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Subject: Window Replacement
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Author Messages
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


09/04/2018 9:33 AM  
I have been wanting to replace the single pane aluminum windows in my townhouse since February 2018. no guidelines were ever in place until recently when at the last board meeting a week ago they decided that only aluminum would be allowed. This is because one board member does not personally like vinyl. There are very limited energy star rated aluminum windows built to withstand the Florida climate and humidity to say the least. What ones are offered have a poor review. Most contractors I have spoken with don't recommend them and some refuse to install them due to the manufacturers poor quality. They warp, bend, condensation issues etc. What is my recourse? My windows are totally crumbling away. I live in a cave upstairs as I have 2 sets of room darkening thick drapes to keep out the intense heat. My unit happens to face east/west. There are many homeowners needing to replace their windows and they don't want aluminum either. What is my next step? I have sent numerous brochures, product reviews, the pro's and con's of vinyl vs. aluminum but they are hell bent on standing their ground. I am sick of it. I need new windows badly.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6045


09/04/2018 10:29 AM  
Do your own documents say anything that might help, you Kelly? In other words, do they require aluminum windows?

Based on your below post about malfunctioning gates, it sounds like your board of directors is in pretty bad shape. One example is that ONE director persuaded the others not to permit owners to upgrade their windows.

But, wait. Who's responsible for the windows? Individual Owners? Or the HOA?

I think you need new directors on your board. When's the next election? How many director seats will be available? Are and/or others willing to be candidate??
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


09/04/2018 10:51 AM  
They just now made the policy, haven't seen it in writing yet. I mean they just voted on it the 29th of August. Yes they will say aluminum only, although they may amend to say fiberglass. The BOD is in very bad shape. There are 7 seats, one is vacant now as one resigned last meeting. The annual meeting is coming up beginning of November with nominees for the Board to be in by sometime in October although no announcements have gone out yet. There is definitely not enough communication and residents don't know what is going on. The website is not maintained, and their are no minutes posted from month to month. I don't know what members will be running again, but my guess will be the same two that have been on the board for 12 years, maybe the 2 newer ones, voted in a few months back when the president and treasurer resigned mid term. I think 2 new board members voted in for this year will resign at the end of their term in December. So maybe 3-4 seats will be open. No idea who is up for applying dealing with this bull mentality of the MC. It appears a lost cause and I think I will end up trying to sell and get out of dodge. It appears any new members just let the MC do anything he wants no questions, no ruffled feathers.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:853


09/04/2018 11:06 AM  
Kelly,

What do you HOA docs say? The CC&Rs? Do they specify aluminum? Are the references in the CC&Rs to the Board being able to develop Rules and Regulations?
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6045


09/04/2018 11:57 AM  
I agree with George about his questions. Maybe in your CC&Rs or in an Architectural guidelines sort of document?

Is your HOA detached homes? Condos?

Even if you want to sell, I'd think aluminum window requirements s would be a huge negative!
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


09/04/2018 12:21 PM  
its a townhouse community with 591 units. 6 units per building with the 2 end units 2 car garage and 2 windows on the 1st floor. The middle units are 1 car garage with 6 windows 3 in front and 3 in back. I agree aluminum windows are such a downgrade to the value of the homes. I can only hope maybe change with new members and re-visit the topic then. Right now, there is no negotiating.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:853


09/04/2018 12:24 PM  
Kerry,

There are still high quality aluminum windows available - mos have some finish on them - white usually. They’re double pane, but are not as energy efficient as good vinyl windows.

One downside to vinyl is the continual Florida heat sometimes causes sagging, but this may be more of a quality issue than a vinyl material issue.
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


09/04/2018 12:28 PM  
here in Florida need good energy efficient windows. Looking at possible fiberglass option although may be out of my price range.
JaredC
(Texas)

Posts:139


09/04/2018 12:56 PM  
How in the world does your choice of window material affect the HOA? Aluminum, fiberglass, vinyl, composite. What exactly is the HOA's justification for their position? This reeks of ridiculoscity to my. So much so that I'm even making up new words to describe it.

The HOA should be concerned about the look of the windows, period. They must be painted white not red, no stain glass windows, etc. The rest is just because a bunch on little Hitlers care more about their egos than reasonable property management. I don't think they have a legal foot to stand on... they're probably to stupid to walk anyway.
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


09/04/2018 1:02 PM  
your exactly right. They have a bully passive aggressive mentality and not one person on the board even knows the difference between any windows. Its absurd to the highest degree. It's like talking to a wall. I have spent over a year researching the windows as this was not a fly by night decision. I have sent so much literature and documents supporting a good economical window and statistics on the up-value of the home with energy efficient hurricane resistant maintenance free windows. The MC rules the roost and his little puppet minions follow along. It's outright sickening.
JaredC
(Texas)

Posts:139


09/04/2018 1:18 PM  
BTW, I'm the type of personality that would not stand for such a ridiculous which brings me to point #2: How would they know? Why not just purchase what you want and tell them it's aluminum? They'll be painted after all and they would never know the difference. The real key is to make sure the window itself meets the aesthetic criteria of the HOA because that would be...wait for it...reasonable and responsible. Could you imagine this going to court and your new windows look like all the other windows around the property but the HOA is arguing "But your honor they aren't made of aluminum". That might not go over so well. But alas they would likely never know you lied about the construction material anyway and you could secretly revel in the fact that you beat them at their own game.
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


09/04/2018 2:25 PM  
Trust me I have thought about that too. I should have done it prior to the guidelines being written as there were none. However there is an ARC application process which will have to state the type of window vinyl vs aluminum and a sample shown. So that in itself is a contract if approved. Not that the HOA will be watching the whole time but will they be aggressive enough to slap a lien on my unit, they probably would. I wish there were other options but at this point I am super frustrated.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6045


09/04/2018 3:13 PM  
Ah, Jared is here. Jared, I've been trying to ask Kelly WHO is responsible for the windows in their Townhouse HOA? AND if there's anything in their declaration, CC&Rs/whatever, that discusses windows.

Kelly seems to say in her/his last email that there was no mention anywhere. That seems very unusual.
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


09/04/2018 3:26 PM  
We as residents are responsible for the upkeep and repair and replacement of windows. The community established in late 2006 and until August 29th,2018 there was never a provision for replacement windows.....ever!. Then when I put my application in for window replacement, they denied it initially because there were NO guidelines in place for windows. Really? we live in Florida in the center of the State along the western coast with potential hurricanes and no guidelines. This was the first I heard of it. Then the ARC could not decide on anything and then it went to the board who haphazardly voted within 5 minutes to say only aluminum allowed because they can be painted to match the trim. That was it, end of story. I was not allowed to present the window, to demonstrate the window, for my contractor to explain the window. Nothing. So this is the email I got today saying the matter is closed, the board voted and only aluminum replacement windows will be allowed. If I have a sample aluminum window to show them then fine otherwise denied. The ARC is meeting tonight, but they cannot override the board from what I am told.
PaaN


Posts:0


09/04/2018 3:38 PM  
Aluminum replacement windows are best suited for warm climates

Aluminum replacement windows have dropped to near-niche status. However, experts say that in certain climates and for certain homes, aluminum windows deserve a second look.

The major reasons for aluminum's low popularity include is its less-than stellar image and its much lower energy efficiency compared to most other replacement window types, including wood, clad-wood, vinyl and fiberglass. That leads to more heat transferred to the outside during cold days, and condensation -- and in extreme cases even frost -- forming on the inside, especially if low-efficiency glass is also used.

To combat their propensity to transfer heat, ThisOldHouse.com recommends that, "If you decide to install aluminum windows, be sure the ones you order are equipped with a thermal break in the frame." Those place an insulating material between the inside and outside of the aluminum frame, greatly improving energy efficiency, though it will still fall behind that of other replacement windows. If getting the best energy efficiency from aluminum windows is a concern, homeowners should opt for the highest efficiency glass that the window vendor offers.

Still, those living in areas subject to cold temperatures in the winter should probably look elsewhere, and many vendors will not offer their aluminum window products in regions where they won't meet local energy codes. However, aluminum replacement windows can make for a reasonable choice for those living in milder climates, such as in the American South, and experts say that aluminum replacement windows have some significant advantages if they work in your climate.

For starters, aluminum windows are lightweight, yet very strong and they can withstand high winds as well as temperature extremes without losing their integrity. "For homeowners living in areas prone to hurricanes and high winds, impact-resistant aluminum windows have grown in appeal over the years." notes Angie Hicks, publisher of the Angie's List website. She says that, while impact-resistant vinyl replacement windows are available, they generally cost more than aluminum.

Experts also note that modern aluminum windows are a far cry from the less-than-well-regarded ones of the not-too-distant past. Most recently, aluminum windows have actually become the darlings of some architects and builders for their clean lines and strength, allowing for thin frames and larger expanses of glass. They are also a fitting choice for many mid-century homes. "If your house was originally built with aluminum windows -- most postwar houses from the mid-1950s through the 1980s were -- there's no question that new-generation aluminum windows will be your best aesthetic choice for replacement," says Arrol Gellner at Inman News, a news site for real estate agents and brokers.

Aluminum windows can be versatile, too. "Its strength easily allows for any shape and size of arched or regular window," say the experts at HomeAdvisor.com. "Wood windows may look nice up close, but for a complete visually stunning appearance for your home, aluminum will give you the options for elaborate window design and total area at an affordable price and a long-lasting product," they add.

Though aluminum replacement windows are often touted as needing no regular maintenance, that's not necessarily correct. Over time, they can suffer from the effects of the weather and show pitting or corrosion. That's a particular concern in coastal areas with their salt air. However, unlike vinyl, aluminum can be easily primed and painted to any color. Most windows can also be ordered with baked on enamel or powder-coated finishes that will slow the ravages of time and weather.

Aluminum windows aren't offered by as many vendors as other types, but if they work for your climate and your home's design, you can get aluminum replacement windows from a variety of national, regional, and local manufacturers. Top national names include Milgard and Jeld-Wen.
JaredC
(Texas)

Posts:139


09/04/2018 3:40 PM  
Obviously this does not apply to Kelly but our HOA is responsible for the entire exterior of the buildings and it says as much in the CC&R's. Those same CC&R's make no mention of windows either but everyone has always replace their own. Several of my neighbors did theirs and they looked so good that I followed their lead even though I was the HOA president. When something is done right why bring the ego into it?

Also, boards can make all sorts of resolutions and put any manner of content into their Rules & Regs, By-Laws or CC&R's but if it's unreasonable or unlawful then it is unenforceable! Point of fact this is 2018 and there are far better construction materials for windows than aluminum. Let me jump around for a moment. If you have shared galvanized steel water pipes and the HOA passes a resolution that you can only replace them with similar material is that reasonable? I think not. PVC is newer and popular. Poly pipe is the latest and greatest technology. Any monkey (ego's notwithstanding) would simply accept the opinion of a master plumber regarding the best fix. Same goes for windows. There is better technology available and a properly insured installer will carry insurance to cover damages resulting in improper installation. What possible reason could an HOA have to even attempt to deny the install of such windows? Even if aluminum is required by your CC&R's... c'mon.... how enforceable is that in real life? What if they were written 30 years ago when there weren't as many awesome alternatives as there are today?

If you want to go the cautious route then file an ACC request with your HOA, state that you want the windows to look similar to other windows within the community and you want your construction material to be vinyl, composite, or whatever. When they deny the application ask for a reason. They may or may not give you one (because bad hoa board members live in the dark) but BLAMO your harm, and therefore your ability to file a lawsuit, has been caused. Spend the $125ish and go to a JP court and get a ruling and ask for your filing fees back in return. Reasonableness is KEY so make sure you have a sufficient paper/electronic trail asking questions like "why aluminum only" etc. Just sayin.
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


09/04/2018 3:59 PM  
Thank you so much PaaN and Jared. You have given me so much information to chomp on and I do believe I will follow what Jared has said. I will apply officially, wait for the denial and reason then find a JP ang go from there. This is so beyond ridiculous.
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


09/04/2018 4:49 PM  
So another question I have for you Jared can the JP court overturn or override the HOA decision on aluminum only windows. I am sitting at ARC meeting now and although they listened to my plea regarding the differences and the issue with aluminum installation, they flat out denied for the reason of strictly not being aluminum. How would I go about presenting this to the JP court.
JaredC
(Texas)

Posts:139


09/04/2018 4:54 PM  
Make that statement a part of the official meeting minutes. Hopefully you have been recording the meeting on your smart phone should the other board members decide that fact should be omitted.
PaaN


Posts:0


09/04/2018 7:40 PM  
to repeat:

Experts also note that modern aluminum windows are a far cry from the less-than-well-regarded ones of the not-too-distant past. Most recently, aluminum windows have actually become the darlings of some architects and builders for their clean lines and strength, allowing for thin frames and larger expanses of glass. They are also a fitting choice for many mid-century homes. "If your house was originally built with aluminum windows -- most postwar houses from the mid-1950s through the 1980s were -- there's no question that new-generation aluminum windows will be your best aesthetic choice for replacement," says Arrol Gellner at Inman News, a news site for real estate agents and brokers.


albeit MORE expensive than vinyl

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:6045


09/04/2018 8:06 PM  
Gooood info, PaaN.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:530


09/04/2018 8:23 PM  
This sounds crazy. A rule overriding the governing documents? The hierarchy doesn't work that way.
PaaN


Posts:0


09/05/2018 5:54 AM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 09/04/2018 8:06 PM
Gooood info, PaaN.






took 3 minutes

search

copy

paste

NO, repeat NO, thinking or opinionating involved


GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2580


09/05/2018 6:38 PM  
Posted By KellyD5 on 09/04/2018 4:49 PM
So another question I have for you Jared can the JP court overturn or override the HOA decision on aluminum only windows. I am sitting at ARC meeting now and although they listened to my plea regarding the differences and the issue with aluminum installation, they flat out denied for the reason of strictly not being aluminum. How would I go about presenting this to the JP court.

What's a JP court? Not that it matters, courts in FL give great weight to an HOA's governing documents with very strong presumptions of validity.

I think the only way you're going to "win" is by waiting on the new windows until a new board - perhaps with you on it or at least other owners who share your thinking - can rescind the aluminum-only architectural guidelines. Are there absolutely no other homes with vinyl windows? If you can show there are, then a defense of "selective enforcement" would possibly work for you if you install the windows and the HOA tries to take action against you. But if there aren't any homes with vinyl windows then I think you're stuck with their decision. I highly doubt you'll find any judge that will declare the aluminum-only rule invalid.
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


09/05/2018 7:00 PM  
Well I actually sent a bunch of research and documents with the pros and cons and one board member reached out to me tonight to say he is researching it more and to be patient . He has contractor experience and he originally voted for the vinyl. There is hope for an amended guideline.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2580


09/05/2018 11:18 PM  
Posted By GenoS on 09/05/2018 6:38 PM
What's a JP court?

Answering my own question here... Justice of the Peace. Seems to be a Texas-specific thing.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:530


09/06/2018 4:06 AM  
Posted By GenoS on 09/05/2018 11:18 PM
Posted By GenoS on 09/05/2018 6:38 PM
What's a JP court?

Answering my own question here... Justice of the Peace. Seems to be a Texas-specific thing.




8 states have a JOP. In Texas, is has been combined with small claims court. This is also relevant to Jared's issue in his thread, which many from other states thinks will land in a different court. I disagree with that.

"Texans with a financial or other disagreement that does not justify the expenses associated with hiring an attorney may be able to resolve their problems in a Justice of the Peace Court. Previously, the Texas court system consisted of both “small claims courts” and “justice courts” which both had jurisdiction over civil claims of less than $10,000. But the state legislature passed a bill which abolished the small claims court and added language that small claims are now to be heard in Justice Court. These courts offer an alternative to litigation, which can cost thousands of dollars and take several years to conclude."

https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/cpd/filing-in-small-claims-court
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2580


09/06/2018 10:31 AM  
Florida is certainly a different beast. In FL parties in Small Claims court can have their legal counsel represent them which does nothing so much as slow things down and generate more legal fees.
PaaN


Posts:0


09/06/2018 10:56 AM  
In NY an attorney MUST represent a corporation in small claims court.

What corporate director (in their right mind) would assume the responsibility of 'corporate representation' ?









Oh, oh, oh; I know, an ignorant self centered VOLUNTEER
AryG
(Illinois)

Posts:4


09/06/2018 11:46 AM  
It may be different where you live, but in Illinois what your association is doing would create a few issues. First, the new rule they voted on doesn't sound like something that should be added to the rules and regulations, but should have to be added to your declaration/by-laws as an amendment, which are much more difficult to get approved than with a board vote for a new rule.

Also, in Illinois at least, if you do successfully vote to add a new rule, the rule doesn't go into affect until the next meeting when it is officially adopted and after all homeowners have been given a copy of the rules and regulations with the new rule added. If there is nothing in your associations current documents preventing you from getting the windows you want, they should not be allowed to decline your application as long as it is submitted before the new rule goes into effect. A lot of the times boards have no idea what the laws are and will just do whatever they want thinking it is legal. I would do some research about condo law in your state and make sure the way they are trying to implement this rule is correct and legal.
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


09/06/2018 12:04 PM  
Good point AryG. I will definitely look into that as someone had mentioned before about that since there was no rule implemented until just 8/29/18 and the minutes and the new decision has not been approved. It was just decided and voted on, but not in the bi-laws yet. However, I was just at the ARC meeting just this Tuesday the 4th with my application for the windows and they still denied it based on the new decision. It does say in our documents that all changes to the building must go through approval so I cant just install them. I put in this application in February of this year and they kept postponing it every month because there were absolutely no guidelines in place for new windows ever until the 29th of August. Trust me I have thought about just installing them since there were no guidelines, but I was worried that they would slap a cease and desist order on my property and then put a lien on it. My windows are the old aluminum single pane cheapo's that builders still put in, and they are literally crumbling apart. I am afraid with any major storm they will just give out. I have two thick layers of room darkening drapes to keep out the heat. Its totally ridiculous.
PaaN


Posts:0


09/08/2018 2:13 PM  
Kelly,

'perhaps' this will change your thinking about aluminium windows

http://valuewindowsdoors.com/windows/single-hung-windows/aluminum-single-hung-window/
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


01/06/2019 6:39 PM  
Hello everyone, I know this post is a few months old, but here I am still battling this issue with my HOA. There are still no guidelines in place. I have been trying to replace my single pane, aluminum, old dilapidated, broken windows since December of 2017. There were never any guidelines in place when I put the ARC application in, which I did not know at the time. I have been patiently and pursuing this since then. It appears, that the ARC and a few Board members (who have since been voted out) but are now on the ARC are trying to find anything and everything to stop this whole process. I need to know, is there a Florida Statute or Florida law that says we are allowed to replace our windows? Can they actually prevent window replacement? What is the point where this becomes an intentional stalling tactic and/or becomes an unreasonable wait time. My windows are broken and I cannot open them up without pieces falling out. If there is a fire on the first floor and the windows upstairs are my only way of escape, I cannot escape. They do not make these windows anymore and I would like to replace with a more energy efficient window. I know at one previous board meeting in October, we finally voted that either aluminum or vinyl windows could be used, but they want the window to look EXACTLY like the window that is in place now. Well that wont happen. They also state the window must match the trim color of the building as closely as possible, however, there are 5 different trim colors in our community of 590 units. This is a townhome community and not a condominium community. They have even gone so far as to say, we need to paint the new windows to match the trim, which will void the lifetime warranty. (This however is not written in the guidelines...yet). So now, what guidelines are in place are now void because any new window will look "different". I get that the windows need to look as close as possible and most windows are white. They will be double or triple pane now too. I just want a Statute or law that says they cannot stop homeowners from replacing a window. We live in a hurricane State and if a storm comes through and damages windows, we don't know what we can put in. Do I have some sort of legal ground here to get some windows?
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:307


01/06/2019 7:55 PM  
..... For starters, aluminum windows are lightweight, yet very strong and they can withstand high winds as well as temperature extremes without losing their integrity. "For homeowners living in areas prone to hurricanes and high winds, impact-resistant aluminum windows have grown in appeal over the years." ..... while impact-resistant vinyl replacement windows are available, they generally cost more than aluminum. .....



simply paint the aluminum frame(s) to match the trim

you will NOT regret dual paned, impact resistant, aluminum framed windows
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


01/06/2019 8:19 PM  
Well generally painting will void the warranty. That’s not cool. Why would I spend $7,000.00 and have the HOA make me paint them and void a lifetime warranty. Besides, most people want vinyl as there is way more selection and most contractors carry and install them. There are not very many contractors that will install aluminum here in Florida. That is a big problem. I just want to know the law.
CathyA3
(Ohio)

Posts:124


01/07/2019 5:21 AM  
Posted By KellyD5 on 01/06/2019 8:19 PM
Well generally painting will void the warranty. That’s not cool. Why would I spend $7,000.00 and have the HOA make me paint them and void a lifetime warranty. Besides, most people want vinyl as there is way more selection and most contractors carry and install them. There are not very many contractors that will install aluminum here in Florida. That is a big problem. I just want to know the law.




As you noted, there are enough conflicting requirements here to cause trouble, and I'm sure many old communities are facing similar issues with outdated rules and guidelines. It's one thing to know the law, it's another to get a stubborn board to deal with it. I'd suggest getting info about a few options for replacement windows, present them to the board with the pros and cons involved (such as voiding warranties), and force them to select one. (Or tell them that you will be installing your choice of window unless the board responds in writing within a reasonable time frame with a different window selection, and that you will interpret failure to respond as their approval of your choice.) Be sure to do it all in writing, letters sent certified and return receipt requested so you have proof of delivery. You also know your board better than I do, so if you think they'd drag their heels it may be a good idea to pay a lawyer for an hour or two of advice so that you know where you stand if push comes to shove. The lawyer should be well versed in community association law, not real estate law.
KellyD5
(Florida)

Posts:25


01/07/2019 5:34 AM  
Thank you. The Board just formed a "Window Committee" to do just that, try and find some windows that come to as close a match as possible and pick one or two that residents can choose from. The committee will also try to devise some sort of more specific guidelines that the Board can vote on and lock in. This is really an annoying process, but I get that things need to look uniform. But over a year is a little much and if we get nowhere with this window committee meeting tonight, then I guess I will need to find an attorney to help me. The problem is certain people do not want any change, but the buildings are now 13 years old and things are falling apart. We live in the 21st century and people want energy efficiency and to upgrade their homes. This is just becoming a stall tactic that I am sick of.
RoyalP
(South Carolina)

Posts:307


01/07/2019 7:51 AM  
Posted By KellyD5 on 01/06/2019 8:19 PM
Well generally painting will void the warranty. That’s not cool. Why would I spend $7,000.00 and have the HOA make me paint them and void a lifetime warranty. Besides, most people want vinyl as there is way more selection and most contractors carry and install them. There are not very many contractors that will install aluminum here in Florida. That is a big problem. I just want to know the law.




Painting an Aluminum frame window will NOT, repeat NOT, void the warranty.

Aluminum frame windows are DESIGNED to allow painting (albeit unnecessary as they will form a natural protective patina of aluminum oxide after several years).

In a 'high salt' environment they REQUIRE painting. (like everything else)
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7813


01/07/2019 1:13 PM  
May I also add... Your most likely not going to live in this house for the lifetime of those windows. So it's best if you want to sell that home in the future, you do so without HOA violations. It will sell faster and you won't have to face the extra expense at closing.

Former HOA President
RichardP13
(California)

Posts:3193


01/07/2019 9:05 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/07/2019 1:13 PM
May I also add... Your most likely not going to live in this house for the lifetime of those windows. So it's best if you want to sell that home in the future, you do so without HOA violations. It will sell faster and you won't have to face the extra expense at closing.



Congratulations to Clemson for kicking Alabama's butt. Alabama's reign as national champs came to a "glorious end".
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7813


01/07/2019 9:21 PM  
oh the team that made it to the National championship to play lost? You assume I am an Alabama fan and care?

Former HOA President
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