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Subject: HOA only giving 6 days notice for meeting
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JeremyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:122


01/18/2019 10:19 AM  
Our bylaws state there must be a minimum of 10 days notice for the letter to be DELIVERED before the meeting.
They're mailing out a notice today for a meeting on 1/28, so it'll be 5-7 days notice.

Does this make the meeting invalid or what happens?
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2465


01/18/2019 10:35 AM  
If it goes out today and everyone gets it tomorrow (assuming you don't have any out of town homeowners), I don't see a problem. You also have to factor in Sunday where mail isn't delivered and sometimes weather - as I write this, the northeast and Midwest are about to be socked by a snowstorm, which may affect deliver of any mail, depending on how bad it gets. That's why I would have sent it out earlier this week, but getting it 7 days in advance isn't necessarily bad (anything less than that IS a problem).

Does that make the meeting invalid? That might depend on what type of meeting it is - a special homeowners meeting or annual meeting should have more notice than 10 days in my opinion, but if the board usually meets on the same day and time every month (e.g. 3rd Wednesday of the month at 6pm), people should already know when that meeting will be held.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6350


01/18/2019 11:12 AM  
What KIND of meeting, Jeremy? Board? Members? Special board or members meeting?
JeremyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:122


01/18/2019 11:22 AM  
It's an annual homeowners meeting.
SueW6
(Michigan)

Posts:491


01/18/2019 11:22 AM  
If people show up and no one objects, its a valid meeting.

Why would you nitpick this deadline?
JeremyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:122


01/18/2019 11:23 AM  
Bylaws section 2.5:

Notice of Meetings
Notice shall be delivered not less than 10 nor more than 60 days before the date of such meeting.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8268


01/18/2019 12:10 PM  
I believe the clock starts the day the mailing was postmarked, not delivered. Postmarked the 18th for a meeting on the 28th is 10 days.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1208


01/18/2019 12:28 PM  
Is this important, Jeremy?
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3518


01/18/2019 5:45 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 01/18/2019 12:28 PM
Is this important, Jeremy?



The date starts when it was delivered to the Post Office. not the postmarked date. There is no business days, only calendar days, so they are within letter of the law.

Been there, Done that
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1393


01/18/2019 7:21 PM  
I would expect that only way to make the meeting invalid would be if someone where to sue. I would assume that is not very likely to whether the meeting meets the technical requirements, it will proceed to occur and the results will be considered as fact.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8268


01/19/2019 7:18 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 01/18/2019 12:28 PM
Is this important, Jeremy?




I am asking the same question?
MarkM31
(Washington)

Posts:443


01/19/2019 9:25 AM  
Posted By SueW6 on 01/18/2019 11:22 AM
If people show up and no one objects, its a valid meeting.

Why would you nitpick this deadline?




It doesn't matter that people show up, it matters if everybody who wished to show up did because there was proper notification as per the CC&Rs. There are HOAs where you could have a meeting with a days notice, and the loud rabble would show and carry the day.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2897


01/20/2019 4:34 PM  
Posted By SheliaH on 01/18/2019 10:35 AM
If it goes out today and everyone gets it tomorrow (assuming you don't have any out of town homeowners), I don't see a problem. You also have to factor in Sunday where mail isn't delivered and sometimes weather - as I write this, the northeast and Midwest are about to be socked by a snowstorm, which may affect deliver of any mail, depending on how bad it gets. That's why I would have sent it out earlier this week, but getting it 7 days in advance isn't necessarily bad (anything less than that IS a problem).

Monday is also a federal holiday.

I think this is a problem and I don't understand how people can say it's no big deal. Especially if an election is to take place. Entire elections in Florida associations have been thrown out with a do-over imposed due to improper meeting notice.

The only exception I'm aware of is if everyone entitled to notice waives that notice in writing. I would scream bloody murder if I was an out-of-state owner who wished to exercise my rights at the meeting and was deprived of adequate notice.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2897


01/20/2019 5:26 PM  
I'm trying to look for a citation re. elections being thrown out by Florida's DBPR for insufficient notice but haven't found anything yet. I don't have the time tonight to look further so for now I take that part back.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1208


01/20/2019 6:27 PM  
Again, are we nitting over a day? Two?
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2897


01/20/2019 6:47 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 01/20/2019 6:27 PM
Again, are we nitting over a day? Two?

Is it Florida Statutes 720 or 591? Just a few digits to nitpick over.

It's legal notice spelled out explicitly in the statutes. Following the law as one is required to do isn't nitpicking.

Interestingly enough, putting the wrong year on an annual meeting notice has been ruled trivial and inconsequential when it's an honest typo, given that such notices vary very little from year to year and it's easy to make a mistake. I think not providing the correct notice by a clear deadline is a willful violation, not a typo or honest mistake.

There have been board member recalls that have been certified because the notice of the board meeting to consider the recall wasn't given within the 5 days called for by the statute. In one case that notice was given on day 6 and the board forfeited its chance to contest the recall vote because 5 days does not mean 6.
JeremyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:122


01/20/2019 7:58 PM  
The letter has not been received yet, so the earliest I could get it is Tuesday 1/22...and the meetings scheduled for 1/28. That's 6 days notice, and our bylaws say it must be DELIVERED a minimum of 10 days.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1208


01/20/2019 8:44 PM  
And, again ... these are volunteers ...

Our Pres was two days late this year ... he’s 84 yrs old ... take him to court?

Willful? Really?
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2897


01/20/2019 8:51 PM  
Yes. Really. There's a duty in there somewhere to abide by the statutes.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8082


01/20/2019 8:52 PM  
Wait a MINIMUM of 10 days? Well 6 days meets that doesn't it? What is the big deal? Honestly, need to tell us why it's such a big deal? It's a meeting to make decisions. Make it or not.

Former HOA President
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:1208


01/20/2019 8:54 PM  
Geno - that is nonsensical and irrational.
JeremyM3
(North Carolina)

Posts:122


01/20/2019 9:17 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/20/2019 8:52 PM
Wait a MINIMUM of 10 days? Well 6 days meets that doesn't it? What is the big deal? Honestly, need to tell us why it's such a big deal? It's a meeting to make decisions. Make it or not.




Melissa, if a letter is delivered 6 days before the annual meeting, and the bylaws say the letter needs to be delivered at least 10 days before the meeting, then no it doesn't meet the criteria.
Everyone that wants to attend should have the opportunity to do so.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2897


01/20/2019 9:55 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 01/20/2019 8:54 PM
Geno - that is nonsensical and irrational.

How so? Jeremy isn't in Florida so this is inapplicable, but in Florida:

"The bylaws shall provide for giving notice to members of all member meetings, and if they do not do so shall be deemed to provide the following: The association shall give all parcel owners and members actual notice of all membership meetings, which shall be mailed, delivered, or electronically transmitted to the members not less than 14 days prior to the meeting. Evidence of compliance with this 14-day notice shall be made by an affidavit executed by the person providing the notice and filed upon execution among the official records of the association."

It's not a properly noticed meeting if it's sent out 13 days in advance (or fewer). If you're willing to ignore the law there, what other laws will you ignore when they're not convenient? Abiding by clear and simple legal requirements is irrational, that's a good one.

All of the above is notwithstanding the fact that Jeremy isn't in Florida, I think legal notice requirements are probably similar in most states.
SueW6
(Michigan)

Posts:491


01/21/2019 5:09 AM  
Again- only if someone objects at the meeting would it be an issue. (Waiver of Notice)

JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8268


01/21/2019 6:33 AM  
Jeremy has had issues with his BOD and I expect he believes this is one more.
SamE2
(New Jersey)

Posts:91


01/21/2019 6:36 AM  
Geno according to your post the clock starts when the noticed was delivered to the post office. If that is the case and they delivered when they said they would they met their obligation.
MarkM31
(Washington)

Posts:443


01/21/2019 7:50 AM  
Posted By SueW6 on 01/21/2019 5:09 AM
Again- only if someone objects at the meeting would it be an issue. (Waiver of Notice)





No, it's better put that it's not an issue if everybody agrees that it is not an issue. Just because somebody doesn't complain doesn't mean they agree, it could mean that they are not complaining because they do not know of the event because of lack of notification.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8082


01/21/2019 8:12 AM  
People will attend a meeting in 6 days just as much as they will in 10. People who want to be at the meeting will make arrangements to be when scheduled or request notes. If your excuse is going to be "The attendance is low because of improper notice" then that is what your already attributing the problem to. So no matter what any one says it's going to be that as a reason. It can't be "apathy", weather, health issues, or work schedule. Nope it's just going to be "Not enough notice".

So stop this kind of thinking. Attributing things when they haven't even existed yet. I just quit my job over a boss who would do this. Attribute reasons company was doing bad due to people not following procedures. It was their job to make sure we followed them. However, the issues were much more than that. (The procedures were outdated and no time to read them). The focus of the needs of the customer/employees were being ignored.

The same thing applies to HOA's. Attributing the fault is one thing, person, or board is lacking the focus on the overall picture. If people want to go to the meetings, they will whether or not notified in the "legal" time line.

Former HOA President
MarkM31
(Washington)

Posts:443


01/21/2019 8:19 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/21/2019 8:12 AM
People will attend a meeting in 6 days just as much as they will in 10..




And you know that how?
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:8082


01/21/2019 8:28 AM  
Having enough meetings over time lead me to that conclusion. It's like going to the dentist. Do you always make your appointments for teeth cleanings or when your tooth hurts? If they give an option for an appointment in 6 days for your cleaning or 10 which one do you take? Which one for the sore tooth? 6 or 10?


Former HOA President
MarkM31
(Washington)

Posts:443


01/21/2019 8:33 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/21/2019 8:28 AM
Having enough meetings over time lead me to that conclusion.





It's a conclusion, not a fact. The CC&R require one thing.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2465


01/21/2019 12:05 PM  
Posted By GenoS on 01/20/2019 4:34 PM
Posted By SheliaH on 01/18/2019 10:35 AM
If it goes out today and everyone gets it tomorrow (assuming you don't have any out of town homeowners), I don't see a problem. You also have to factor in Sunday where mail isn't delivered and sometimes weather - as I write this, the northeast and Midwest are about to be socked by a snowstorm, which may affect deliver of any mail, depending on how bad it gets. That's why I would have sent it out earlier this week, but getting it 7 days in advance isn't necessarily bad (anything less than that IS a problem).

Monday is also a federal holiday.

I think this is a problem and I don't understand how people can say it's no big deal. Especially if an election is to take place. Entire elections in Florida associations have been thrown out with a do-over imposed due to improper meeting notice.

The only exception I'm aware of is if everyone entitled to notice waives that notice in writing. I would scream bloody murder if I was an out-of-state owner who wished to exercise my rights at the meeting and was deprived of adequate notice.




I said IF everyone received the letter the next day, it wouldn't be a problem, and I stand by that. I also said I would have sent it earlier in the week because when bad weather is in the forecast, one has to anticipate possible delays (which would affect out of state owners more than local ones). I know Jeremy said he hadn't yet received the letter, but no one knows if that holds true for everyone else. This shouldn't be a huge issue - when the letter shows up, I would notify the board and express concern that a six-day notice is cutting it close, so how about rescheduling it (or at least the elections) for the same day and time next week, to ensure everyone has received it? Or I'd make that suggestion at the meeting, asking why the letter went out late to start with. Personally, I find that people make time to do the things that are really important to them so whether I got a 6, 10 or 30-day notice, I'd probably go anyway, but that's just me. In this case, there won't be a problem if enough people show up to make a quorum so elections can be held.

(By the way, Jeremy, did you even ask why the letter was being mailed so close to the meeting date when you found out when it was being sent? If so, what was the response?)

SueW6
(Michigan)

Posts:491


01/21/2019 12:31 PM  
Re: number of days’ notice:

Roberts Rules says that “the number of days is computed by counting all calendar days( including holidays and weekends) , excluding the day of the meeting but including the day of the mailing”
SueW6
(Michigan)

Posts:491


01/21/2019 1:56 PM  
Here’s a possible scenario:

President calls meeting to order.

“Mr President! Point of Order!”

“The chair recognizes Mr Green”

“Mr President, I didn’t get the notice of this meeting within the number of days required in our CCRs. Therefore I call this meeting invalid and illegal to hold.”

“Mr Green, the letters of notice were postmarked on _____. The day before the meeting is the date ______.

Therefore .....

1. The Notice requirement was met. The meeting continues on at this time.

Or

2. The Notice timeline was not met. A motion to adjourn the meeting to another day and time will be accepted at this time. (Motion and Vote taken) This meeting is now adjourned.
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