
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


04/01/2019 6:22 AM  
..... It would be be one thing if there are RV's regularly parked there, or a dump truck, tow truck etc.. But a Van that could be a private passenger van or a commercial one seems to be getting into the gray area here. .....



The issue, as per the OP's CCRs, is not passenger vs. commercial, but the fact that TRUCKS as per Wisconsin registration are not permitted to be parked on driveways.

If the van in question were truly for passengers then it could/should be registered as a passenger vehicle.

We are THINKING instead of simply COMPLYING with a signed contract a/k/a covenant.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3424


04/01/2019 7:43 AM  
Posted By RoyalP on 04/01/2019 6:22 AM
We are THINKING instead of simply COMPLYING with a signed contract a/k/a covenant.



COMPLYING WITH A A SIGNED CONTRACT.???????

I have lived in one HOA and never signed any form of HOA contract.

I have managed over 120 HOA's in 10 years and handled hundreds of escrows and never have I presented any form of HOA contract to have anyone sign on behalf of any of my clients. Can you provide all of us with a sample HOA contract.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8195


04/01/2019 7:46 AM  
Posted By LanceG1 on 03/31/2019 6:54 PM
This is where it feels like some common sense may be in order.

For example, under this rule if a police officer lived there and drove their car home at night that would be banned....even though in that scenario that would be a net positive from a security standpoint.

It would be be one thing if there are RV's regularly parked there, or a dump truck, tow truck etc.. But a Van that could be a private passenger van or a commercial one seems to be getting into the gray area here.




In my last HOA we considered any vehicle with signage as commercial. We did make an exception for Government Safety Vehicles such as a police car.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8195


04/01/2019 7:49 AM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 04/01/2019 7:43 AM
Posted By RoyalP on 04/01/2019 6:22 AM
We are THINKING instead of simply COMPLYING with a signed contract a/k/a covenant.



COMPLYING WITH A A SIGNED CONTRACT.???????

I have lived in one HOA and never signed any form of HOA contract.

I have managed over 120 HOA's in 10 years and handled hundreds of escrows and never have I presented any form of HOA contract to have anyone sign on behalf of any of my clients. Can you provide all of us with a sample HOA contract.




Royal is calling the Covenants a contract and one can certainly view it as such and people did sign for it.
I say it is a signed contract.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3424


04/01/2019 7:57 AM  
You signed for it? Anyone have a copy?
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


04/01/2019 7:58 AM  
YES

The Register of Deeds has the filed originals.
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


04/01/2019 8:02 AM  
The SIGNED DEED refers to the Easements and Restrictions of record. Said easements and restrictions are often 'appendixes' to the deed, but need not be so, merely 'referenced', ergo: CAVEAT EMPTOR.

That is PRECISELY why they are enforceable under 'contract law'.

D'OH
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3424


04/01/2019 8:23 AM  
I am looking at the Grant Deed for the HOA I lived in. It references the Condo Plan, but nothing about any recorded Restrictions.

Now there is one other document that a borrower signs that they promise to pay their obligations as outlined in a set of documents, BUT nothing to follow the rules.

Sorry sport.
AugustinD


Posts:1498


04/01/2019 8:48 AM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 04/01/2019 7:43 AM
Posted By RoyalP on 04/01/2019 6:22 AM
We are THINKING instead of simply COMPLYING with a signed contract a/k/a covenant.



COMPLYING WITH A A SIGNED CONTRACT.???????


RoyalP is correct, of course. Upon one's acquiring a deed, by law one is bound by the covenants for the land to which the deed pertains, in the same manner as a contract binds the signer. Among other citations, see:

-- covenant
1) n. a promise in a written contract or a deed of real property. The term is used only for certain types of promises such as a covenant of warranty, which is a promise to guarantee the title (clear ownership) to property, a promise agreeing to joint use of an easement for access to real property, or a covenant not to compete, which is commonly included in promises made by a seller of a business for a certain period of time. Mutual covenants among members of a homeowners association are promises to respect the rules of conduct or restrictions on use of property to insure peaceful use, limitations on intrusive construction, etc., which are usually part of the recorded covenants, conditions and restrictions which govern a development or condominium project. ...
-- https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=390


-- Neighborhood Covenants
Technically (and within the context of residential neighborhoods), a covenant is a rule governing the use of real property. However, in common usage, it may also refer to a promise or agreement (as formalized in a deed) concerning the use of the land, as where a purchaser of land “covenants” to abide by certain restrictions associated with the use of the land. Essentially, such covenants are promises made by a prospective purchaser as a condition of purchasing the land in question.

When properly recorded on a deed conveying land, a covenant (”restrictive deed covenant”) has the legal effect of a binding contract term, and may be so enforced. When covenants are instead signed privately among neighbors, as in a mutual compact or agreement, they are still binding upon the signatories and may be litigated if breached.
-- https://realestate.uslegal.com/neighborhood-covenants/
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:219


04/01/2019 8:49 AM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 04/01/2019 7:43 AM
Posted By RoyalP on 04/01/2019 6:22 AM
We are THINKING instead of simply COMPLYING with a signed contract a/k/a covenant.



COMPLYING WITH A A SIGNED CONTRACT.???????

I have lived in one HOA and never signed any form of HOA contract.

I have managed over 120 HOA's in 10 years and handled hundreds of escrows and never have I presented any form of HOA contract to have anyone sign on behalf of any of my clients. Can you provide all of us with a sample HOA contract.




Yup. The CC&Rs that are attached to your deed form a contract, and you "signed" when your closed on your home. That's why the CC&Rs are legally enforceable, and why people are given copies before they close.

People who view the CC&Rs are "suggestions" to be ignored are then shocked - SHOCKED, I say - when they discover that they are in fact obligated to obey said "suggestions".



RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3424


04/01/2019 8:56 AM  
Sorry, going to disagree with you all.
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:578


04/01/2019 10:24 AM  
....... yet you will CONTINUE to 'manage' HOAs




may the Creator help us all, as the managers themselves are clueless
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3424


04/01/2019 10:34 AM  
YEP
SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3189


04/01/2019 7:29 PM  
Posted By RichardP13 on 04/01/2019 8:23 AM
I am looking at the Grant Deed for the HOA I lived in. It references the Condo Plan, but nothing about any recorded Restrictions.


RichardP13, I respectfully disagree with you. If you cant find the deed restrictions, your not educated enough to find them. A lawyer could easily find them for you in a court of law and point them out to the judge.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3424


04/01/2019 7:35 PM  
Not educated enough?

I write the goddamn things! I underwrote home loans so I kinda know what I am talking about.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3424


04/01/2019 8:21 PM  
Attached is a copy of the amendment to my Grant Deed. It was a 5 page document, which the first three have nothing on it. I would like someone to point out where there is anything referencing a HOA and/or its restrictions. Mortgage companies like other people with a contract care about one thing and one thing only getting paid! They could care less about you following anyone else's rules.


Attachment: 141212856171.pdf

SteveM9
(Massachusetts)

Posts:3189


04/02/2019 5:35 AM  
I would like someone to point out where there is anything referencing a HOA and/or its restrictions.


Well there are tons of other references to other documents all over that deed. You need to title search each one of them to find out what the restrictions are throughout the years on the property.

Just because you write deeds doesn't mean you understand them. Legally speaking. Copy and pasting is easy. You dont need a legal degree to do that.

I could write a deed right now that says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve of 123 Main street sells to Mary of 900 Elm Drive for consideration paid the following property: 123 Main Street.

Signature
Signature
Witness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I could delete everything, and file it myself. Does that mean its not legal? Nope. Does that mean all the other deeds and their restrictions are not valid? Nope. It just means its not written on the current deed. Which means nothing.
BobB31
(Florida)

Posts:43


04/02/2019 5:59 AM  
Posted By SteveM9 on 04/02/2019 5:35 AM
I would like someone to point out where there is anything referencing a HOA and/or its restrictions.


Well there are tons of other references to other documents all over that deed.



Particularly, "association property, as defined in the Declaration". So this section of the deed mentions an association and its Declaration. I assume that said Declaration would provide the restrictions and covenants.

The contract I signed when I closed on my house included an HOA addendum which made clear I was agreeing to join a mandatory HOA and be subject to its restrictions, a copy of which I was given during closing. I don't have access to my deed so I can't tell you if the deed also mentions it.
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