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Subject: PETS
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Author Messages
LaverneB
(Florida)

Posts:62


10/30/2018 9:12 AM  
Our docs say no animals allowed / now the board is letting "emotional support" animals in. Don't the docs have to voted on and changed for this? The next board will follow the rule of no animals BIG problem for the new homeowners who want to buy...thanks
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:750


10/30/2018 9:16 AM  
Lots of threads in the topic ... search on ESA.
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1263


10/30/2018 9:27 AM  
Document provisions that conflict with local, state, or federal law should not be enforced or the association can expect to be on the losing end of a lawsuit. Service animals are certainly protected and should not be considered as pets. The association can still limit certain behavior, but not refuse outright to allow service animals. I am not as sure about ESAs, but as George mentioned, plenty of reading available.

Here you go for starters:
http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/177880/view/topic/Default.aspx
http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/217813/view/topic/Default.aspx
http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/237826/view/topic/Default.aspx

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
TimM11


Posts:212


10/30/2018 9:48 AM  
ESAs are also protected so long as the documentation requirements are met. Federal law supercedes anything your HOA documents say.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2466


10/30/2018 2:17 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 10/30/2018 9:16 AM
Lots of threads in the topic ... search on ESA.

Best answer.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


10/30/2018 2:31 PM  
Posted By LaverneB on 10/30/2018 9:12 AM
Our docs say no animals allowed / now the board is letting "emotional support" animals in. Don't the docs have to voted on and changed for this?

*The next board will follow the rule of no animals BIG problem for the new homeowners who want to buy...thanks*




There is no vote needed to comply with Federal Law. The board can do a simple resolution by the board to intend to comply with this Federal Law and make it part of the by-laws.

If that is not done, they can still follow the Federal Law and the next board would be really stupid not to allow ESAs.
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1263


10/30/2018 7:16 PM  
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/30/2018 2:31 PM
Posted By LaverneB on 10/30/2018 9:12 AM
Our docs say no animals allowed / now the board is letting "emotional support" animals in. Don't the docs have to voted on and changed for this?

*The next board will follow the rule of no animals BIG problem for the new homeowners who want to buy...thanks*

If that is not done, they can still follow the Federal Law and the next board would be really stupid not to allow ESAs.


It sounds like the really stupid board is soon to be seated.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/30/2018 7:47 PM  
Posted By TimM11 on 10/30/2018 9:48 AM
ESAs are also protected so long as the documentation requirements are met. Federal law supercedes anything your HOA documents say.




EXACTLY CORRECT

A DOCUMENTED ESA is not a pet.

The BOD should/may request a 'certification of need' letter from a mental health professional naming the person for whom the animal is prescribed.

If your 'new' BOD is unaware of requisite legislation which SUPERCEDES the CCRs then they will be very rudely awakened when the HOA is severely fined for violations of said law.

Check with the Corporate Attorney for your legal REQUIREMENTS under HUD and FHA regulations.

ps. said animal is permitted AT the pool area but NOT IN the pool itself

said animal MUST be 'potty trained' and quiet and non-aggressive else it is NOT a reasonable accommodation
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


10/31/2018 3:19 PM  
Posted By RoyalpitA on 10/30/2018 7:47 PM
Posted By TimM11 on 10/30/2018 9:48 AM
ESAs are also protected so long as the documentation requirements are met. Federal law supercedes anything your HOA documents say.




EXACTLY CORRECT

A DOCUMENTED ESA is not a pet.

The BOD should/may request a 'certification of need' letter from a mental health professional naming the person for whom the animal is prescribed.

If your 'new' BOD is unaware of requisite legislation which SUPERCEDES the CCRs then they will be very rudely awakened when the HOA is severely fined for violations of said law.

Check with the Corporate Attorney for your legal REQUIREMENTS under HUD and FHA regulations.

ps. said animal is permitted AT the pool area but NOT IN the pool itself

said animal MUST be 'potty trained' and quiet and non-aggressive else it is NOT a reasonable accommodation




ESAs may not go to the pool or anywhere else pet dogs may not go. That is only service dogs.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


11/01/2018 12:48 AM  
We will NOT at this time reopen the discussion re:

Is an ESA a Service Dog ?

Under whose 'jurisdictional definition' ?

ADA ?

FHA ?

HUD ?

Specific State Law ?

Suffice to say that the Mutt's owner has an EXCELLENT chance should the issue go to court

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:750


11/01/2018 12:55 AM  
Royalpita ...just more of the same yappy-yappy.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


11/01/2018 1:05 AM  
Posted By RoyalpitA on 11/01/2018 12:48 AM
We will NOT at this time reopen the discussion re:

Is an ESA a Service Dog ?

Under whose 'jurisdictional definition' ?

ADA ?

FHA ?

HUD ?

Specific State Law ?

Suffice to say that the Mutt's owner has an EXCELLENT chance should the issue go to court

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




An ESA is not a service dog. I have no idea why it's so hard to understand the difference.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:62


11/01/2018 6:22 AM  
And to clear up what appears to be confusion in the original post, an HOA may legally have a no-pet restriction, but they must allow service animals and ESAs per federal law. Service animal: has special training to perform certain tasks for the owner. ESA: no special training.

Whether the no-pet restriction discourages sales is not relevant as regards federal law. If the CC&Rs currently don't have such a restriction, then they must be amended by vote of the membership (typically 67% or 75% approval needed). The board can't simply enact a rule in this case.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


11/01/2018 7:09 AM  
Posted By JenniferG11 on 11/01/2018 1:05 AM
Posted By RoyalpitA on 11/01/2018 12:48 AM
We will NOT at this time reopen the discussion re:

Is an ESA a Service Dog ?

Under whose 'jurisdictional definition' ?

ADA ?

FHA ?

HUD ?

Specific State Law ?

Suffice to say that the Mutt's owner has an EXCELLENT chance should the issue go to court

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




An ESA is not a service dog. I have no idea why it's so hard to understand the difference.




Did you ever hear of a Mullberry Bush ?

Shall we dance ?


The service the ESA actually performs is: Emotional Support


albeit only for 'woosies'



OVER AND OUT
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:750


11/01/2018 7:47 AM  
Royalpita,

Just more yappy-yappy.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


11/01/2018 9:32 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 11/01/2018 7:47 AM
Royalpita,

Just more yappy-yappy.





https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/SERVANIMALS_NTCFHEO2013-01.PDF

1. Purpose: This notice explains certain obligations of housing providers under the Fair
Housing Act (FHAct), Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (Section 504), and the
Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) with respect to animals that provide assistance to
individuals with disabilities. The Department of Justice's (DOT) amendments to its
regulations' for Titles II and III of the ADA limit the definition of "service animal" under the
ADA to include only dogs, and further define "service animal" to exclude emotional support
animals. This definition, however, does not limit housing providers' obligations to make
reasonable accommodations for assistance animals under the FHAct or Section 504. Persons
with disabilities may request a reasonable accommodation for any assistance animal,
including an emotional support animal, under both the FHAct and Section 504
.



yappy-yappy, once again, backed by actual fact




RoyalpitA


Posts:0


11/01/2018 9:38 AM  
I stand corrected, technically, an ESA is not a service animal covered by the ADA.

However, the ESA must be granted a 'reasonable accommodation' under FHA and HUD (section 504) which apply to HOAs and/or any housing open for public occupancy.

An ESA is in fact an animal performing a service for a disabled person.

A mentally disabled person.



Thank y'all for forcing me to finally understand the issue.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


11/01/2018 9:47 AM  
more yippy-yappy covered under above link:


Section IV. Conclusion
The definition of "service animal" contained in ADA regulations does not limit housing
providers' obligations to grant reasonable accommodation requests for assistance animals in
housing under either the FHAct or {HUD} Section 504. Under these laws, rules, policies, or practices must be modified to permit the use of an assistance animal as a reasonable accommodation in housing when its use may be necessary to afford a person with a disability an equal opportunity to use and enjoy a dwelling and/or the common areas of a dwelling, or may be necessary to allow a qualified individual with a disability to participate in, or benefit from, any housing program or activity receiving financial assistance from HUD.




straight from the horse's mouth (pun intended)
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:750


11/01/2018 10:13 AM  
It’s not about you .... it is about the original poster wanting help.

I’ll say it, again - this site isn’t for your entertainment.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


11/01/2018 10:53 AM  
Posted By LaverneB on 10/30/2018 9:12 AM
Our docs say no animals allowed / now the board is letting "emotional support" animals in. Don't the docs have to voted on and changed for this? The next board will follow the rule of no animals BIG problem for the new homeowners who want to buy...thanks




The ADA and FHAct and HUD 504 ALL over-ride 'your' documents.

The 'board' has no choice but to follow FEDERAL LAW and permit BOTH 'service animals' AND ESAs.

Failure to so do will prove to be a VERY expensive OOPS on the directors' part.

Y'all apparently require legal advice NOW.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


11/01/2018 10:55 AM  
Posted By TimM11 on 10/30/2018 9:48 AM>ESAs are also protected so long as the documentation requirements are met. Federal law supercedes anything your HOA documents say.



RoyalpitA


Posts:0


11/01/2018 10:58 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 11/01/2018 10:13 AM
It’s not about you .... it is about the original poster wanting help.

I’ll say it, again - this site isn’t for your entertainment.





Have I been sufficiently helpful yet ?

Have I politely informed the OP that Federal Law must be followed ?

Did they not know that before this 'thread' ?


SHEEEEEEZ


ps. I am not entertained, I am disgusted.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:7820


11/01/2018 12:42 PM  
My personal opinion is Service Animals are one issue. ESA's are usually just someone trying to pass a pet off.
TimM11


Posts:212


11/02/2018 9:44 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/01/2018 12:42 PM
My personal opinion is Service Animals are one issue. ESA's are usually just someone trying to pass a pet off.




In some cases, sure. But crossing the FHA is unwise.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


11/02/2018 5:16 PM  
Posted By n/a on 11/01/2018 7:09 AM
Posted By JenniferG11 on 11/01/2018 1:05 AM
Posted By RoyalpitA on 11/01/2018 12:48 AM
We will NOT at this time reopen the discussion re:

Is an ESA a Service Dog ?

Under whose 'jurisdictional definition' ?

ADA ?

FHA ?

HUD ?

Specific State Law ?

Suffice to say that the Mutt's owner has an EXCELLENT chance should the issue go to court

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




An ESA is not a service dog. I have no idea why it's so hard to understand the difference.




Did you ever hear of a Mullberry Bush ?

Shall we dance ?


The service the ESA actually performs is: Emotional Support


albeit only for 'woosies'



OVER AND OUT




If they are for 'woosies' then you certainly need one. Saying that and all the other that you do is offensive.

Some people come to this forum for help regarding their service dog or ESA and it's not cool for them to have to read this. Even less cool for you to attack them directly. Just stop.
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