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CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:826

11/18/2007 5:31 AM
Posted By PatH4 on 11/17/2007 6:29 PM Here is the bottom line.... When you purchased your house you agreed to the Governing documents, CC&Rs, Bylaws, Articles and Rules and Regs. It is called a CONTRACT but this is an ADHESION CONTRACT. FINES are NOT ALLOWED in contract law unless it says you will be charged $100 for leaving your garbage can out past the bewitching hour. And I doubt you will find such language. So again, FINES ARE ILLEGAL IN YOUR CONTRACT. In order for your HOA to collect FINES they must file in a real Court of Law for DAMAGES. So the HOA must prove to a Judge HOW YOU "DAMAGED" THE HOA BY LEAVING YOUR GARBAGE CAN OUT PAST THE BEWITCHING. (I would love to hear that). Just remember this fact, just because the HOA says so doesn't make it so. How often have you heard, "but you signed". Yeah, well you can sign a contract to sell your child but IT'S NOT A LEGAL CONTRACT. Pat www.CHORE.us PatH4, I sense a considerable amount of frustration in your post. I would certainly be doubtful of “ITS” legal weight also! Your association is unquestionable run differently than the “typical HOA”. However, the fining procedure should be one that is very descriptive in its process prior to actually FINING a Lot owner for such violation(s), IF indeed it is clearly stated as a violation, in which YOU “did sign”, so they say! It sounds as though you are being fined, without an opportunity to comply to the said violation? If, so (If I were you) I would read (very thoroughly) my governing documents, CCR&E, By-laws and RR’s or what have you, before making such a broad claim merely based upon YOUR personal encounter with the board of directors that govern your association. Attached is our covenant regarding the fining process of which we (the BOD) have the ability to FINE any person or persons not found to comply in the declared number of days (governing documents) I’m the Vice President in our sub-division for the pass two years and I KNOW our governing documents specifically confirms the fining procedure we have followed. In which the board has exhausted every effort to maintain property values for all our residence. Remember that the majority of HOA communities fine in order to obtain compliance while there is SOME BOD that only wants to “fatten” their pockets with additional cash from their residents. Chuck W.
Attachment: 1111831965871.doc
Charles E. Wafer Jr.

DavidH4

Posts:0

11/18/2007 6:01 AM
When you agree with the governing documents and fines for non-compliance to the R & R's are in writing, you are subject to and required to pay fines. If you do not, then the association puts a lien on your property. You may not pay your fine, but you will not sell it until the lien is satisfied.

ReneeD
(Illinois)

Posts:192

11/18/2007 9:34 AM
JC3 -That is a very good question that I will bring up at the next meeting. But what I do know is that fines or late fees are lumped together on a Delinquent Report until paid and then I would think it is reported as income in our Operating Budget.

StephanieB3
(Georgia)

Posts:29

11/19/2007 6:21 AM
Well thank goodness we state in our CC&Rs what the fining policy and amount is. You can't just let people run around just doing anything. My point is once again, if you don't want to abide by the governing documents, don't move to a community ruled by an Association. Buy some land, build and then you can't paint your house purple, let your trash can sit our all week, or whatever ridiculous thing you want to do.

StephanieB3
(Georgia)

Posts:29

11/19/2007 6:27 AM
The money we collect from fines and such is used for the operating budget.

HaroldS
(Arizona)

Posts:904

11/19/2007 9:02 AM
"You can't just let people run around just doing anything." Said Stephanie. Just imagine what allowing that would do. Harold

BradD2
(Florida)

Posts:418

11/19/2007 11:49 AM
Stephanie be careful about what you do with the fines. If they are budgeted then it gives the impression that you have a quota you are trying to fill. Dave, you might want to read Florida Statute 720. There are several things you have said which are either in the gray area or incorrect. The final word on fines is decided by a group of homeowners that are not on the board or related to the board. If your committee has a board member or relative of a board member on it then that is not the final say. You also can not lien purely based on fines; there has to be a dues problem first.

DonnaS
(Tennessee)

Posts:5671

11/19/2007 1:49 PM
Brad, That is correct. Board members MAY NOT be on the fining or enforcement committees. And fines are NOT lienable according to Fl.St 720. After fines have reached the State limitations of $1000.00, some creative documents and attorneys have gotten the fines assigned as a "special assessment, which is lienable

PatH4
(Arizona)

Posts:17

11/19/2007 2:00 PM
Jean, I can't answer for CA but if I had the time the best place to look is on the CA Legislative Website. As to the CONTRACT....contract law is contract law and is the same across the United States. Pat www.CHORE.us

PatH4
(Arizona)

Posts:17

11/19/2007 2:15 PM
Chuck W., First let me ask what is your legal qualifications since you question the "legal weight" of my post. I also did NOT even mention my HOA in my post so unless you live here how can you question anything about my HOA. I also have NOT BEEN FINED...I would be interested in you pointing where I said that also. But I would like to address your position that "your are being fined, without an opportunity to comply to said violation". First it is obvious from your words that your opinion has already been formed by the use of "opportunity to comply to said violation". See you already decided that the homeowner is in violation! But even with a "hearing", it is NOT a FAIR HEARING.....the homeowner is facing not only the Judge who is unbiased but going before THE COP, THE JUDGE AND THE JURY...all are the Board members! And to your last statement regarding why there are fines....let me suggest to you, if it is true (and I will assume it is) that the reason for fines is to obtain compliance there is another way. Why doesn't the Board send out an announcement to the WHOLE COMMUNITY informing them that EVERY WEDNESDAY WILL BE COMPLIANCE DAY! Then every homeowner knows when the COP will be driving by to check on compliance of the documents. Now this gives the homeowner the opportunity to make sure that as of Tuesday night there are NO VIOLATIONS on their property. What do you think Chuck??? There is your COMPLIANCE...of course, it would cut into that pocket you put VIOLATION MONEY into. Soon maybe there would be no need to employ a bunch of Gladys Kravitz' Oh and by the way, my only frustration is in dealing with out of control Kings and Queens who definitely prove that Lord Acton was absolutely correct... Pat www.CHORE.us

PatH4
(Arizona)

Posts:17

11/19/2007 2:16 PM
Not true DavidH4!!

JimH5
(Indiana)

Posts:17

11/19/2007 3:01 PM
If you can not levy and collect fines then how do you enforce CCRs and RRs? For example (this is a condo building) a resident puts uo XMAS lights in their balcony but after a reasonable time, say 30 days, won't take them down and leaves them all summer even after being requested to do so. Investors own units in the building and only a percentage of rentals are allowed (in the CCRs), all leases are to be approved, move in proceedures followed etc. They can't sell the units so rent without any notification to the board without fines how can this be stopped? You see my point is that without teeth you can only rely on people doing the right think which we all know is not always reliable. Jim

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:826

11/20/2007 5:18 AM
Posted By PatH4 on 11/19/2007 2:15 PM Chuck W., First let me ask what is your legal qualifications since you question the "legal weight" of my post. I also did NOT even mention my HOA in my post so unless you live here how can you question anything about my HOA. I also have NOT BEEN FINED...I would be interested in you pointing where I said that also. But I would like to address your position that "your are being fined, without an opportunity to comply to said violation". First it is obvious from your words that your opinion has already been formed by the use of "opportunity to comply to said violation". See you already decided that the homeowner is in violation! But even with a "hearing", it is NOT a FAIR HEARING.....the homeowner is facing not only the Judge who is unbiased but going before THE COP, THE JUDGE AND THE JURY...all are the Board members! And to your last statement regarding why there are fines....let me suggest to you, if it is true (and I will assume it is) that the reason for fines is to obtain compliance there is another way. Why doesn't the Board send out an announcement to the WHOLE COMMUNITY informing them that EVERY WEDNESDAY WILL BE COMPLIANCE DAY! Then every homeowner knows when the COP will be driving by to check on compliance of the documents. Now this gives the homeowner the opportunity to make sure that as of Tuesday night there are NO VIOLATIONS on their property. What do you think Chuck??? There is your COMPLIANCE...of course, it would cut into that pocket you put VIOLATION MONEY into. Soon maybe there would be no need to employ a bunch of Gladys Kravitz' Oh and by the way, my only frustration is in dealing with out of control Kings and Queens who definitely prove that Lord Acton was absolutely correct... Pat www.CHORE.us PatH4 I apologize, for insinuating such a ridiculous notion. I ASS-U-MED you were speaking on behalf of your HOA, thus YOUR fining procedure (or lack thereof), otherwise you shouldn’t have provided the “legal advice” that you had. I HAVE NO “LEGAL QUALIFICATION”. I wasn’t providing you (anyone else) with LEGAL ADVICE. You’ll need to hire an HOA attorney to provide you with that type of advice. I was doubtful as too your interpretation of the governing documents. First of all, I DON’T NEED TO BE HOA ATTORNEY TO GIVE MY INTERPRETATION OF YOUR GOVERNING DOCUMENTS! Your philosophy about “Compliance Day” is great in theory, however like many GREAT ideas; it certainly wouldn’t be very practical. I don’t believe any board should have to “hold their hand” to achieve compliance. Abiding by the governing documents, CCR&E, By-laws and R/R are what govern our community as they have the “LEGAL WEIGHT” of which I speak of. So basically you’re saying you can break the rules as (or until Tuesday?) long as you don’t get caught?! HMMMMM, I don’t think that would be in the best interest of my community. I will stick to the fining processes that the builder had chosen in a means to achieve compliance within our community. Thanks anyway for your suggestion. Best of luck. Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

StephanieB3
(Georgia)

Posts:29

11/20/2007 11:21 AM
Good point Brad. We certainly don't want to give that impression. In fact, we mail the resident several letters in order for them to correct the problem before we have to fine them. In this case, if they do get a fine, they brought it on themselves. Our main goal is to keep the standard of living we signed up for when we bought our properties.

StephanieB3
(Georgia)

Posts:29

11/20/2007 11:23 AM
Kudos to you Chuck W.!!!

DavidH4

Posts:0

11/20/2007 12:18 PM
Brad, I have a copy of that Florida Statute and our Association has an Attorney well versed in that area. He holds us to the line on anything that is in the "gray area". He also is consulted on each and every fine that we issue. Once a fine is issued, the "Homeowner" has the right to an appeal to the "Covenants Committee" who has the final word. Believe me, no fines are issued until all other means have been exhausted. Some people just don't get it. We live in a Community that is governed with "COVENANTS, CONDITIONS AND RESTRICTIONS" and each Homeowner signed a contract to abide by those CCR'S or be subject to legal action. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. Dave PCB Fl

DavidH4

Posts:0

11/20/2007 12:21 PM
Oh, I have read it

PatH4
(Arizona)

Posts:17

11/21/2007 12:30 PM
What I said was FINES are illegal in CONTRACT LAW....so if you want to levy and collect fines (which are really damages), you must file in court, PROVE to the Judge how the Christmas lights have harmed the HOA and then....... By the way, how do the Christmas lights harm the HOA? Pat www.CHORE.us

CharlesW1
(Georgia)

Posts:826

11/21/2007 1:57 PM
Posted By PatH4 on 11/21/2007 12:30 PM What I said was FINES are illegal in CONTRACT LAW....so if you want to levy and collect fines (which are really damages), you must file in court, PROVE to the Judge how the Christmas lights have harmed the HOA and then....... By the way, how do the Christmas lights harm the HOA? Pat www.CHORE.us PatH4 I apologize. Apparently, I’ve misinterpreted your post. I really don’t know the difference between the two, I guess. I personally don’t have a problem with x-mas lights. The decorations themselves don’t immediately affect the HOA however the decoration when displayed during inappropriate times of the year do affect property values for all the lot/unit owners. For example if Christmas lights and/or decorations were displaying in the middle of June, while the house just down the road was attempting to sell there house it certainly would make a HUGE difference (financially) for the person purchasing as well as the seller. The HOA has these R/R, By-laws and CC&R to maintain property values for all its residents. Please remember that many board members reside within the association also, and they too have to abide by the governing documents, and they also my think its rather ridiculous, but they realize it may potentially increase their property values also. Chuck W.

Charles E. Wafer Jr.

PatH4
(Arizona)

Posts:17

11/21/2007 2:59 PM
Well I would certainly hope that Board members actually reside in the community they are reigning over and that it is recognized the Board must abide by the governing documents.. Here goes the old line about "property values". I apparently don't know how to communicate with you so before everyone becomes very bored, I will simply withdraw since it is obvious you keep turning this discussion toward other issues from the original issue. Maybe someday you will admit about contract law, fines, etc. Pat www.CHORE.us

PaulM
(Pennsylvania)

Posts:1347

11/21/2007 3:03 PM
PatH4: You ask, ... How do Christmas lights harm the HOA? Perhaps in your thinking and mine, they don't; however, that isn't the issue. We are all bound by the restrictions in our CC&Rs, official documents, and if the docs say no Christmas lights, then no lights--or whatever else the documents may restrict. Certainly, fines can be applied to the violator by virtue of the fact that the documents give authority to the Board to enforce the restrictions whatever they may be. The 'usual manner of enforcement' is to follow a process (as the CC&Rs dictate) of notification by letter/s, perhaps a hearing, and then a decision by the Board on whether to levy a fine against the violator. Perhaps your statement..." if you want to levy and collect fines (which are really damages), you must file in court..." is the process in your state and perhaps in your association, but not in all states nor all associations.

PatH4
(Arizona)

Posts:17

11/21/2007 3:31 PM
I give up... No it has nothing to do with my state or your state but obviously I am writing clear enough for all of you. I am talking about CONTRACT LAW....is it different in your State?? I don't think so, but then stranger things have happened. And I never said you couldn't ENFORCE, what I said is you can't collect, nor does the homeowner have an obligation to pay UNLESS you file a COURT ACTION. Pat www.CHORE.us

PatH4
(Arizona)

Posts:17

11/21/2007 3:34 PM
Maybe if those who question me or do not understand would go to the dictionary and look up DAMAGES and look up FINES, then it will become much clearer. Pat www.CHORE.us

StephanieB3
(Georgia)

Posts:29

11/22/2007 3:11 PM
You don't seem to understand that it has nothing to do with a dictionary. The point is...if you (and I mean that generically) don't want to abide by the rules of the Association, then don't move to a neighborhood with a HOA. That will end all of the problems for people who don't want to comply with the rules. You don't seem to get that when these people moved into the neighborhood they signed and agreed to abide by the rules. That's a verbal and written contract which, in the case of a HOA, means that they can be fines for breaking that contract and that fine can and will be enforced. Why even start all of this trouble with a HOA. If you don't want to abide by the rules then build a home on some land where you can do whatever you want. I really don't understand why this even has to be an issue. It's almost as if you are looking for someone to fight with you about this. The simple solution is --- DON'T MOVE TO A COMMUNITY WITH A HOMEOWNERS ASSOCIATION. There --- problem solved!

MicheleD
(Kentucky)

Posts:4491

11/22/2007 8:08 PM
PatH4 said: "Soon maybe there would be no need to employ a bunch of Gladys Kravitz' Oh and by the way, my only frustration is in dealing with out of control Kings and Queens who definitely prove that Lord Acton was absolutely correct... " Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we heard from this poster before? Under different monikers? Maybe not. Certainly has a very similar TONE and argumentative stance in his posts. I'm looking at the message at the top of the forums and it reads: "Welcome to HOATalk.com! 'A positive place for community association leaders to share ideas and learn.'" So my question to you, PatH4 is, which position of leadership do you maintain in your association? And which positive direction or advice are you giving when you resort to bashing associations as groups of "Gladys Kravitzes" or "control Kings and Queens"? Certainly cautioning HOA or COA leaders to be sure of their purposes, reasons, and abilities to fine is one thing, accusing those that do of being control freaks or worse is quite another. Oh yes, and then flippantly calling posters who are not quite sure how to take your comments as stupid or lacking in comprehension ability is positive sharing of ideas -- um -- in what way, exactly?

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