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Subject: Re: Insuring Improvements vs Tenants' Improvements in the CC&Rs
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JeffT2
(Iowa)

Posts:419


10/26/2018 12:52 PM  
Older policies did provide mainly fire insurance.

Your CCRs call for "extended coverage", an archaic term that adds other perils besides fire, but not specifically water damage.

Your CCRs also say: "Fire and other hazard insurance shall be purchased."

Modern policies are usually a package that includes coverage for many perils and hazards, including water damage. This may come down to viewing the HOA's master policy.

I would be very, very surprised if the master policy was not a package that includes coverage for water damage. Can you even get such limited coverage? Would not the insurance agent, the insurance company and the board be highly remiss in not getting a modern insurance package that includes water damage?
JeffT2
(Iowa)

Posts:419


10/26/2018 1:00 PM  
Forgot to mention: "extended coverage" is no longer used since it has been incorporated into the basic causes of loss form. Water damage is included in the Broad Form. These particulars are mostly new to me, so I am not going to try to summarize it, but you can do an internet search for more info.
ScottH19
(California)

Posts:24


10/26/2018 1:03 PM  
Posted By JeffT2 on 10/26/2018 12:52 PM
Older policies did provide mainly fire insurance.

Your CCRs call for "extended coverage", an archaic term that adds other perils besides fire, but not specifically water damage.

Your CCRs also say: "Fire and other hazard insurance shall be purchased."

Modern policies are usually a package that includes coverage for many perils and hazards, including water damage. This may come down to viewing the HOA's master policy.

I would be very, very surprised if the master policy was not a package that includes coverage for water damage. Can you even get such limited coverage? Would not the insurance agent, the insurance company and the board be highly remiss in not getting a modern insurance package that includes water damage?



I don't have the HOA policy as of yet but I have the declarations pages and water damage is included.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


10/26/2018 1:12 PM  
An aside: Insurance agents are not lawyers. Both the rep for the HOA and my personal insurance office, when I wanted them to tell me all these particulars said to talk to a lawyer to go over our docs. On the HOA master policy side, the rep said 'At the time of an occurrence, an adjuster will go over all that and decide based on what the by-laws and policy states'. (Something like that). They aren't going to go digging into hypothetical occurrences.

My individual insurance said something similar. I have to talk to an attorney. They are not even interested in looking at our docs to determine the correct coverage for myself, that seems to be on me to determine.

ScottH19
(California)

Posts:24


10/26/2018 1:51 PM  
For anyone who's interested, I just found an interesting case from the CA Court of Appeal with some parallels to my own situation. Again, that's if you're interested...and enjoy reading case law =)


https://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1239954.html
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3107


10/26/2018 6:35 PM  
Posted By ScottH19 on 10/26/2018 12:03 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 10/26/2018 10:57 AM
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/25/2018 11:06 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 10/25/2018 8:08 PM
Responsible for what? The Association has no responsibility, NONE, NADA. He should have had a policy to cover for what the HOA's policy didn't.

END OF CONVERSATION!

GOODNIGHT!




Dude! He does have such a policy. I think you misread something. But I am glad you took your chill pill and got to beddy-bye. Or went to rampage somewhere else, lol.



You need to have a better understanding of how policies for HOA are written and what information is used by the underwriters. Then you need to understand how a policy for a homeowner within a HOA is written to try and include those items NOT covered under the HOA policy.

I won't comment on this site unless I have a pretty good understanding of the subject matter and generally, not always, stay out of area not related to California. The OP is supposed to be a lawyer and he is confused about the language within his CCRs. I am shocked.



Richard, I was willing to ignore your earlier comments, but now I can't. Your condescension is both inappropriate and undeserving, as are your efforts to turn this forum into your personal battleground. Your apparent belief that lawyers are somehow able to navigate every ordeal, or interpret every 40+ year old document, without the assistance of other people and resources is naive.

If you are concerned that you haven't gotten your point across, let me ease your mind. You have. Anyone who visits this thread will be made sufficiently aware of your views, and you do not need to respond to every subsequent post with your hostility for the sole purpose of reminding people what you have to say.



Best of luck to you DUDE!
EllieD
(Vermont)

Posts:436


10/31/2018 8:00 AM  
ScottH19,

I have been following your thread. Anything new?

Based on your description of the event, and information provided, I agree that only your personal HO-6 Policy provides coverage for water damage to flooring, cabinets, etc. inside your Condo Unit, that were damaged when your kitchen faucet cartridge went bad.

And, so I am left wondering:

-- Why, and what were you told, when your HO-6 Insurance Company instructed you to contact the HOA about the damage?

-- Why do you think that your Insurance Company needs to see original specifications?

-- Did the Insurance Adjuster discuss with you, what your HO-6 Policy as written covered, while standing in your kitchen “taking note” of what was damaged - cabinets, flooring, drywall, etc.? Items that are “in plain sight” for the adjuster to see, and to place a dollar replacement value on, for insurance purposes.

-- Why was your claim denied? (Assume you are referring to your HO-6 Policy claim).
ScottH19
(California)

Posts:24


10/31/2018 11:19 AM  
Posted By EllieD on 10/31/2018 8:00 AM
ScottH19,

I have been following your thread. Anything new?




I've requested from the HOA thru property management any documents reflecting the original specifications of the unit. I'm waiting to hear back. My HOA has taken the position that it (or its insurance) is not responsible for the damage based on language in the CC&Rs placing the responsibility to maintain and repair a unit on the owner.

Posted By EllieD on 10/31/2018 8:00 AM

Based on your description of the event, and information provided, I agree that only your personal HO-6 Policy provides coverage for water damage to flooring, cabinets, etc. inside your Condo Unit, that were damaged when your kitchen faucet cartridge went bad.




Can you elaborate?

Posted By EllieD on 10/31/2018 8:00 AM

-- Why, and what were you told, when your HO-6 Insurance Company instructed you to contact the HOA about the damage?



The very first time I was told to contact the HOA was during my first telephone discussion with the adjuster after I made the claim (some time ago). I don't recall in detail the reasons why I was asked to contact them at that time, but I think the gist of it was just to put them on notice in the event the HOA (or its insurance) would be responsible for some or all of the damage.

After the HO-6 insurance company did its inspection and damage estimate, I spoke on the phone with the claims supervisor. He asked me questions to help him ascertain whether the damaged items in my unit were added by myself and/or previous owners. I indicated I was nearly positive that the hardwood floors were added by the owner before me, but that I couldn't be sure about the rest (i.e. cabinetry, walls, countertop). By way of that conversation and later email exchanges, I was advised that the damage estimate exceeded the deductible on the HOA policy, and that the HOA needs to make a claim on its insurance because according to the CC&Rs, the HO-6 insurance company was only responsible for improvements. [The idea being that, if the damage didn't exceed the HOA insurance deductible, then my HO-6 would cover everything (original specifications and improvements) because the HO-6 covers both damage to improvements and the HOA insurance deductible, and the HOA wouldn't put a claim on its insurance for damage which did not exceed the deductible.]

My HO-6 insurance's position is that, per the CC&Rs, the HO-6 insurance is only responsible for damage to "betterments and improvements" made to my unit by myself and all owners before me, while the HOA insurance policy is responsible for damage to all items which were original to the unit (dating back to 1972). Thru further email communication with the claims supervisor, I learned that my HO-6 insurance company has taken the position that it doesn't know which damaged items in the unit are original.


Posted By EllieD on 10/31/2018 8:00 AM

-- Why do you think that your Insurance Company needs to see original specifications?




If the HO-6 insurance company's position and reading of the CC&Rs are to be accepted as accurate, then it has to distinguish between damaged items in my unit which were added by previous owners from those which are part of the original building. What is the industry standard by which this is ascertained? I don't know. But documentation of the original specifications, if it exists, might be instrumental in this process.


Posted By EllieD on 10/31/2018 8:00 AM

-- Did the Insurance Adjuster discuss with you, what your HO-6 Policy as written covered, while standing in your kitchen “taking note” of what was damaged - cabinets, flooring, drywall, etc.? Items that are “in plain sight” for the adjuster to see, and to place a dollar replacement value on, for insurance purposes.




The HO-6 insurance company's inspection was outsourced to a restoration company. So no. There was no discussion of coverage taking place contemporaneously with the inspection. And as stated above, it appears my insurance company does not know what is covered since it does not know which damaged items were added by previous owners.

Posted By EllieD on 10/31/2018 8:00 AM

-- Why was your claim denied? (Assume you are referring to your HO-6 Policy claim).



Very good question without a clear answer.

After my telephone conversation with the claims supervisor, discussed above, I received standardized template letter from my insurance company, in which it denied the claim, or part of it (I don't have the letter in front me, but it was essentially boilerplate and didn't provide any more info than that discussed above). I also logged into my account on the insurance company's website and saw that the claim was closed. I emailed the claims supervisor to find out why it was closed. His response: "The claim will be re-opened for appropriate handling. As a clarification, if a claim is closed; it can be easily re-opened. The claim was initially closed as a result of the HOA being primary for the repairs in your unit."

So how can the claim be closed/denied on the basis that the HOA insurance is the primary for the repairs on the unit, when my insurance company - which takes the position that the HOA insurance is the primary for damage to original items - doesn't even know which damaged items are original or added by the owner?

It doesn't add up. It is also intuitively improper that they should close the claim in its entirety on the basis that they simply don't know which materials are original and which are added.
RoyalpitA


Posts:0


10/31/2018 11:38 AM  
ScottH19,

this may be of help re: public adjuster

http://www.capiainc.com/
ScottH19
(California)

Posts:24


10/31/2018 11:41 AM  
Thanks Royal
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3107


10/31/2018 12:23 PM  
Posted By EllieD on 10/31/2018 8:00 AM
ScottH19,

I have been following your thread. Anything new?

Based on your description of the event, and information provided, I agree that only your personal HO-6 Policy provides coverage for water damage to flooring, cabinets, etc. inside your Condo Unit, that were damaged when your kitchen faucet cartridge went bad.

And, so I am left wondering:

-- Why, and what were you told, when your HO-6 Insurance Company instructed you to contact the HOA about the damage?

-- Why do you think that your Insurance Company needs to see original specifications?

-- Did the Insurance Adjuster discuss with you, what your HO-6 Policy as written covered, while standing in your kitchen “taking note” of what was damaged - cabinets, flooring, drywall, etc.? Items that are “in plain sight” for the adjuster to see, and to place a dollar replacement value on, for insurance purposes.

-- Why was your claim denied? (Assume you are referring to your HO-6 Policy claim).



Ellie

Here is how it should go. When I take on a new association I will thoroughly review the association's CCRs and with a excel template check off all the HOA is responsible for and all that the homeowner is responsible for. I will then send that list and the CCRs to the insurance agent of the HOA to make sure we are both on the same page.

HOA insurance is supposed to be written according to the CCRs, nothing more nothing less. HO-6 then should be written to what the HOA insurance doesn't cover. What an HOA covers is not universal, every HOA is different, especially condos, and then if the documents are old and never be updated. A insurance company is not going to write coverage for something they have no authority for. Not a lot different than a HOA trying to create rules for which they have no authority.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


10/31/2018 3:14 PM  
And the board won't make a claim for you under the master policy?
ScottH19
(California)

Posts:24


10/31/2018 5:50 PM  
Posted By JenniferG11 on 10/31/2018 3:14 PM
And the board won't make a claim for you under the master policy?



The board has, at the very least, indicated an unwillingness to make a claim. It has not formally refused to make a claim because I have not yet formally demanded it; rather, I've just relayed to it my insurance company's position. I haven't demanded it because it's a bit premature to do so. If I'm able to obtain documentation of the original specifications of the building, and that documentation demonstrates that none of the damaged items are original, then the HOA wouldn't need to make a claim regardless of whether my insurance company's position is correct. If I made a formal demand on the board, I think it would be helpful or necessary to have documentation showing that some of the damaged items in my unit are original. If I can't get the documentation from the HOA I might try public records. I'm reluctant to stir the pot with the HOA before I know it's absolutely necessary
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


10/31/2018 6:14 PM  
Well, my thinking is that they are in a better position than your personal carrier as to what is original specs. It's original *specs*, not actual original that is at issue. For instance, if you or a prior owner replaced carpet with carpet, that really isn't an improvement. Carpet to hardwood floors is.
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