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Subject: Do I have to give the HOA an alarm access code?
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TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/03/2018 5:10 PM  
I am a renter in an HOA condo in Florida. I have lived here for 10 years in peace and quiet.

However, either property management or the Association have lost keys to my unit twice.

The first time, I replaced the locks and gave them a new key. But this last time, I decided to install a security system instead.

Previous Assn presidents have been entering units in our condo for non-emergency reasons without notice. This caused a huge problem particularly with the past president, and he was voted out.

Additionally, they have been fumigating my apartment despite my allergies. I have ended up in the ER twice in the past 18 mos because of this.

So it seemed like a good idea to get a security system to prevent unauthorized access and stop the fumigation.

Now the HOA is asking that I provide them with an access code, even though the wording doesn't mention them. Seeing as how they have lost my keys in the past, and have also behaved improperly, I no longer trust them.

I have responded back to them that lack of an access code does not create a physical impediment to enter my unit in an emergency, and that the Declaration of Condominium makes no mention of security access codes.

The exact wording is:

In case of any emergency originating in or threatening any units regardless
of whether or not the owner is present at the time of such emergency, the
Board of Directors of the Association, or any other person authorized by it,
shall have the right to enter such unit for the purpose of remedying or abating
the cause of such emergency, and such right of entry shall be immediate, and to
facilitate entry in the event of any such emergency, the owner of each unit,
if required by the Association, shall deposit under control of the Association
a key to such unit.

I am okay with them having keys. But nowhere is an access code listed. Also, I am a renter, I am not the owner of the unit. I am not a member of the HOA.

So, do I really have to? Thanks in advance.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:569


07/03/2018 5:16 PM  
So, you are required to give them a key and have no problem doing so.

If you currently have a keyless door - one that requires an access code - then, that is the key.

The only difference is the electrons.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/03/2018 5:19 PM  
No, I don't believe you understand. I have a new monitored alarm system, like ADT, except with Comcast. You need a code to arm it and to disarm it. They want to be able to disarm it.

Otherwise, police shows up.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2349


07/03/2018 5:28 PM  
Examine the condo declaration carefully. Then talk to the unit owner about it.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5654


07/03/2018 5:30 PM  
"....and to facilitate entry in...any such emergency, the owner of each unit, if required by the Association, shall deposit under control of the Association
a key to such unit."

So, is there something in the documents that "requires" you to give them a key/combo (agree with George they're the same thing)? If not, you take the same chance as about three Owners in our high rise of 200+. If an emergency, which almost always means water/flooding here, the Association may break down your door to enter. If this emergency emanated from your unit, you Owner will be responsible for replacing the door. These are VERY expensive here.

It doesn't matter that you are not the Owner.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:569


07/03/2018 6:18 PM  
Ah - so is just an alarm system.

Ha - you are between rock and hard place.

You could continue to play games and just give them the key with an alarm warning ...I’m assuming the alarm company will call you? Solves all the problems, then ...you KNOW when they enter.

Unless they fine, sue, etc ...you are still in compliance of giving them a key?
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/03/2018 6:37 PM  
Yes, the owner gave them a replacement key already. They are able to unlock the door. Now they are asking for an access code to disarm the alarm and avoid the police showing up.

The system also sends an audible alert to my phone every time the door is opened, even when the system is disarmed. Moreover, even if I were to give them a code, which I don't want to, if I notice the door has been opened, I can enter a distress code remotely and summon the police to my home anyway. Even after they have disarmed the alarm.

But here's the thing, I work all day and I may not notice that a door was opened.

I only use the system with my phone's Xfinity Home app, so I chose not to install the keypad next to the door. The system also has a "Central Station" that looks like a small tablet, and that hid behind a plant on top of a bookshelf in my living room because I don't really plan to use it, but I need it for the system to work.

Part of me wants to not give them a code, and the other part wants to give it to them and watch them go nuts trying to find a keypad. I also have cameras recording 24/7.

I'm just questioning that if they can open the door with the keys, why do they need an access code? Why are they afraid of the police showing up if they are not doing anything wrong and only responding to an emergency?


TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/03/2018 6:40 PM  
I don't think you understood. They have keys. They can open the door. They want to disable my alarm.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/03/2018 6:41 PM  
I spoke to the owner and she agrees with me. There's no mention in the Declaration of alarm codes, only of keys.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:569


07/03/2018 7:38 PM  
This is silly.

If they have the key and the knowledge that it will alarm ...then, when they enter and it alarms you can tell security company it is the HOA.

I assume you can give them your phone number, text, email address?

Cmon, sounds like lots of options.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


07/03/2018 9:46 PM  
On the fumigation issue, do the docs state that they can do this w/o permission? If they do, I would be asking your LL to get a waiver or whatever is needed to stop that due to your allergies.

What other non-emergency things are they coming in for?

JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


07/03/2018 10:22 PM  
Posted By TrishC on 07/03/2018 6:41 PM
I spoke to the owner and she agrees with me. There's no mention in the Declaration of alarm codes, only of keys.


AND if this went before a Court of Laws ... Potentially the Court would consider your alarm codes the same as keys. Do you really want to go down the Lawsuit Road where you can potentially LOOSE???
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7611


07/04/2018 5:27 AM  
In our area if the police respond to false alarm, they can give you a ticket/fine you. It's a huge deal with the police to have to respond. Plus they don't have your alarm code to turn it off. So they may contact the alarm company who will also charge you money to respond. The HOA may even decide to charge residents a fee for responding to alarms if they can't turn them off. If your a renter, they will charge your landlord this charge.

Not allowing the HOA to do fumigation is a HUGE no-no. Sorry you get sick over it but it's a necessary. Lived in an apartment. Would get bugs in my apartment if 1 neighbor did not participate in the fumigation. Plus the bugs are going to go straight to the place that isn't being fumigated to live. Just making it worse for yourself.

Here is an alarm story that has a horrible sad ending. One day I was checking on my house. Saw a neighbor and her alarm company talking. It was another false alarm. The company responded to it. They left and she went back inside to fix the alarm. It was an issue in the attic. She tripped over the wire in the attic, fell down the attic stairs, and broke her leg. 2 -3 days later some kids found her dead.

So no I don't take alarm issues lightly. Give someone the code and stop being so selfish. Other people are affected by your alarm. It's not necessarily the bad guy. Who is probably just going to ignore it anyways.

Former HOA President
EdC5
(Florida)

Posts:57


07/04/2018 7:56 AM  
I'll add this little tidbit: you don't live in an HOA; you live in a COA, which in FL is a different chapter in the statutes. Chapter 718.111(5)(a) states: The association has the irrevocable right of access to each unit during reasonable hours, when necessary for the maintenance, repair, or replacement of any common elements or of any portion of a unit to be maintained by the association pursuant to the declaration or as necessary to prevent damage to the common elements or to a unit.

Fumigation (I would think) falls under the maintenance of common elements.

Edward J Cooke, CMCA, LCAM
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


07/04/2018 9:02 AM  
I would not give them the code to your alarm system. That is just a bad idea from a security standpoint. The person you give the code to may be an honest person but how do you know they are going to keep it in a way no one else has access to it? How do you know the next guy is going to be honest and protect the pass code?

As you mentioned, they are entitled to have a key and can gain access during an emergency. An alarm system does not prevent that.

As long as your CC&Rs don't require it, I think you are within your rights by not giving them the code.
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1193


07/04/2018 9:18 AM  
I agree with Ben, not having the code does not prevent access. With a monitored alarm, you would get a call from the alarm company before they dispatch police so there is still control over that. Put a note by the alarm panel with your number that can be called by anybody who sets off the alarm and they can explain to you why the police shouldn't be called.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5654


07/04/2018 9:25 AM  
Out of 200+ units, Ben. Only three won't give us their alarm code or key. So I disagree it's abad idea. it's very common in condo buildings and the keys/combo are kept in a safe. We all sign an agreement and the three who don't want the HOA t have this easy access also sign saying they won't give their key/access code and accept any potential consequences.

Our CC&Rs require a 24-hour notice for the HOA to enter a unit. But apparently Trish's do not? This 24-hour notice might b even be CA state law.

The thing is, our docs do not "require" it and maybe Trish's don't either. Her citation doesn't show a "requirement." And of course her unit must be fumigated with all the others.

RichardP13
(California)

Posts:2993


07/04/2018 10:52 AM  
24 hours notice is required in California, except>/b> in an emergency.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5654


07/04/2018 11:37 AM  
Ah, thanks, Richard. I tho't it was CA law, but wasn't sure.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/04/2018 12:02 PM  
"Sorry you get sick over it but it's a necessary" What kind of monsters think it's okay to kill someone over the right to spray for bugs? (Besides, my neighbors, of course)

No one has a right to cause anaphylactic shock on another individual. I showed them documentation of ER visits which were "coincidentally" happening the day following fumigation. I told them that one more "coincidence" and I would have more than enough to sue for reckless disregard, and that I was always going to go immediately to the ER instead of trying to self-treat with steroids and anti-histamines, which I had done many times trying to avoid an ER visit, which btw, costs me $500 for the deductible and 20% of the costs, for an average of $2,000 per ER visit.

I also had my allergist write a letter noting that it's entirely possible that I might go into anaphylactic shock while sleeping and never wake up. She recommended that the Association provide me with alternate accommodations close by on the days fumigation took place, and noted that the more I am exposed to an allergen, the more severe reactions will become. And since I live on the beach in Broward Cty, where hotels go for $500+ a night during season, they finally decided to back down and not fumigate the apartment due to the risk of being sued and not wanting to take on the added expense of having to house me elsewhere for 24 hrs.

I won't be charged until the third false alarm. And I can turn off the alarm myself with my phone from anywhere, even overseas. I have already turned off the sound, making my alarm totally silent, because I hate loud noises. No neighbors will be bothered. This is 2018 not 1988, security systems are much more sophisticated. The Association isn't going to respond to any alarms because only the police will be notified. Most of these people aren't even here most of the year. Our building is 90% empty from May to November.

I'm not sure how an alarm is responsible for someone tripping in the attic. She must have died instantly because people can drag themselves with their arms.

TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/04/2018 12:22 PM  
Our CC&Rs have two sections that address access to units, the first one is the right to go in due to an emergency. I am not questioning that one. The second states that they can go in for maintenance and what-have-you ONLY at reasonable times and with reasonable advance notice. I am not opposed to that one either.

The problem is that there have been instances where the people with access to the keys have entered units for reasons unknown. I am the only person with an alarm system now, but others have cameras with motion detection recording 24/7 that can be accessed through the internet. You can get one for like $50 nowadays and if that's all you need, then it's a cheap way to semi-secure your space and be notified of activity. 90% of the owners here are snowbirds who don't leave anything of real value to worry about, and being retired, they can dispense with the expense of a monitored alarm system which is going to cost over $1,500 a year to secure basically nothing.

So these owners noticed the past president of the Association entering their units and they went nuts. Chaos ensued. Past president got voted out. But understand that what prompted these folks to install a camera was that the PREVIOUS president before him had ALSO done the same thing. There is a history here of bored retired men snooping.

Unlike 90% if the owners, who actually have their permanent residence elsewhere, this is my permanent residence and I reside in my unit all days of the year. I receive mail here. At any given time, there could be investment statements, bank statements, credit cards, cash, sensitive identity documents, electronics, jewelry and other valuables left in plain sight. Therefore, I require the reasonable advance notice for non-emergencies that CC&R says I'm due to allow time for me to inspect and secure that which I deem sensitive or valuable. And I can work from home whenever I want, so if they need to come here for anything, I can arrange to be here.

And let's not forget that they have lost my keys twice. Who knows who has them. I should have insisted they rekeyed or replaced my locks.

TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/04/2018 12:45 PM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 07/03/2018 10:22 PM

AND if this went before a Court of Laws ... Potentially the Court would consider your alarm codes the same as keys. Do you really want to go down the Lawsuit Road where you can potentially LOOSE???



I could lose, but I could also win. If my water heater broke, and water is flooding my apartment, how does a silent alarm going off prevent anyone from dealing with the water heater when they are already inside my apartment?

And I should probably mention that our current property manager lives 45 mins away in Delray Beach. His distance is more dangerous in an emergency than the lack of an alarm code.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5654


07/04/2018 1:55 PM  
Our onsite PM lives far away too, Trish, as does our building engineer. Our onsite security staff know who to call when there are emergencies. If you don't have such staff, I'm sure your Board has assignments for emergencies. With such a low occupancy rate, it's very conceivable a leak, however small, could go undetected for days or longer until it starts flooding other units.

Of course you should receive 24 hours notice so you can leave for fumigation. All units must be fumigated for it to be effective. But why does this fumigation occur so often (it seems)?
We too have $500/night waterfront hotels. But we also have nice ones 6 blocks from the water that are under $150 night.

Have to say I'm shocked, given your experiences, that you haven't changed the locks yourself!

Janet, you seem to be yelling a lot nowadays, so your repeated misspelling of "lose" really shows up. I do agree with you though.
.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/04/2018 2:35 PM  
I know when pest control comes. It's the second Thursday of the month. Most times, I'm on anti-histamines and prednisone before returning home from work. And I tend to delay my return by going to Happy Hour with friends to help air the place out. But to be honest, I shouldn't have to medicate myself so that the Association can spray. They have a right to spray, but they don't have a right to make me sick, to make me take medication, or to make me spend money because of their spraying. Their rights end where mine begin. Their spraying injures my body and affects my ability to breathe.

I shouldn't be the one that has to pay to stay elsewhere. I have a home to live in. The Association
should pay, if they insist fumigation is so necessary, because they are the ones directing and paying for pest control. I would have already be inconvenienced by having to pack and go elsewhere.

And even after 24hrs, it's possible I can have a reaction anyway, which is what my doctor was saying when she said that my sensitivity to the chemicals could increase with additional exposures. She told me that even delaying my return would not be enough at some point, as it hasn't been twice in the last 18 mos.

The Hampton Inn off on Federal Hwy books for over $200 a night during season, before taxes, and it's really about what one can find when season is here. The less expensive hotels fill up first, you get what you get, and this being South Florida, it gets pricey during season. Off season, they might be able to book the Hampton Inn for $109+ tax. But they don't want to pay that either.

Mostly because it can happen that I could still have reactions even after 24 hours. My doctor, with MD behind her name, won't put in writing that 24 hours is all I need. She just said it was the minimum they should arrange for me, though it might not be enough. No one can predict when someone will be come more sensitive to an allergen. Not even MDs. It happens when it happens and the only way to prevent it from happening is to not be exposed to the allergen, which was her recommendation.

So it would be a waste of money to pay my lodging as they still be at risk should I have another reaction, and at that point, I'll be suing for ALL past medical expenses. So they decided to "honor my request" and not spray.




KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5654


07/04/2018 4:01 PM  
Aha! Having lived in Miami, I should have known the fumigation was monthly as we did for our home there. I and perhaps others thought you were referring to termite fumigation, tents, etc., which happens very infrequently.

The way I see it with this new info is that It's OK for the HOA to skip your unit with this monthly service. Bugs are gonna get in anyway.

Do any of your governing documents state the POA must have monthly access for this service?

I think if I were on the Board, I might suggest to the other directors that we ask you to sign a waiver of this service and agree that any bugs you find are solely your responsibility. We'd want, I imagine, a letter from your MD saying everything you've told us.

Not sure what you mean by the HOA paying for the fumigation, Trish, but believe you too probably are paying for it.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/04/2018 4:28 PM  
They have a letter from my MD. I'm sure their attorney told them that no one gets to argue against an MD's opinion unless they are an MD themselves and have examined the same patient, and that it was in their best interest to grant my request to not risk a lawsuit.

My MD also sent the same letter to the pest control service asking for the chemical composition of what they were using, so that she could test me for the allergen. You can imagine what sort of uproar that created. The Pest Control company was refusing to fumigate unless the Association complied with my MD's request, and oh, btw, the Association would still have to pay them the remainder of their contract. The pest control company didn't want to get sued either.

The irony of this is that I have never seen any bugs here, and I hardly ever cook. I follow an 18/6 eating plan and, other than a morning cup of coffee and an occasional evening tea, there's no cooking here. On the weekends, I tend to eat out.

Yes, the governing documents state that units will be fumigated monthly. But here's the thing, just because you have a right to park in your driveway, doesn't mean you have the right to run over a kid who happens to be playing there. You can't even do that to a dog. No one has the right to deliberately injure anyone else.

Anyway, this whole thread is really about the alarm code. I've resolved the fumigation issue. The pest control company itself is going to make sure they don't come in here.



BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


07/04/2018 4:48 PM  
Posted By TrishC on 07/04/2018 4:28 PM
But here's the thing, just because you have a right to park in your driveway, doesn't mean you have the right to run over a kid who happens to be playing there. You can't even do that to a dog.



Of course I have a right to run over a kid in MY driveway but I would never run over a dog.

Just kidding

Seriously though, you bring up a good point. In today's society you can't just tell people with allergies and health issues to "suck it up" for the good of the majority. The courts tend to frown on that. One of the problems I think many people have with HOAs is the disregard for individual rights. Not all HOAs are like that but there is no shortage of that attitude.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/04/2018 5:43 PM  
And I wouldn't doubt that there are people claiming fictitious allergies because they are afraid of exposure to chemicals or because they think the chemicals used are not environmentally friendly. Or because they don't want strange people in their unit.

I've lived here 10 years, far longer than I had originally planned. These people have heard of my ER visits and allergic reactions. They see I wear a medical ID bracelet. Most previous Association presidents have been accommodating, but the pest control guy they send here can change from one month to the next, so you tell one, but next month they send someone else.

During season, my neighbor, who was the past (snooping) Assn president, made sure that he was around the complex on fumigation day to tell the pest guy not to spray my unit when he came around to our side. But that's not consistent, because when he and his wife were on a cruise in Feb 2017, they weren't here to stop it. And since I forgot they were away, I came home immediately after work. By 9pm, I was in the ER. They didn't like how shallow my breathing was, even after they treated me, so they ended up keeping me until the following day. Out of pocket costs: $3,000.




GeorgeR8
(Arizona)

Posts:154


07/05/2018 4:41 AM  
People may have forgotten that the poster is a renter. She should be going through the owner of the unit not going to the board on her own.


As to water leaks, every condo I have owned in the last 40 years had a rule that water and water heater must be turned off if the condo is vacated for more than a day or two.


MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7611


07/05/2018 4:56 AM  
Fumigating here is the WRONG term. Fumigating is something more intense. It involved tenting of the building/home. This is just that monthly bug treatment where they spray along the walls. They did it in my apartment monthly. No big deal. Barely could smell the stuff at all. Only time I did was because I was there with the bug guy directly. Otherwise, the stuff is pretty odorless. If it's not, then maybe they have a different chemical they can use. The reason there is no bugs is because they do treat the other places too.

This person is a renter. So any issues should be addressed with the owner. The owner should have the alarm code no matter what. Even if you don't give it to the HOA, the owner should have it. It is then up to the owner to decide if the HOA should have it or not. NOT the Renter. Sorry but if you don't own the place, then your just residing there. Which doesn't make you a HOA member.

Plus I hope you have renter's insurance. That is the most important thing to have besides a code. I will tell you that false alarms don't sit well with the police. So you may not mind it going off for hours while your not there but your neighbor's do. If you don't want the HOA to have it, then find a neighbor you trust.

Former HOA President
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:569


07/05/2018 6:06 AM  
The OP is a renter ...no Board is going to fund a renter to stay offsite during monthly insecticide usage.

Did the OP have a basic understanding of the HOA rules?

It seems to me the OP is attempting to shift costs to the HOA for her medical issues - at a basic level, this could be a issue between OP and the property owner, but certainly not the HOA.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/05/2018 6:39 AM  
Posted By GeorgeR8 on 07/05/2018 4:41 AM
People may have forgotten that the poster is a renter. She should be going through the owner of the unit not going to the board on her own.


As to water leaks, every condo I have owned in the last 40 years had a rule that water and water heater must be turned off if the condo is vacated for more than a day or two.






Yes, water is turned off at the main for each unit when they leave after season. We also shut it off if we need to evacuate for a storm. No one is asked to turn off their water when they leave for the weekend, or even for a week-long cruise. That's a bit excessive, I think.

The owner is also involved. She's also fighting HOA on this. I'm just trying to find answers on my own.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/05/2018 6:50 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/05/2018 4:56 AM

This person is a renter. So any issues should be addressed with the owner. The owner should have the alarm code no matter what. Even if you don't give it to the HOA, the owner should have it. It is then up to the owner to decide if the HOA should have it or not. NOT the Renter. Sorry but if you don't own the place, then your just residing there. Which doesn't make you a HOA member.

Plus I hope you have renter's insurance. That is the most important thing to have besides a code. I will tell you that false alarms don't sit well with the police. So you may not mind it going off for hours while your not there but your neighbor's do. If you don't want the HOA to have it, then find a neighbor you trust.





The owner has given them the key to my door. I have two separate keys, and they had lost the deadbolt one this time. Last time it was the one on the knob, which was what I replaced. They still had that one. The owner has her own alarm code. She doesn't want the Association to have an alarm code either. She's completely supportive, as I discussed the alarm installation with her prior to installing it. She even offered to pay for some the monthly expense, but I got a good deal bundling it with my Xfinity internet and I'm only paying an extra $50 per month for it.

Of course I have renter's insurance. If you read above, my alarm is SILENT. No one is going to be bothered. The police don't care. Our little beach community is about as crime free as is possible. Only thing that happens here is people getting out of control on vacation, or smoking weed.


TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/05/2018 6:57 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 07/05/2018 6:06 AM
The OP is a renter ...no Board is going to fund a renter to stay offsite during monthly insecticide usage.

Did the OP have a basic understanding of the HOA rules?

It seems to me the OP is attempting to shift costs to the HOA for her medical issues - at a basic level, this could be a issue between OP and the property owner, but certainly not the HOA.




Nope. The owner has requested they stop spraying my apartment due to my health issues. She's not the one controlling the monthly spraying, the Association is. So my owner has done all she can do to stop it, barring planting herself at the door to stop it, which would be unreasonable. She cannot be held liable.

And I haven't shifted costs to the HOA. But I would have if they persisted. Up until now, I have absorbed thousands of dollars in medical expenses. Just because I can afford it, doesn't mean I should be forced to spend it.

Their own attorney told them to stop. So anyone saying any different about this bug spray matter is wrong.
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2251


07/05/2018 9:29 AM  
Posted By GeorgeR8 on 07/05/2018 4:41 AM
People may have forgotten that the poster is a renter. She should be going through the owner of the unit not going to the board on her own.


As to water leaks, every condo I have owned in the last 40 years had a rule that water and water heater must be turned off if the condo is vacated for more than a day or two.







I was just about to say that - thanks George!

This doesn't mean Trish hasn't come up with some valid points, but this is another issue I have with owner/landlords - why don't THEY get up and talk to the board or property manager about any questions or issues the renter has instead of the renter trying to figure all this out with the board??? She's a renter so that could be part of the reason they haven't been as responsive (yes, I know that's rude).

Instead, these guys and gals seem to look at the association (board and property manager) as a type of el-cheapo property manager that have to handle renter issues when that's the job of the owner, not the tenant (after all the association doesn't get anything from the rental - the owner has to pay assessments whether the place is rented or not).
SheliaH
(Indiana)

Posts:2251


07/05/2018 9:29 AM  
Posted By GeorgeR8 on 07/05/2018 4:41 AM
People may have forgotten that the poster is a renter. She should be going through the owner of the unit not going to the board on her own.


As to water leaks, every condo I have owned in the last 40 years had a rule that water and water heater must be turned off if the condo is vacated for more than a day or two.







I was just about to say that - thanks George!

This doesn't mean Trish hasn't come up with some valid points, but this is another issue I have with owner/landlords - why don't THEY get up and talk to the board or property manager about any questions or issues the renter has instead of the renter trying to figure all this out with the board??? She's a renter so that could be part of the reason they haven't been as responsive (yes, I know that's rude).

Instead, these guys and gals seem to look at the association (board and property manager) as a type of el-cheapo property manager that have to handle renter issues when that's the job of the owner, not the tenant (after all the association doesn't get anything from the rental - the owner has to pay assessments whether the place is rented or not).
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


07/05/2018 10:04 AM  
Posted By GeorgeR8 on 07/05/2018 4:41 AM
People may have forgotten that the poster is a renter. She should be going through the owner of the unit not going to the board on her own.


As to water leaks, every condo I have owned in the last 40 years had a rule that water and water heater must be turned off if the condo is vacated for more than a day or two.






Hm. We can't. To turn water off for one unit, the whole building has to be turned off.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


07/05/2018 10:14 AM  
Trish is going through her LL. There is no reason she cannot help LL with research.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/05/2018 12:12 PM  
Posted By SheliaH on 07/05/2018 9:29 AM


... but this is another issue I have with owner/landlords - why don't THEY get up and talk to the board or property manager about any questions or issues the renter has instead of the renter trying to figure all this out with the board??? She's a renter so that could be part of the reason they haven't been as responsive (yes, I know that's rude).

Instead, these guys and gals seem to look at the association (board and property manager) as a type of el-cheapo property manager that have to handle renter issues when that's the job of the owner, not the tenant (after all the association doesn't get anything from the rental - the owner has to pay assessments whether the place is rented or not).


]

My landlord has spoken to the board. She's been great. They're ignoring her also. We have a small building of only 20 units. Only two of us live here year round. Turnover has mostly happened if an owner gets too old or too sick to use it during season any more. It has been a great group of people until the new president came along. About 70% of owners are from Montreal, 20% from the US and wouldn't you know it, the new president is from Michigan. The Canadian ones were so polite...

The reason I am involved is because it's my alarm code they want. I don't want to give it to them, and the landlord is backing me up, she says it's up to me.

Again, I have lived here over 10 years. All these people know me and until this, we've gotten along. The fact that I have put up with my unit being sprayed this long, shows how tolerant I have been. Unfortunately, my sensitivity has increased where I can't risk it any more, but the truth is that I shouldn't have risked it at all. I'm starting to feel they see me as one their kids they can push around.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


07/05/2018 12:19 PM  
Rogue boards treat everyone that way. What else do they come in for?
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5654


07/05/2018 6:15 PM  
Just FYI. Our 17 y.o. high rise and none that I know of around my 'hood have a way for individuals to turn off water to their condo units. We ARE encouraged to turn off the valve to our washing machines when we leave. And we're encouraged to run our washers & dishwashers only when we're home & awake. But there is no rule or covenant about this.

In addition, our AC/heat HVAC system in each unit is a water source heat pump with water always running in a closed loop system--residents can't turn it off, of course.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:569


07/05/2018 6:19 PM  
So, let’s shift to the perspective of another member of the HOA.

I am being asked to pay for your medical issue?

Not my job ...I call the HOA and complain ...they say ...what?

I don’t want to pay for your issues ...I have enough of my own.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/05/2018 7:40 PM  
You might not want to pay for it, but if a court finds the Assn liable, you have no choice but to. The Assn should have liability insurance, and if the Assn is handling things so poorly that it costs you money, then you need to change how the Assn is doing business and the people who are making costly decisions. Not my fault they are injuring me. I'm trying to prevent it! And, again, I haven't sued for damages, I just threatened to do if they wouldn't stop spraying my unit. It's a simple solution to stop spraying.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:569


07/05/2018 8:07 PM  
Trish,

Glad we don’t live in the same complex.

I’d probably be trying to rewrite the CCRs to prevent renting.

My last on this - you have medical issues - and want to force everyone else to deal with them. If I were on the Board, I would slow roll you for as long as possible. Then, I would shift stance, adopt a different strategy - and slow roll you some more. Hoping each time you will move.

Under the circumstances, this would probably be as close to fiduciary as possible.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


07/05/2018 8:17 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 07/05/2018 6:19 PM
So, let’s shift to the perspective of another member of the HOA.

I am being asked to pay for your medical issue?

Not my job ...I call the HOA and complain ...they say ...what?

I don’t want to pay for your issues ...I have enough of my own.



I don't understand how this would be paying for her medical issues. Trish is right that it may cost other owners if the HOA does not act responsibly and loses a lawsuit, but you can't blame her for that.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


07/05/2018 8:38 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 07/05/2018 8:07 PM
Trish,

Glad we don’t live in the same complex.

I’d probably be trying to rewrite the CCRs to prevent renting.

My last on this - you have medical issues - and want to force everyone else to deal with them. If I were on the Board, I would slow roll you for as long as possible. Then, I would shift stance, adopt a different strategy - and slow roll you some more. Hoping each time you will move.

Under the circumstances, this would probably be as close to fiduciary as possible.



Wow, reallY? Attitudes like that is what causes HOAs to get sued and lose. Whether she is a renter or owner, the Fair Housing Act requires reasonable accommodations. All that is required here is a minor change in policy. Playing silly games because you don't like to be inconvenienced by people who aren't blessed with good health is not being fiduciarily responsible.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7611


07/05/2018 8:48 PM  
No. She is NOT a member of the HOA. She has no rights to sue the HOA if she is not a member. Let me ask you this... If you have a member who's tenant has health issues, and sues the HOA for them. How do you respond?

Former HOA President
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


07/05/2018 9:13 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/05/2018 8:48 PM
No. She is NOT a member of the HOA. She has no rights to sue the HOA if she is not a member. Let me ask you this... If you have a member who's tenant has health issues, and sues the HOA for them. How do you respond?




There is no need to be picky with semantics. She could sue/complain against her LL who could then in turn sue the HOA. What difference does it make?

The bottom line is that the OP is doing things correctly, going through her LL. The LL is doing everything in her power to accommodate her tenant and comply with HOA policy and the law. If the HOA obstructs her efforts, they are the ones on the hook.

The HOA should not be coming in whenever they please w/o notice for non-emergency matters, nor should they be spraying after the owner (LL) has made them aware that her tenant has severe allergies to it.

I would assume that if a bug problem develops, LL is going to have to work with tenant on how to resolve it another way.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


07/05/2018 9:37 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/05/2018 8:48 PM
No. She is NOT a member of the HOA. She has no rights to sue the HOA if she is not a member. Let me ask you this... If you have a member who's tenant has health issues, and sues the HOA for them. How do you respond?



That is not correct, the Fair Housing Act applies to renters and owners. It applies to HOAs because people live there. Actually, I don't think the owner, in this case, could sue under the act because she does not live there.

I'm not sure what you mean by how I would respond. You can't expect owners to only rent to healthy people and no one can prevent someone from filing a lawsuit, so I wouldn't blame the owner. The courts are there to settle legal disputes. Yes, many in our society are too quick to sue but sometimes it's necessary.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


07/05/2018 9:55 PM  
To be clear, if the lawsuit were over a disagreement about the rules or covenants, then yes, the owner would be the one who would have to sue. But if the suit is over not making an accommodation for the health issues, it would be a discrimination suit under the Fair Housing Act and the renter would be the one to file the suit because she is the one who is allegedly being discriminated against. Since the owner is not the one suffering harm, he or she could not sue.

JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


07/05/2018 10:19 PM  
I don't see a discrimination issue. Do you mean refusal to accommodate disability?
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7611


07/05/2018 11:32 PM  
The HOA isn't involved in Landlord/Tenant issues. They are a 3rd party to that agreement. Their alliance lay with the member/owner. NOT the renters.

Let me ask the question this way... What if your HOA was presented with a lawsuit because an owner's tenant is complaining of health issues due to the agreed upon offering of services of pest control? Which Pest control is done for the health/protection/sanity of the members. Would your rather have pests in your home eating it and/or getting in your food? Which insects or rodents do carry much worse diseases. Isn't your HOA already participating in the health and welfare of their membership by having this service?

Plus most pest companies are very well aware of the health concerns/issues of their customers. Plus the risks of being sued for providing dangerous chemicals. Would they NOT be the one's who should be sued by the HOA/owner/renter for providing a service that causes health issues? Why is it the HOA's fault for providing a service the membership want for their property?

It would be a different story if the majority of owner's don't want the pest control services due to their health concerns for themselves or tenants. However, I am sure if the HOA was to stop this service there would be a HUGE complaint list. Why is the HOA stopping this service if it's something that is providing peace of mind from pests?

I am not being non-empathetic to someone's health issues. It's just that the reality is that the owner should request the HOA not spray their unit if possible. IF it's determined by experts (pest control) that skipping a unit puts all units at risk for pests, then the service is either continued or stopped for everyone.

Sorry but had to deal with some people who claimed "Health issues" when I put down some dog/cat repellent in an area where dogs were not allowed. I put up a sign and temporary fencing. They claimed it bothered their sinuses and threw a fit. (Mind you they were the one's letting their dog in the area). Well I stopped putting the repellent down but kept the sign/fence up to keep sending out the message keep your dogs out. Well guess what? They still complained about the smell and health issues... It had washed away and wasn't even applied. So no I don't bow down to those with "Health concerns" to change what is necessary.

Former HOA President
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


07/05/2018 11:43 PM  
That is what they are doing. Refraining from spraying her unit only. No one has asked for a change in policy with regard to any other unit, I have no idea where your point in that entire post is supposed to relate to the OP's situation.

JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


07/05/2018 11:52 PM  


Sorry but had to deal with some people who claimed "Health issues" when I put down some dog/cat repellent in an area where dogs were not allowed. I put up a sign and temporary fencing. They claimed it bothered their sinuses and threw a fit. (Mind you they were the one's letting their dog in the area). Well I stopped putting the repellent down but kept the sign/fence up to keep sending out the message keep your dogs out. Well guess what? They still complained about the smell and health issues... It had washed away and wasn't even applied. So no I don't bow down to those with "Health concerns" to change what is necessary.




This in particular bears no relation whatsoever to the topic. You are talking about something applied outside, and someone who was according to you making up their issue.

If you were still President and you refused to 'bow down' to a legitimate, documented health issue, I would just say good luck with that! Because you would have to 'bow down' in the end.

I don't think just sinus issues would count. Ours has put out mulch that I am allergic to. I have a newfound source of sneezing and my eyes swelled up very crazy looking for the first time ever in my life, I know it is that mulch, but it's not a disability. I am not going to the ER over it. I take Zyrtec, I'd rather not, I use 'allergy' eye drops, I'd rather not, but I am pretty sure that this does not qualify as a disabling condition that would require the HOA to remove the mulch.

Apples and oranges to the OP at risk of dying due to chemicals inside her unit.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/06/2018 3:40 AM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 07/05/2018 8:07 PM
Trish,

Glad we don’t live in the same complex.

I’d probably be trying to rewrite the CCRs to prevent renting.

My last on this - you have medical issues - and want to force everyone else to deal with them. If I were on the Board, I would slow roll you for as long as possible. Then, I would shift stance, adopt a different strategy - and slow roll you some more. Hoping each time you will move.

Under the circumstances, this would probably be as close to fiduciary as possible.




Seriously? You're so full of your own hubris and power that you would refuse your own attorney's advice after being told YOU ARE CERTAINLY LIABLE AND TO STOP SPRAYING?!

You really put the ASS in ASSociation!
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/06/2018 3:44 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/05/2018 8:48 PM
No. She is NOT a member of the HOA. She has no rights to sue the HOA if she is not a member. Let me ask you this... If you have a member who's tenant has health issues, and sues the HOA for them. How do you respond?




Jesus! All these amateur attorneys. If a visitor is at the complex and is injured due to negligence in repairing/maintaining something, the visitor can sue. I can sue the Association for injury also, even if I am not a member. If someone deliberately harms anyone else under any circumstances, you don't have to meet any special membership criteria to sue them.
TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/06/2018 3:58 AM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/05/2018 11:32 PM


Plus most pest companies are very well aware of the health concerns/issues of their customers. Plus the risks of being sued for providing dangerous chemicals. Would they NOT be the one's who should be sued by the HOA/owner/renter for providing a service that causes health issues? Why is it the HOA's fault for providing a service the membership want for their property?




Had you bothered to read this thread, you would have learned that I got my doctor involved. My doctor sent a letter to the Assn, the Assn's atty, and to the pest control company.

The pest control company told the Assn they would no longer come into the property AT ALL until they addressed my situation, and oh, btw, they were still on the hook to fulfill the remainder of the contract. They don't want to get sued for personal injury.

The pest control company cannot selectively choose where to spray. It has to fulfill the terms of its contract until the contract is amended. They don't want to get sued for breach of contract and give the Assn reason to not pay them.

I guess what I find most troubling about your post, is that you are well aware that pest control companies are "very well aware of the health concerns/issues of their customers", which means you know that these chemicals can be injurious to others, and you really don't give a damn about others being injured. Wow. Just wow.


TrishC
(Florida)

Posts:26


07/06/2018 4:03 AM  
Can we go back to "whether I legally have to give Assn access code for the alarm" issue please?

The pest control issue was partly to highlight the unprofessional and illegal actions of the Association and my concern that they would continue to behave improperly once they have an access code and enter my unit without cause.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:436


07/06/2018 4:14 AM  
Posted By TrishC on 07/06/2018 4:03 AM
Can we go back to "whether I legally have to give Assn access code for the alarm" issue please?

The pest control issue was partly to highlight the unprofessional and illegal actions of the Association and my concern that they would continue to behave improperly once they have an access code and enter my unit without cause.




I would not worry about it if I were you. The LL is the one they have control over on that or not, and she is backing you. It's between them, honestly. If they make a stink about it, it will be with her. Let the onus be on them to prove they do.

Their only method of forcing that is a fine for non-compliance. I would hope that they send a warning letter before any fines were levied, here there has to be a certain number of days given to cure the violation, so worst case scenario you give it temporarily to fend off a fine, and then continue to work on how NOT to give it to them.

What are these other non-emergency things they come in for w/o notice?
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7611


07/06/2018 5:14 AM  
This is a classic manipulation... Notice when another issue is brought up, the conversation is diverted? What is so illegal of the HOA to provide Pest Control or the other issues the OP keeps bringing up? Don't see it. I don't fall for the old "I have health issues". Find 90 percent of the time that is a manipulation of a person to get what they want. Sounds mean but everyone here has seen it. If not, then you really need to buy my seaside land in Arizona.

The HOA having the alarm code? So what? Really? Guess what IF something is stolen guess who is my FIRST and ONLY suspect? Kind of widdles down the suspects doesn't it? Well only 1 person has the code... Gee then I wonder who the police should question first... I for one am NOT against the HOA having the code. It's 1 person who doesn't even live nearby. It's a silent alarm according the OP.

Guess because I've been on someone's list to respond to the "I've fallen and can't get up" alarms, have a different view. Personally, knowing that if I were to have an emergency, I know someone would respond would be a plus to me. The police charging money for responding is another factor. Overall, someone having my alarm code isn't a big bother to me and gladly give it to someone. Otherwise, I really wonder what the real issue is? It's not because you would not know who to suspect...

Former HOA President
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