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Subject: Unit Owner Fine Hearings in CT
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LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 9:08 AM  
I am currently the President of our HOA condos. I have a question on Fine hearings. I understand fine hearings have to happen to allow us to fine the unit owner for not following the rules. Is there any way the hearing can take place without the unit owners around. I looked on the Ct.gov website for the rule and its states held during a regular or a special meeting of the executive board. Please help with definition of regular and special Executive board meeting. My understanding is a special meeting is just of the directors. Is that how we can not have the unit owners around. TYIA..

AugustinD


Posts:1785


12/16/2018 9:15 AM  
LisaD6, the purpose of the hearing is to give the accused "due process." Among other things, "due process" means giving the accused a chance to defend her- or himself at a hearing with the accusers present. Both the accused and accuser need to be reasonable about when the hearing happens. It's okay for the accused to attend by phone.

"Due process" is a constitutionally protected right. An agency (including a HOA) cannot take away 'property rights' (including imposing fines) without due process.

I believe HOA case law backs this up 100%.

If in further doubt, speak with your HOA's attorney.
AugustinD


Posts:1785


12/16/2018 9:17 AM  
Pardon. I think I misread. If you mean you want the meeting closed to the rest of the HOA membership, then you can and should close this to the rest of the membership via an executive session of the board, with only the accuser (the HOA usually) and accused present.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6418


12/16/2018 9:30 AM  
If Augustine's second interpretation is what you mean, Lisa, I agree with him. But, also, are HOA boards of directors called "executive boards" in CT?

I'm trying to understand if the board's meeting with the alleged violating owner is to be in an executive session meeting in CT as in most states.
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 9:37 AM  
Thats not what the question was.. I want to know does the whole association have to be present during a fine hearing. And how can it be done if so.. TY
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 9:39 AM  
Yes hen we go to talk about foreclosures , contractors and such we go into the executive part. Im trying to see if we can have a meeting that is not done the same time as the board meeting to discuss fine hearings. so I want to know if anyone in ct knows the definition of the Special Meetings we can have for Board meetings. TY
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 9:43 AM  
OOPs the ending of that post was confusing. The definition os a special meeting so we dont have to have the fine meeting when the board meeting happens which we go into executive session with. I hope that makes sense.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8434


12/16/2018 10:39 AM  
Lisa

While I cannot tell you how it is done in CT, I have experience in other states. Once a fine has been issued, the accused has the right to demand a hearing in front of the BOD. Typically these hearings are done in a Private or Executive session of the BOD set up to address the fine and only the fine. Other owners are not privy to these hearings.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6418


12/16/2018 10:46 AM  
I don't know what states JohnC's talking about, but in CA fines only can be issued by the board AFTER an owner has had a chance to present their side of the story to the board in Executive session.

I'm thinking that Lisa means this: In her HOA or perhaps in CT, boards must adjourn to executive session FROM a regular or special meeting of the board. After the Ex. session., the board adjourns form this and resumes the special or regular board meeting.

(In CA and other states, executive sessions may be held entirely separately from other types of board meetings.)
RoyalP


Posts:0


12/16/2018 10:53 AM  
ditto john and kerry
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6418


12/16/2018 11:12 AM  
But, RoyalP, I just disagreed with JohnC, so don't know how you can agree with both of us. It's clear that Lisa is confused enough!
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:8434


12/16/2018 11:54 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/16/2018 10:46 AM
I don't know what states JohnC's talking about, but in CA fines only can be issued by the board AFTER an owner has had a chance to present their side of the story to the board in Executive session.

I'm thinking that Lisa means this: In her HOA or perhaps in CT, boards must adjourn to executive session FROM a regular or special meeting of the board. After the Ex. session., the board adjourns form this and resumes the special or regular board meeting.

(In CA and other states, executive sessions may be held entirely separately from other types of board meetings.)




In SC we can issue fines without a hearing, The hearing takes place if the owner appeals the decision. Plus we can do all this via Email.....got to love SC.
RoyalP


Posts:0


12/16/2018 1:28 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/16/2018 11:12 AM
But, RoyalP, I just disagreed with JohnC, so don't know how you can agree with both of us. It's clear that Lisa is confused enough!




The point is that issues regarding a fine are handled in executive session.

There evidently are fine distinctions which vary state by state.

but

Fines are handled 'in private' by the BOD in 'executive closed session'.
RoyalP


Posts:0


12/16/2018 1:29 PM  
ps. @kerry:
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 2:29 PM  
Royal IP ACTUALLY my main question.is What is A special meeting and regular meeting. Definition per the state statuteswe HAVE To follow. I understand having a board meeting going into executivesession. I'm not confused by all posted. I'm,just wishing someone from CT knows what canbefollowedbefore I have a meeting with our management company. Information would be nice before the meeting I have to have. Ty
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 2:31 PM  
And I have researched and researched this subject...
RoyalP


Posts:0


12/16/2018 3:17 PM  
My 'best guess' would be a specially called executive session for the purpose of addressing one particular issue.

however

? What does the corporate attorney say ?

RoyalP


Posts:0


12/16/2018 3:21 PM  
SPECIAL VS REGULAR

CA Spec VS Reg


good luck
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6418


12/16/2018 3:44 PM  
The thing is, RoyalP, that Lisa is in CT, not CA. BUT, from various postings on this forum form different states, a special meeting of the board is simply one that can't wait till a regular meeting of the board. A "regular meeting" of the board is one that's on a regular schedule like quarterly or annually as stated in the HOA's bylaws. Our HOA, for instance, must have a regular meeting of the board quarterly, but we have a lot of business so we have a schedule of regular meetings of the board the last Tuesday of the month. In CA regular and special meetings of the board must be open to Owners.

Executive session meetings are closed to the membership (Owners). What Lisa needs to find out is: Can the board have an executive session whenever it wants to?? Look at your bylaws, Lisa, or CT corporation code because your HOA probably is a corporation.

If your property manager cannot answer this question re: CT, s/he should be fired.

(where JohnC & I disagree, RoyP, is that he says the fine is issued first and then there's a private hearing. In many states though, the private hearing, as a part of due process, is held first and then a penalty is or isn't stated by the board.)

LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 4:14 PM  
Ihae researched the heck out of this.. I was hoping I might find a board member in ct who can say. Yes in ct You can have special meetings of the board with o,my notifying the board members and person with the fine hearing. No association involved. Not looking to firing management.. Want to make sure we are following the right procedure.. What started this for me. Manager has his girl tell me fine hearings have to happen during meetings. For three years he's been doing them in his office.. I ask him why at meeting. I go new statuteswe goesyes.,I go I want copy of what it is.still no copy sent to me after asking three dirt ways for them. Me I don't we,t to have meeting with all association.forfines... And I think manager lied.cause all statutes are dated back to 2012... I want to have a plan when I call him out on his lie. Unless someoneonhere can show me the new statute for fine hearings with the 828. Me I think he got introubleand learned he needed to change..but that's another issue. Not looking to firing him.
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 4:15 PM  
Ihae researched the heck out of this.. I was hoping I might find a board member in ct who can say. Yes in ct You can have special meetings of the board with o,my notifying the board members and person with the fine hearing. No association involved. Not looking to firing management.. Want to make sure we are following the right procedure.. What started this for me. Manager has his girl tell me fine hearings have to happen during meetings. For three years he's been doing them in his office.. I ask him why at meeting. I go new statuteswe goesyes.,I go I want copy of what it is.still no copy sent to me after asking three dirt ways for them. Me I don't we,t to have meeting with all association.forfines... And I think manager lied.cause all statutes are dated back to 2012... I want to have a plan when I call him out on his lie. Unless someoneonhere can show me the new statute for fine hearings with the 828. Me I think he got introubleand learned he needed to change..but that's another issue. Not looking to firing him.
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 4:18 PM  

LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 4:22 PM  
Not looking to fire manager. Oh lordy. to watch what our manager has to go through with our Association people.. I'm looking for away to do a fine hearing without having it during a board meeting. Like a special meeting. Hoping someone from CT can help.ty
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 4:28 PM  
...
RoyalP


Posts:0


12/16/2018 7:32 PM  
to repeat:

https://masterofmeetings.com/index2/what-is-the-difference-between-an-ordinary-meeting-and-a-special-meeting


MEETINGS


@ 100 ~ OUT
RoyalP


Posts:0


12/16/2018 7:54 PM  
Specific to Connecticut:

CHAPTER 602
NONSTOCK CORPORATIONS

CORP LAW

Sec. 33-1095. Meetings. (a) The board of directors may hold regular or special meetings in or out of this state.

Sec. 33-1098. Notice of meeting. (a) Unless the certificate of incorporation or bylaws provide otherwise, regular meetings of the board of directors may be held without notice of the date, time, place or purpose of the meeting, except that, unless stated in a written notice of the meeting, no bylaw may be brought up for adoption, amendment or repeal. {a 'special' meeting of the BOD requires proper notification}


The only mention of 'special meeting' refers to a special meeting of the MEMBERS. {not the BOD}


therefor, IMO,

reg.sch. BOD meetings require no notice

an important/unscheduled/special BOD meeting requires specific notice

FINING / member issues should be handled in closed/executive BOD meetings by EITHER adjourning to exec. session from a scheduled meeting OR calling/noticing a 'special' BOD executive meeting.
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:712


12/16/2018 8:46 PM  
Lisa, The way my HOA holds hearings against homeowners is during the executive session, the part that owners aren't in attendance. If you have one or more hearings scheduled make the others waiting, wait outside the room. Hold each hearing for privacy sake so the other won't know whats is said, then after you clear all your hearings, conduct the meat and potatoes portion of your executive session.
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/16/2018 9:21 PM  
TY Royal IP and LETA.. Executive session it will be. This way it protects the board members and manager. It deft. will need to be private. OR the unit owner having the fine hearing can send lawyers after us. That I understand. Then the whole board can vote right there what is to happen. I will now have information to discuss with the manager. And we will go forward from that discussion.

Here is a little more information of what I've been through with fine hearings. When I first came on the board three years ago, the old management company would have the fine hearings in the open forum for unit owners before we went into the executive session. IT was a lynching for me. They would all gang up on me . Had me in tears after they left the meeting.. The manager would not back me up. At that point I came on the board to clean house. They were fired for major reasons this was not one of them. We found the present manager. I explained my concerns of the lynchings and asked if the meetings could be done dift. He explained he had them at his office. Then he would let us know what came from the meeting. Perfect. Now I;m told the meetings have to be done at the board meetings and me I'm like AGHGHGHGHHG!!!. All he said at the last meeting something about some case and then he told me yes the statute changed. I have been searching and searching for that statute change and he has not sent it to me. These meetings will be him only talking and the board will not be saying anything. Some of the owners are very vicious and have no mercy towards me. I just got voted on the board for three more years with many of the owners backing me by votes and proxies They like my vision of change. but when owners get a fine hearing they automatically think it's me and its not.( the viscious ones) Management notices the things they are doing wrong and they ignore the three to four letters they get. So in all I think this will turn out for the best. I'm all about documentation. And now we can document the fine hearings. Thanks.

If there was only a way of taming the visious ones who want their young kids to play in the back yards alone, leave their bikes all over the grass and park 5 vehicles in the lot.. Before I came on everyone was doing whatever they wanted the place looked in shambles and we were at 3000 in the reserves. we now have 50,000 in reserves and we have done much improvements, sidewalk, roof, sewer panel and sewer pump with no assessments. I got a woods of trees cut down for free. and on and on. And even the guy who collects our garbage commented how hes seen the changes be good. But we had to put all the rules into play by adding them into our rules. We would always hear thats not in the rule book. So I made the rules legal.. So hence the viscious ones hate lisa. I put the rules into words and the board worked on them approved to go out to unit owners and all done legal. This process took three years. I saved about 20,000 in lawyers fees creating the rules. So its been a brutal three years. Hopefully now it will calm down. No more rule making I'm on strike from that..
thanks for reading.
SueW6
(Michigan)

Posts:503


12/17/2018 8:27 AM  
Back to the original issue:

A Special Meeting can be noticed with the agenda to be 1) a discussion of the rules for fines and 2) to go into Exc. Session to discuss specific fining cases.
RoyalP


Posts:0


12/17/2018 8:56 AM  
PERFECT
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6418


12/17/2018 9:41 AM  
Well, RoyalP, I think your "FINING / member issues should be handled in closed/executive BOD meetings by EITHER adjourning to exec. session from a scheduled meeting OR calling/noticing a 'special' BOD executive meeting" is perfect.

I hope Lisa appreciates your doing the work to find this.
AugustinD


Posts:1785


12/17/2018 9:55 AM  
Posted By LisaD6 on 12/16/2018 9:21 PM
Here is a little more information of what I've been through with fine hearings. When I first came on the board three years ago, the old management company would have the fine hearings in the open forum for unit owners before we went into the executive session. IT was a lynching for me. They would all gang up on me . Had me in tears after they left the meeting.. The manager would not back me up. At that point I came on the board to clean house. They were fired for major reasons this was not one of them. We found the present manager.


LisaD6, you rock for rectifying this disgusting, fifth grade behavior by a former board. I think said behavior not only is destructive to building a sense of "community"; I think it also held the HOA out to liability. I hereby nominate you for the HoaTalk.Com Director of the Month award. Good luck and happy holidays. -- Augie
LetA
(Nevada)

Posts:712


12/17/2018 11:18 AM  
Your next order of business Lisa should be to fire your property management company.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3650


12/17/2018 11:26 AM  
Posted By LetA on 12/17/2018 11:18 AM
Your next order of business Lisa should be to fire your property management company.



I believe you are out of line. Why are you suggesting their first order of business is to fire the management company, WHEN it was the OLD management company that may have given them conflicting information.


Been there, Done that
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3650


12/17/2018 11:34 AM  
What should happen is that the individual(s) subject to a fine be called to a hearing. In California, it doesn't have to be a Board, it could be a fining committee or an Architectural Committee, whose charter give them the authority to hold hearings. You could have an Executive Committee made up of one Board to hear such cases.

The Board would have final authority on imposing fines and these actually could be voted on in open session using an APN or account number as identification.

I don't agree with John's interpretation of due process. It's not after the fact. How would anyone like having a court decide your case without you being there, BUT we'll let you appeal when..ooops, IF, you lose.

Good luck with that.

Been there, Done that
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/17/2018 1:02 PM  
John is correct... A hearinghappens. Then boarddiscusses and decides after the unit owner leaves.then a letter goes out to,owberwithin thirty days with decision. That's stated in statute... Ty
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/17/2018 1:04 PM  
No worries... Our manager can not get fined. I doubt any manager can. I understand why it was said...no worries. Ty
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6418


12/17/2018 1:09 PM  
JohnC wrote:
"In SC we can issue fines without a hearing, The hearing takes place if the owner appeals the decision. Plus we can do all this via Email.....got to love SC."

BUT, John, there are many who don't buy into your belief that Owners should be fined without a hearing, and that boards may vote by email except in emergencies, and that regular board meetings' time/date/place should be publicly noticed in advance so that owners can attend. In fact these are laws in many states.

In my onion any board that will not offer the most openness and transparency possible in their states and documents is trying to hide something.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6418


12/17/2018 1:09 PM  
JohnC wrote:
"In SC we can issue fines without a hearing, The hearing takes place if the owner appeals the decision. Plus we can do all this via Email.....got to love SC."

BUT, John, there are many who don't buy into your belief that Owners should be fined without a hearing, and that boards may vote by email except in emergencies, and that regular board meetings' time/date/place should be publicly noticed in advance so that owners can attend. In fact these are laws in many states.

In my onion any board that will not offer the most openness and transparency possible in their states and documents is trying to hide something.
RoyalP


Posts:0


12/17/2018 1:17 PM  
direct from 'my' CCRs:

Section 3. Fines. In addition to all other remedies, in the sole discretion of the Board of
Directors of the Association, a fine or fines may be imposed upon an Owner for failure of an
Owner, his family, guests, invitees, or employees to comply with any covenant, restriction, rule or
regulation, provided the following procedures are adhered to:
(a) Notice: The Association shall notify the Owner of the infraction or infractions.
Included in the notice shall be date and time of the next Board of Directors meeting at
which time the Owner shall present reasons why penalty or penalties should not be
imposed.
(b) Hearing: The non-compliance shall be presented to the Board of Directors after which
the Board of Directors shall hear reasons why penalties should not be imposed. A
written decision of the Board of Directors shall be submitted to the Owner by not later
than twenty-one (21) days after the Board of Directors meeting.
(c) Penalties: The Board of Directors may impose special assessments against the
Owner's property as follows:
{list of the actual penalties/schedule}


ps. SC is NOT an 'open meeting' state
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3650


12/17/2018 1:22 PM  
Posted By RoyalP on 12/17/2018 1:17 PM
direct from 'my' CCRs:

Section 3. Fines. In addition to all other remedies, in the sole discretion of the Board of
Directors of the Association, a fine or fines may be imposed upon an Owner for failure of an
Owner, his family, guests, invitees, or employees to comply with any covenant, restriction, rule or
regulation, provided the following procedures are adhered to:
(a) Notice: The Association shall notify the Owner of the infraction or infractions.
Included in the notice shall be date and time of the next Board of Directors meeting at
which time the Owner shall present reasons why penalty or penalties should not be
imposed.
(b) Hearing: The non-compliance shall be presented to the Board of Directors after which
the Board of Directors shall hear reasons why penalties should not be imposed. A
written decision of the Board of Directors shall be submitted to the Owner by not later
than twenty-one (21) days after the Board of Directors meeting.
(c) Penalties: The Board of Directors may impose special assessments against the
Owner's property as follows:
{list of the actual penalties/schedule}


ps. SC is NOT an 'open meeting' state



SO, who actually present the reasons WHY a penalty shouldn't be imposed? Same people who wrote the ticket? Sounds fair to me, what say you?

Been there, Done that
RoyalP


Posts:0


12/17/2018 5:15 PM  
No, the person(s) accused of the violation may 'plead their case' and/or present any evidence IN PERSON.

D'OH
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6418


12/17/2018 5:35 PM  
Agree with RoyP's reading of this. But it's only in his CC&Rs in SC. Yes, RoyP, I know SC is a closed meeting state or almost, which JohnC loves.

Apparently JohnC's CC&Rs or bylaws in SC re: hearings say the board can do whatever it jolly-well pleases, as JohnC likes to say. It's attitudes like that that give HOAs a bad name.
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3650


12/17/2018 7:09 PM  
It appears there is new legislation coming to South Carolina....https://www.nexsenpruet.com/insights/2018-sc-hoa-legislation


Been there, Done that
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3650


12/17/2018 7:22 PM  
Posted By RoyalP on 12/17/2018 5:15 PM
No, the person(s) accused of the violation may 'plead their case' and/or present any evidence IN PERSON.

D'OH



So, if there is no authority to fine in the CCRs, can a Board in S.C. fine an owner?

Been there, Done that
RoyalP


Posts:0


12/17/2018 7:23 PM  
It has passed.

Very 'bare bones'.

Deals primarily with the (new) requirement that ALL documents INCLUDING rules and regulations MUST be recorded else UNENFORCEABLE.

Establishes an 'ombudsman' under the auspices of the attorney general.



A good start.
LisaD6
(Connecticut)

Posts:57


12/17/2018 8:02 PM  
How has south caroli,a enforced rules if they couldn't fine up til now. Wow
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