Get 2 months of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!
Thursday, November 15, 2018
Get 2 months of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!


SBCA: Free education for HOAs and condos on satellite placement issues.
(National Trade Organization)
Helping HOAs, condos and property managers with satellite placement issues since 1986.
Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.
Subject: Looking for petition template with intent to change HOA regulations
Prev Next
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Author Messages
FirstL3
(Illinois)

Posts:17


10/27/2018 6:33 AM  
Hi,

I am a board member who woudl like to support a homeowner with the process of changing HOA regulations. It is about allowing renters. A change would require a 2/3 majority.
Does anyone know of a good template? And also, some general wording for the petition? Are there certain phrases that should be included?

Thanks.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/27/2018 7:15 AM  
VERY tough love:

Imagine,

A director NOT knowing that there are NO, repeat NO, regulations contained in the Covenants and Restrictions but merely RESTRICTIONS.

A director so 'clueless' that they are not familiar with the 'governing documents' which contain the proper procedure(s) to amend same.

A director who has OBVIOUSLY never actually STUDIED the documents they VOLUNTEERED to administer.


Sheeeez, here we go again
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/27/2018 7:24 AM  
ps.

I am NOT sorry for the brusque tone of the reply.

I simply tell it DIRECTLY W/O the politically correct 'social graces'.

You ALL thought the EXACT same thing but were too polite to let the OP know.

Perhaps, juuuust maybe, it will act as a 'wake up call' for the ignorant director.

FirstL3
(Illinois)

Posts:17


10/27/2018 7:29 AM  
Perhaps my day is going better...

If we can get passed the name of the document that I read that states a 2/3 majority is required to make changes.My question was simply about finding a template for a petition.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:750


10/27/2018 7:33 AM  
Royal pita, Please don’t answer requests with such petulance. If you can’t be helpful, then stop satisfying your need to be obnoxious.

FirstL ... I apologize for the first response. Not all Board members have background or have read all their documents - most reach out for help which is good.

Generally, HOA CCRs have some reference to allowing the development of Rules and Regulations by the Board - establishing some level of connectivity. Your renting restriction may be in the CCRs, with these CCRs allowing modification by at least 2/3 vote of the owners.

If this is the case, and depending on state laws and the process in your docs, you will likely need to rewrite the doc and have a Special Meeting to seek the vote. Perhaps you are working up a petition for the Special Meeting?
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:7820


10/27/2018 7:33 AM  
First

First (could not resist it), check if your Covenants can be changed via petition. In many locales, a vote, not a petition is required.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/27/2018 7:50 AM  
Ooooooh Nooooooo (?mr bill?)


? Y'all mean ACTUALLY READ AND UNDERSTAND the documents ?


OP,

someone will be polite and attempt to give you the basic 'generic' understanding required to amend CCRs

said 'specific' info already contained within your CCRs

INCLUDING YOUR REQUIRED FORMATTING


FirstL3
(Illinois)

Posts:17


10/27/2018 7:56 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 10/27/2018 7:33 AM
First

First (could not resist it), check if your Covenants can be changed via petition. In many locales, a vote, not a petition is required.




I observed when me the changes several years ago. Some sort of petition was used by the board president. Below refereed as instrument. The board has the right to make changes such as: getting in compliance with laws and typographical corrections. Otherwise a 2/3 majority appears to be required using "instrument"

I am trying to advice the homeowner on using a proper document, so that his effort is not wasted.


Here is the paragraph:
This Declaration may be amended by an instrument signed by not less than
sixty-seven percent (67%) of the Lot Owners, with the written consent of mortgagees holding at
least fifty-one percent (51%) of the outstanding mortgages on the Property and any phases
annexed thereto
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1263


10/27/2018 9:20 AM  
When we amended our CCRs, we had an attorney involved. We drafted our thoughts and the attorney helped formalize the language. We did not use a petition, we (with the attorney's guidance) created a ballot with each amendment allowing for a yes or no vote, and a signature line. We first distributed by hand to each house, and after a couple of weeks followed up in person in cases where the ballot was not returned. We were finally able to get over 2/3 of the owners to respond, and most of the amendments passed. In your case I think getting the mortgage holder's approval will be the tougher part. First you need to determine which homes have mortgages so you can determine how many constitute 51%, then get the owners to spend time contacting their lenders.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/27/2018 9:41 AM  
..... with the written consent of mortgagees holding at
least fifty-one percent (51%) of the outstanding mortgages .....


that means that 'the banks' ALSO have to 'sign off'

your 'proposed' amendment is a total waste of time

? can you not read your own 'governing documents' ?

if a member of the association wishes to amend the 'governing documents' then said member should be able to read, understand, and adhere to said documents


Bull-Shit-O-Meter now at 100% - I'm Out

RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/27/2018 9:49 AM  
ps.

Posted By DouglasK1 on 10/27/2018 9:20 AM
When we amended our CCRs, we had an attorney involved. We drafted our thoughts and the attorney helped formalize the language. We did not use a petition, we (with the attorney's guidance) created a ballot with each amendment allowing for a yes or no vote, and a signature line. We first distributed by hand to each house, and after a couple of weeks followed up in person in cases where the ballot was not returned. We were finally able to get over 2/3 of the owners to respond, and most of the amendments passed. In your case I think getting the mortgage holder's approval will be the tougher part. First you need to determine which homes have mortgages so you can determine how many constitute 51%, then get the owners to spend time contacting their lenders.




agree in general, but, to clarify for the OP:


2/3 of ALL the properties must vote AYE, NOT merely 2/3 of those who voted

AND

51% of ALL mortgagees must vote AYE, NOT merely 51% of those who respond


Mortgages are public record at your county's 'Register of Deeds'.

An attorney has the resources to 'search the records' and obtain/provide the REQUIRED list.

As do YOU, assuming the required degree of reading comprehension.


RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/27/2018 9:55 AM  
pps.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=template+petition&qpvt=template+petition&FORM=IGRE
FirstL3
(Illinois)

Posts:17


10/27/2018 11:46 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 10/27/2018 7:33 AM
Royal pita, Please don’t answer requests with such petulance. If you can’t be helpful, then stop satisfying your need to be obnoxious.

FirstL ... I apologize for the first response. Not all Board members have background or have read all their documents - most reach out for help which is good.

Generally, HOA CCRs have some reference to allowing the development of Rules and Regulations by the Board - establishing some level of connectivity. Your renting restriction may be in the CCRs, with these CCRs allowing modification by at least 2/3 vote of the owners.

If this is the case, and depending on state laws and the process in your docs, you will likely need to rewrite the doc and have a Special Meeting to seek the vote. Perhaps you are working up a petition for the Special Meeting?




Thank you. I actually did read the document and states the 2/3 majority of homeowners to make changes such as allowing renting.
I am a bit unclear about the mechanics. The majority of the board is against renting. So, the board woudl not calla special meeting.
Therefore, I thought a petition woudl make sense first, to force the special meeting where the petitioners in favor can vote for the change. I wanted to make sure that the petitioner is not wasting his time by using a form that woudl not trigger this process or his process/form woudl be questioned.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/27/2018 3:05 PM  
a director who is ignorant of a 'contractual how-to' requires a legal opinion
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1263


10/27/2018 3:07 PM  
Posted By RoyalpitA on 10/27/2018 9:49 AM

2/3 of ALL the properties must vote AYE, NOT merely 2/3 of those who voted


Certainly, but you have to get to 67% response before you have a chance at 67% assent. In our case, most of the people who bothered responding voted yes on most amendments so it didn't take much beyond 67% response for most to pass.

Posted By RoyalpitA on 10/27/2018 9:49 AM

AND

51% of ALL mortgagees must vote AYE, NOT merely 51% of those who respond


Mortgages are public record at your county's 'Register of Deeds'.

An attorney has the resources to 'search the records' and obtain/provide the REQUIRED list.

As do YOU, assuming the required degree of reading comprehension.


Again, finding mortgages is easy to do in theory, just time consuming, and potentially expensive if you pay an attorney to do it. In my county, all records are available on-line so it wouldn't even require a trip, but it would still chew up time. You have to search mortgages and satisfactions to see which are still active. Luckily we don't have that requirement so didn't need to go to that step. I think if we did require 51% of mortgage holders, we probably would not have bothered. It was hard enough getting over 2/3 of the owners to spend 1 minute filling out a ballot, I don't think we would have gotten a lot of them to spend time hounding their lenders.


Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:7820


10/27/2018 3:37 PM  
First

My first (aha, the play on words) blush is you might well get fellow owners to approve the change via petition but getting the mortgage holders to do so will kill the deal.

I wish you the best.
FirstL3
(Illinois)

Posts:17


10/28/2018 1:08 PM  
I agree getting though change of 51% mortgage holders will be very difficult.

I looked at our declaration for leasing

To meet special situations and to avoid undue hardship or practical difficulties,
the Board may, but is not required to, grant permission to an Owner to lease his Dwelling Unit to
a specified lessee for a period of not more than one (1) year on such reasonable terms as the
Board may establish.

I don't know if anyone here was on a board and had to make a call what is a "undue hardship" or "practical difficulty".
I heard many opinions on the board. Just wondering how such a clause should be treated.

i.e. a homeowner who had to buy bigger home due to practical reasons (kids) who can not sell his unit after one year, even tough advertising below market value?
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:7820


10/28/2018 6:12 PM  
First

Cne we assume renting for a minimum of one year is acceptable? Can we assume you are advocating for rentals less than one year? If advocating for less then one tear, what do you advocate? One day, one month, 6 months, etc?
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1263


10/28/2018 6:33 PM  
Posted By FirstL3 on 10/28/2018 1:08 PM
I agree getting though change of 51% mortgage holders will be very difficult.

I looked at our declaration for leasing

To meet special situations and to avoid undue hardship or practical difficulties,
the Board may, but is not required to, grant permission to an Owner to lease his Dwelling Unit to
a specified lessee for a period of not more than one (1) year on such reasonable terms as the
Board may establish.

I don't know if anyone here was on a board and had to make a call what is a "undue hardship" or "practical difficulty".
I heard many opinions on the board. Just wondering how such a clause should be treated.

i.e. a homeowner who had to buy bigger home due to practical reasons (kids) who can not sell his unit after one year, even tough advertising below market value?


It appears that determining sufficient hardship is up to the board. If most of them don't want to allow renting, then no hardship will be hard enough.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/30/2018 11:56 AM  
Posted By JohnC46 on 10/28/2018 6:12 PM
First

Cne we assume renting for a minimum of one year is acceptable? Can we assume you are advocating for rentals less than one year? If advocating for less then one tear, what do you advocate? One day, one month, 6 months, etc?




from the OP:

..... To meet special situations and to avoid undue hardship or practical difficulties,
the Board may, but is not required to, grant permission to an Owner to lease his Dwelling Unit to
a specified lessee for a period of not more than one (1) year on such reasonable terms as the
Board may establish. .....



John; we really must READ this stuff



however, as I responded after the meter = 100, let the illiterate jabberwocky continue as the OP has no clue what 'his' documents actually state (he is only now even reading them) nor what he is trying to accomplish nor the impossibility of same because of the "banks'" voting requirements
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:750


10/30/2018 2:26 PM  
Pita,

Dude. Be helpful or stop posting.

Go somewhere else and be demeaning and insulting.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/30/2018 2:41 PM  
Apparently,

accurate and factual = demeaning and insulting.


So be it.

GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:750


10/30/2018 2:46 PM  
No one gets a pass when they are insulting.

I think you need to find another hobby - your incessant childish and flip comments are simply unnecessary.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/30/2018 2:47 PM  
..... I observed when me the changes several years ago. Some sort of petition was used by the board president. Below refereed as instrument. .....


I believe the quote would actually define the term: Jabberwocky.


Bah Humbug
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:750


10/30/2018 2:56 PM  
RoyalpitA,

I am not sure if the site owners care, but I have reported your childish behavior as being outside the site’s mandate of being positive and helpful.

I am hoping they will recognize the harm you are doing and restrict your involvement.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/30/2018 7:35 PM  
Posted By RoyalpitA on 10/27/2018 3:05 PM
a director who is ignorant of a 'contractual how-to' requires a legal opinion




I would guess you find that advice childish ?

Unhelpful ?

To whom ?

More often than not the OP requires a 'reality check'.

Am I brusque ?

You betcha !

Am I 'usually' accurate !

You betcha !



When an actual 'moderator' requests me to join the ranks of the 'yes men' telling people how wonderful they are and how I can 'help' THEN, and only then, will I be gone.

Until then I will BLUNTLY call them as I see them.

Directors NEED to be:

Conversant with their 'governing documents'.
LITERATE on the 'academic' 8th grade level.
LITERATE in the language of the site (English).
Taking Fiduciary Responsibility SERIOUSLY.
OPEN TO CRITISCISM.

BECAUSE they are volunteers they are actually MORE responsible for their actions as they CHOSE for no pay to spend their time managing as opposed to a PAID EMPLOYEE who merely does what they are told.

Surely you are also aghast by the nature of many of the questions asked on this site.

The answers to most of which are 'self contained' in the questioners own documents which they OBVIOUSLY have NOT read. Much less understood.

Should said documents be vague or poorly written concerning 'important' aspects then an ATTORNEY is needed, NOT some web denizen's 'personal opinion'.

When an OP CORPORATE DIRECTOR asks for a legal interpretation in broken, almost illiterate, English they NEED to be bluntly 'put down' before they do real harm, with the best of intentions, to their association.

How many times have we heard: "But I did my best, I'm only a volunteer, what did you expect?"


As Yoda once said: "Do, or do not. There is no try." Advice for the ages.


Moderators,

? Do you want me to leave the site permanently ?

If yes: E-Mail me or simply close my account.

John S. Bernabeu
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:750


10/31/2018 12:00 AM  
Look, you’re obviously a smart guy ... but, just as obviously, are exhausting to listen to - as children are.

It’s time for you to be helpful and mature in your approach - stop with the pseudo funny yappy-yappy and be positive and helpful.

Imagine how posters feel when you rip into them with your immature demeanor - they need help - they will back off when you start with the nonsense.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/31/2018 2:29 AM  
acknowledged
GlenM4
(Tennessee)

Posts:133


11/01/2018 3:53 PM  
Posted By n/a on 10/30/2018 7:35 PM
Posted By RoyalpitA on 10/27/2018 3:05 PM
a director who is ignorant of a 'contractual how-to' requires a legal opinion




I would guess you find that advice childish ?








yes , cause I am sure the OP all ready knows a lawyer could help. Anyone that is not a kid knows this.. but site is here to help not tell every user to consult lawyer.. , cause in truth, that could work for every question on this site..

so in short i do believe its childish.
Please login to post a reply (click Member Login on the menu).
Forums > Homeowner Association > HOA Discussions > Looking for petition template with intent to change HOA regulations



Get 2 months of free community web site hosting from Community123.com!



News Articles Provided by: Community Associations Network
News, articles and blogs about condos/HOA's

Only members have access to all features.
Click here to join HOATalk for Free! Members click here to login and access all features.







General Legal Notice:  The content of forum messages are from the posting member and have not been reviewed nor endorsed by HOATalk.com.  Messages posted by HOATalk or other members are for informational purposes only, are not legal or professional advice and do not constitute an attorney-client relationship.  Readers should not act upon this information without seeking professional counsel.  HOATalk is not a licensed attorney, CPA, tax advisor, financial advisor or any other licensed professional.  HOATalk accepts ads from sponsors but does not verify sponsor qualifications nor endorse/guarantee any sponsor's product or service.
HindmanSanchez Legal Notice:  (For messages posted by HindmanSanchez) This message has been prepared by HindmanSanchez for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Members of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send us confidential information unless you speak with one of our attorneys and get authorization to send that information to us. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in our firm. Our attorneys are licensed to practice law in the state of Colorado only.

Legal Notice For Messages Posted by Sponsoring Attorneys: This message has been prepared by the sponsoring attorney for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. This information is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute an attorney-client relationship. Readers of HOATalk.com should not act on this information without seeking professional counsel. Please do not send any sponsoring attorney confidential information unless you speak with the sponsoring attorney or an attorney from the sponsoring attorney’s firm and get authorization to send that information to them. If you wish to initiate possible representation, please contact an attorney in the firm of the sponsoring attorney. Sponsoring attorneys that post messages here are licensed to practice law in a specific state or states as indicated in their message signature or sponsor’s profile page. (NOTE: A ‘sponsoring attorney’ is an attorney that is a HOATalk.com official sponsor and is identified as such in the posted message or on our sponsor page.)

Copyright HOA Talk.com, A Service of Community123 LLC ( Homeowners Association Discussions )   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement