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Subject: One member paying the dues of another member to receive their proxy vote
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BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/03/2018 2:35 PM  
Team,

I am the President of my POA. We are holding a vote this month regarding several issues. I have a member(A) who is paying the annual dues of a delinquent member(B) in order to receive member(B)'s votes. He is attempting to proxy hoard which is not improper. However, surely the POA cannot accept member(A) essential paying for member(B)'s vote?


Let me know what I should do as President.


Thanks,
Brent
TimB4
(Virginia)

Posts:16004


07/03/2018 2:41 PM  
Leave it alone.

Is it more important to have everyone current or the fact that you suspect someone is "buying" votes?
BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/03/2018 2:47 PM  
I understand that sentiment. The neighborhood is actually wanting to pass these votes. This member is aiming to prevent that by paying off members who have more votes than the rest of the community.

Do I as President allow that?
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2463


07/03/2018 2:56 PM  
I think the answer is "yes". Even if "buying a proxy" was illegal it's not your business how an owner came into the posession of a validly given proxy. If the proxy is valid it should be counted.
AugustinD


Posts:1139


07/03/2018 2:57 PM  
Posted By BrentS5 on 07/03/2018 2:35 PM
I am the President of my POA. We are holding a vote this month regarding several issues. I have a member(A) who is paying the annual dues of a delinquent member(B) in order to receive member(B)'s votes. He is attempting to proxy hoard which is not improper. However, surely the POA cannot accept member(A) essential paying for member(B)'s vote?
Let me know what I should do as President.


-- The POA must accept anything not prohibited in the governing documents, municipal law, state law and federal law. I have never seen governing documents that prohibit one member paying the assessment or fines of other members.

-- As President, the only powers you have are those conferred by the governing documents. Chances are this means that you as President cannot act alone against a member, contractor, employee, et cetera. Instead, it is the Board who acts.

-- Proxy hoarding is not only "not improper." It is also a long-established legal custom of corporations, including HOAs.

-- Your board could keep repeating the vote, say once a year, on whatever issues until the guy runs out of money.

MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7713


07/03/2018 3:04 PM  
One vote per lot is typically the ratio of voting in most HOA's. How does everyone not have the same vote? Little confused there. For me, let them pay away the debts of non-paying members. If they fall for it, then so be it. Their vote is their vote to do what they want with it.

I will say that I would be suspicious of this person's motives for paying of so many debts of owners. That does have a certain smell to it. What it is, not quite apparent at this time. The HOA can't be part of the agreement between those owners. So finding out what the terms are for the pay-off would have to be voluntary to reveal. Which would be interesting to find out the intent.

My gut feel is this person's well intentions aren't. It's not necessarily the voting. My concern is what they want with that much voting power. What would it benefit them to have it? Do they want to be on the board or control it? How does the payoff of debt play into all of this? Seems there is more to this story and intent than is being revealed.

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:1139


07/03/2018 3:06 PM  
Posted By BrentS5 on 07/03/2018 2:47 PM
I understand that sentiment. The neighborhood is actually wanting to pass these votes. This member is aiming to prevent that by paying off members who have more votes than the rest of the community. Do I as President allow that?


If enough people are willing to sell their proxy such that the vote on these issues fails, then I cannot see how you can conclude that the neighborhood supports passing these issues.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2463


07/03/2018 3:30 PM  
There was an arbitration case in Florida where a group of owners conducted a raffle. The price of a ticket was giving them a proxy. The association contended that that amounted to an illegal lottery and that the proxies were invalid. The association lost when the arbitrator ruled that even if it was an illegal lottery, the Division of Business & Professional Responsiblity had no jurisdiction to enforce the state's gambling laws. The proxies were completely valid and that was the only thing that mattered.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5842


07/03/2018 3:56 PM  
Member A is a sleazy jerk. but there's nothing the Board can do os far as I know. As Augustin points out, in any case, the president has no such individual authority unless the Board has given up their powers to you, Brent.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:746


07/03/2018 4:49 PM  
Is there anything in writing regarding the payment of A by B?

Has there been a public pronouncement, verbally, about this, by A or B that would allow someone to sign an affidavit?

Is there a payment audit trail? Check or credit card payment?

I think, at one point, with enough evidence, this could be contested ...expensively.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:7812


07/03/2018 6:38 PM  
Brent

I do not see this as a BOD issue. It is a matter between two owners.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:746


07/03/2018 7:43 PM  
Buying votes has never been between two people ....it is way worse than unethical.

To ignore it is shortsighted.

What’s next?
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


07/03/2018 9:11 PM  
Posted By BrentS5 on 07/03/2018 2:47 PM
I understand that sentiment. The neighborhood is actually wanting to pass these votes. This member is aiming to prevent that by paying off members who have more votes than the rest of the community.

Do I as President allow that?




You say a a majority wants to pass these votes, but many are being persuaded not to because they are up against a wall being delinquent?
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2463


07/03/2018 9:13 PM  
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 07/03/2018 7:43 PM
Buying votes has never been between two people ....it is way worse than unethical.

To ignore it is shortsighted.

What’s next?

Neither the board nor the directors nor officers have any legal standing to interfere between a proxy giver and a proxyholder. There's no exception for white knights. It's nobody else's business.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


07/03/2018 9:26 PM  
Posted By GenoS on 07/03/2018 9:13 PM
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 07/03/2018 7:43 PM
Buying votes has never been between two people ....it is way worse than unethical.

To ignore it is shortsighted.

What’s next?

Neither the board nor the directors nor officers have any legal standing to interfere between a proxy giver and a proxyholder. There's no exception for white knights. It's nobody else's business.




True, but if people are being persuaded to vote against what they actually want due to someone willing to pay them off, were I on that board I would try to think of a way to remedy that. I'm not sure if it's possible, but I would brainstorm.

Do your docs allow for delinquent homeowners to cast votes?
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


07/03/2018 10:14 PM  
Posted By BrentS5 on 07/03/2018 2:35 PM
Team,

I am the President of my POA. We are holding a vote this month regarding several issues. I have a member(A) who is paying the annual dues of a delinquent member(B) in order to receive member(B)'s votes. He is attempting to proxy hoard which is not improper. However, surely the POA cannot accept member(A) essential paying for member(B)'s vote?

Let me know what I should do as President.

Thanks,
Brent


LET THEM PAY!!!! It does not matter who PAYS as long as the HOA receives their money!!! My Mom, my Brother, my Sister, etc. could pay my HOA dues for me “IF” I had ever fallen behind (which will not happen) but used as an example. This is an example of a beyond stupid question ...

JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


07/03/2018 10:50 PM  
Posted By MelissaP1 on 07/03/2018 3:04 PM
One vote per lot is typically the ratio of voting in most HOA's. How does everyone not have the same vote? Little confused there.




We have % based voting and on top of that some people own several units, so there is more than one way for some people to have a larger share of the voting power than others.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2463


07/03/2018 11:00 PM  
I realize Brent, the OP, is from South Carolina, and the answer he's looking for will be found somewhere in that state's laws.

In Florida that proxy, if it's filled out correctly, is valid. Have a look at this Petition for Arbitration, Case No. 2009-01-2882, heard by a Florida DBPR arbitrator. The issues are not exactly the same but the reasoning and logic behind the decision spring from the same statutes where the validity of proxies is concerned. In particular, have a look at pages 8 and 9 where this Final Order says:

"Respondent argues that proxies must be verified in order to avoid fraud, and that the legislature has only provided minimum requirements for the form of proxies. On the contrary, the legislature specified requirements for a proxy “to be valid”, including detailed information, the date signed and signature of the person executing the proxy, and it set limits on the use of the proxy. Use of such a proxy is not merely an option but a “right”, unless otherwise provided by the legislature or governing documents. The only choice for an association is to amend the documents to prohibit proxies or to accept proxies executed according to the legislated instructions. A homeowners’ association may not impose rules or limits on a proxy the legislature has already declared to be valid.

Although the requirement for verification may seem attractive to avoid fraud, the legislature chose not to limit homeowners with such a requirement."

(emphasis added)

No other statute or governing document gives anyone the power to declare themself "Protector of Rights". Busybody boards and board members need to step off their soapboxes and follow the law. Which, again, is certainly going to be different in South Carolina than it is in FL. A proxy can be rejected if it appears defective (the board does not get to define "defective"). Otherwise, you have no choice but to accept it.
BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/04/2018 5:37 AM  
Basically, the person he’s paying off has 20 empty lots. There are only 13 homeowners out of 72 lots.

He basically wins every vote when he secures proxy for the empty lots, he can immediately vote me out of office if he wanted, vote himself president, and just start passing whatever he wants whether the other 12 owners want or not.

Yes, rest of the neighborhood wants something. This guy doesn’t. He’s buying the votes of the empty lot people who don’t care about the votes one way or the other.
BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/04/2018 5:40 AM  
And yes I have a paper trail. He called me and told me he was going to buy their votes. He emailed me asking the amounts they owed on Facebook and said in writing he was going to pay them off. I’m waiting on the checks written by him to the POA in the amounts they owed.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7713


07/04/2018 5:48 AM  
WWWWWooooo!!!! Hold on a minute! You do NOT tell this person how much they owe!!! OMG! It is up to the OWNER who owes the money to be informed. They are the one's who call. We would NEVER EVER tell someone how much someone owes if they are NOT the member themselves. This sounds way too fishy to me. Plus sounds like a trick they are playing to find out who owes money.

The HOA does NOT need to be involved in this like that. If the owner owes money and wants to give this guy their vote, then that is between them. That owner has to contact the HOA to find out the amount they owe. Plus I would also have a policy in place when one places a lien. We did it at 6 months we would lien. 1 year we CONSIDER foreclosure. So if your HOA isn't doing this, then you have more issues.

Former HOA President
BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/04/2018 5:55 AM  
We only have a few thousand in the bank. How are we supposed to secure a lawyer and pave the roads? I don’t have the money to do anything but send notices to these people.
BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/04/2018 5:57 AM  
We receive $3,750 if all owners pay. It’s not per lot. It’s per “improved” lot. The owner of one house on a lot pays $150 and the owner of 20 vacancy lots pays $150
BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/04/2018 6:00 AM  
The owner was also on the phone when this member called me. They are good friends apparently.
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7713


07/04/2018 6:13 AM  
So what? They may be working together. You get your legal costs back for filing a lien. It does not always take a lawyer but a legal service. It is just a few hundred dollars to file a lien. Sounds like you have alot to learn and ask right questions. This guy is riding roughshot at this point.

Former HOA President
AugustinD


Posts:1139


07/04/2018 6:52 AM  
Posted By BrentS5 on 07/04/2018 5:57 AM
We receive $3,750 if all owners pay. It’s not per lot. It’s per “improved” lot. The owner of one house on a lot pays $150 and the owner of 20 vacancy lots pays $150


Please confirm: Do your HOA's governing documents say that the owner of the one house on a lot has one vote, while the owner of 20 vacant lots has 20 votes?

If so, then yes, the 20 vacant lot owner has the right to exercise his or her proxy the way he or she wants. Geno's right to cite some case law on the completion of proxies. I have seen other case law (when an issue arose about proxies where I am). A board may not place more restrictions on proxies than the governing documents state. My take is that's become pretty much a nationwide rule.

Janet, is that really necessary? I am sticking with 'the only stupid question is an unasked one (assuming the person asking has made a little effort to research the situation).' It's not easy being a volunteer director of a corporation with massive infrastructure needs, especially with apathy naturally running rampant.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5842


07/04/2018 8:37 AM  
I agree that Janet was out of line with her reply.

Brent, see your bylaws, I doubt Member A can vote you out as president unless he's on the Board. He can vote himself onto the Board with all of those proxies, though. And then he could vote himself in as prez.
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


07/04/2018 8:49 AM  
I think this is a real problem. An owner has a right to give another their proxy (assuming it is allowed in your governing documents) just as a politician can vote however they want. However, if someone pays a politician to vote a certain way, that is bribery and is a crime. Whether the crime or bribery in NC applies to people who aren't public officials or not, I don't know, but the same principle applies. It's corrupt even if it's not illegal.

Before someone argues the point, I realize politicians get donations all the time for the expectation of a certain vote but they are usually smart enough to make it hard to prove it was a quid pro quo.
AugustinD


Posts:1139


07/04/2018 3:09 PM  
BenA2, this is why I think Brent's question is a good one. In many lawsuits, the courts have ruled HOAs to be quasi-governmental. Depending on the issues, this may affect the court's decision-making. From the standpoint that a HOA is a governmental-type entity, it would seem like buying a proxy should not be allowed. But HOAs are also shareholder-owned corporations. Some lawsuits even refer to HOA members as "shareholders." As I think all the regulars here know, HOAs are typically subject both to a state's HOA and/or condo statutes and the state's corporate statutes. Does any state's corporate code have statues prohibiting paying someone for their proxy? Also, as Geno noted and as I have found, the courts do not support putting restrictions on proxies that are outside the corporation's governing documents. So far I cannot see any illegality or anything even unethical here. If I wanted to know more, I would look into whether non-HOA corporate America ever prohibits paying a shareholder to vote a certain way.
AugustinD


Posts:1139


07/04/2018 3:44 PM  
Some discussion of vote buying in corporate America --

-- 2005 article on vote buying done by Hewlett Packard in 2002 in merger effort:
https://hbr.org/2005/06/shareholder-votes-for-sale
"Buying votes? It may be illegal in politics, but in the corporate arena, it is a legitimate, if controversial, strategic tool."

-- 2001 article: https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/washlr76&div=28&id=&page=

-- 2011 academic article: http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/~wolinsky/Paper/shares&votes.pdf
Article abstract notes the courts did not always approve vote buying in corporate America

-- 1979 article on vote buying among corporations owned by shareholders:
https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3173&context=caselrev
BenA2
(Texas)

Posts:531


07/04/2018 4:34 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 07/04/2018 3:09 PM
BenA2, this is why I think Brent's question is a good one. In many lawsuits, the courts have ruled HOAs to be quasi-governmental. Depending on the issues, this may affect the court's decision-making. From the standpoint that a HOA is a governmental-type entity, it would seem like buying a proxy should not be allowed. But HOAs are also shareholder-owned corporations. Some lawsuits even refer to HOA members as "shareholders." As I think all the regulars here know, HOAs are typically subject both to a state's HOA and/or condo statutes and the state's corporate statutes. Does any state's corporate code have statues prohibiting paying someone for their proxy? Also, as Geno noted and as I have found, the courts do not support putting restrictions on proxies that are outside the corporation's governing documents. So far I cannot see any illegality or anything even unethical here. If I wanted to know more, I would look into whether non-HOA corporate America ever prohibits paying a shareholder to vote a certain way.



Good points, Augustine. If this ever went to court it probably would hinge a lot on the state's corporate law.

I doubt buying proxies is illegal in most states but it doesn't pass the smell test.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2463


07/04/2018 5:26 PM  
The lottery decision in Florida, DBPR Case No. 2008-06-5770, mentioned the similarities to the civil elections of public officials. It notes a 1916 Kansas case about vote-buying by a candidate for public office. It said purchased votes should not count and anyone purchasing votes should not be allowed to hold office.

The arbitrator's decision, however, relied on shareholder rights as put forth by corporate law.

In the Florida case, an owner solicited proxies and said anyone who gave him a proxy would be entered into a drawing for cash prizes. He got 84 proxies (85 but one was disqualified). The HOA refused to accept the proxies at the election saying the method used to gather them was in violation of Florida's Gambling statute, FS 849.

From the arbitrator's decision:

From DBPR Case 2008-06-5770
The issue of the whether the drawing for cash prizes for those who submitted proxies to “The Committee for Fairness in Coral Reef” was an illegal lottery is not within the jurisdiction of the Division and cannot be addressed as part of the arbitration petition as a matter of law. Such determination must be made by a Court of competent jurisdiction. Therefore, without such a finding, the Association improperly rejected the proxies as invalid pursuant to Fla. Stat. § 849.09.



From DBPR Case 2008-06-5770
Respondent also alleges it rejected the proxies offered by Petitioner because the drawing constituted a bribe for the homeowner. Neither state law nor the Association’s governing documents prohibits a shareholder/homeowner from receiving cash, or in this case, an opportunity to win cash, in exchange for his or her proxy.



From DBPR Case 2008-06-5770
The concept of “one man [or woman] one vote” is of fundamental concern in elections of a democratic republic such as the United States and the states. However, the case at hand relates to proxies of shareholders of an homeowners association corporation.



From DBPR Case 2008-06-5770
In the case at hand, the homeowner/shareholders of the association sold their proxies for an opportunity to win cash. Such exchanges are not barred by statute or the association governing documents. Accordingly, the Association improperly rejected the eighty-four proxies for that reason.



Many people want to apply the same standards and laws that pertain to the civic elections of public officials to HOA and Condo elections, but it's a false equivalence. Your board members are not your "representatives" because a corporation is not a representative democracy. You're electing directors of the corporation, not a city council.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2463


07/04/2018 5:31 PM  
Posted By BenA2 on 07/04/2018 4:34 PM
I doubt buying proxies is illegal in most states but it doesn't pass the smell test.

I do agree that it's sleazy. Note that, in the FL cases at least, an HOA's governing documents may prohibit the practice. Not exactly something anyone thinks about while drafting or amending their documents. Maybe more association's should.
AugustinD


Posts:1139


07/04/2018 7:59 PM  
Posted By GenoS on 07/04/2018 5:26 PM
Many people want to apply the same standards and laws that pertain to the civic elections of public officials to HOA and Condo elections, but it's a false equivalence. Your board members are not your "representatives" because a corporation is not a representative democracy. You're electing directors of the corporation, not a city council.


I do not see as black and white. The courts frequently call HOAs "quasi-governmental." They use this governmental aspect of HOAs to justify certain decisions. One example is when a HOA seeks to penalize a member for violating covenants. The courts require that the HOA provide "due process" to the member. This explicitly refers to the "due process" protections of the U.S. Constitution's 5th and 14th amendments. Why do the courts require HOAs to provide due process? The courts say the reason is that much of what a HOA does is governmental.

In my view, a HOA member is electing a government. It is a government which can have an enormous impact on one's day-to-day life. By contrast, the typical for-profit corporation does not have nearly the same impact on a shareholder's day-to-day life. For example, the publicly traded company Pepsi Cola cannot tell a shareholder what curtains he or she can hang; how to maintain his or her front yard; or that the member has to pay it money because Pepsi's factories' infrastructure is aged and failing.

As far as buying votes for a HOA election: If the outcome of a vote on an issue is not important to Member X, I am not seeing sleaze in Member Y buying Member X's vote. The purchase represents Member Y's high interest in the outcome, and perhaps for excellent reasons. I guess people could argue that this leads to whoever has the most money controlling a HOA's destiny. My counter is that if the wealthy ones destroy the place, people will vote them out of office. The members control the destiny of the HOA.

To me the greater abuse is incumbents using HOA resources to promote themselves and their side of issues in elections. I have seen incumbents pay the HOA attorney to attack non-incumbent candidates. This happens far more often, and it's hard to fight.

Thanks for the quotations from the Florida proxy-lottery case. It's a good read.
BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/05/2018 9:48 AM  
Thanks for your responses. It seems it is not illegal, cannot be rejected, and there's nothing in our bylaws that prohibits votes from being bought by one member from another or anything about selling your vote.

I will have to allow the proxies.

If we allow the proxies, can he use his personal vote to nominate an issue and then second himself with the proxy votes to push an issue forward? Such as voting me out, raising dues, and preventing the rest of the home owners from ever getting rid of him?


AugustinD


Posts:1139


07/05/2018 10:08 AM  
Posted By BrentS5 on 07/05/2018 9:48 AM
If we allow the proxies, can he use his personal vote to nominate an issue and then second himself with the proxy votes to push an issue forward? Such as voting me out, raising dues, and preventing the rest of the home owners from ever getting rid of him?


Anything this mister-buyer-of-votes brings forth at a meeting of the members has to be substantively on the agenda. This is because of legal notice requirements. The purpose of the legal notice requirements are to inform people of the topics so they can decide whether to attend. Hence if someone raises an issue spontaneously at a meeting, and those not attending were not legally noticed of this, then it is unlawful to have the discussion and a possible vote on it. If there is a meeting that is dedicated specifically to votes on the issues to which you referred in the first post, he cannot raise other issues.

(If anything is hankering to have a discussion of topics not on the agenda, they could to it informally after the regular meeting, without Minutes recording it, time and space allowing.)

Do your governing documents say something like proxy holders may only vote on motions and not otherwise participate? If not, what I am seeing on the net is he can make a motion representing himself and then second it via his proxy for another. Discussion is supposed to follow, then a vote.





JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


07/05/2018 10:13 AM  
Posted By BrentS5 on 07/05/2018 9:48 AM
Thanks for your responses. It seems it is not illegal, cannot be rejected, and there's nothing in our bylaws that prohibits votes from being bought by one member from another or anything about selling your vote.

I will have to allow the proxies.

If we allow the proxies, can he use his personal vote to nominate an issue and then second himself with the proxy votes to push an issue forward? Such as voting me out, raising dues, and preventing the rest of the home owners from ever getting rid of him?






Depends on the powers granted (or not) in the proxies.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5842


07/05/2018 3:20 PM  
The other issues aside, unless he's ON the Board he cannot vote you out as prez. Only the Board can vote for officers. Read your bylaws, Brent.

I don't think he can use a proxy to second a motion he makes at a members meeting. I b believe this is from Robert's Rules of Order where only members of the body holding the meeting can make & second motions. Easily might be wrong though.

AugustinD


Posts:1139


07/05/2018 7:08 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 07/05/2018 10:08 AM
Do your governing documents say something like proxy holders may only vote on motions and not otherwise participate? If not, what I am seeing on the net is he can make a motion representing himself and then second it via his proxy for another. Discussion is supposed to follow, then a vote.


For the record, the only power that the governing documents of both my current HOA and my previous HOA give to proxy holders (a.k.a. "proxies") is to cast votes. Those members who are absent may not have the proxy holder express the absent member's opinion; second motions; raise "points of order"; et cetera.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5842


07/05/2018 7:29 PM  
I agree, Augustin--you said it better than I.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


07/05/2018 9:32 PM  
We can, 'we' being whatever member(s) with 51% proxies can remove and replace officers on the BOD. The docs are silent on proxies for that, but it can be done. It's been tried and the legal argument was over whether the *proxies* included the language allowing them to do so, not our docs. Which they did. The docs simply say by a majority of owners as defined above (which is 51%) is required. The language for proxies is included in the section regarding quorum. '51% represented in person or by proxy'.

I would wager that OP's situation is similar. If there is a mechanism for owners to remove and replaced BOD members, it can probably be done with proxies. If the guy must have a second or even third person with him, I am sure he can arrange that. But I am not sure he does..........

KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5842


07/05/2018 9:43 PM  
Jennifer , plea give us the exact language whereby Owners can remove officers. It's well known that owners can vote out directors via recall. But officers???

In my HOA and I think per CA Corporations code, only the Board can vote out officers, e.g prez, treasurer,
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


07/05/2018 10:01 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/05/2018 9:43 PM
Jennifer , plea give us the exact language whereby Owners can remove officers. It's well known that owners can vote out directors via recall. But officers???

In my HOA and I think per CA Corporations code, only the Board can vote out officers, e.g prez, treasurer,





We cannot say Sally can't be President anymore, but we can remove Sally entirely from the board and replace her with Bob. Whether Bob fills the President spot, the other directors will decide, but we can replace Sally with Bob.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


07/05/2018 10:14 PM  
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/05/2018 9:43 PM
Jennifer , plea give us the exact language whereby Owners can remove officers. It's well known that owners can vote out directors via recall. But officers???

In my HOA and I think per CA Corporations code, only the Board can vote out officers, e.g prez, treasurer,




Oh, sorry, on a re-read here I realize I used the word officers rather than directors, and that is all I needed to clarify. Sorry! But for the purpose of the OP, the point I think is can this man with the proxies vote him away, and I believe the answer is yes. If he has a replacement to vote in.

The man with the proxies cannot say 'You're still on the board, but no longer President', but being able to remove him entirely is even worse, is it not?

I AM starting to wonder about this language for my association given that it says the BOD can remove and replace officers at will, not directors. I've been thinking of the terms as interchangeable when I read that paragraph, I guess, and others here have been too.

I just re-read that, and for the BOD to remove and replace, it only refers to officers, not directors. Hm. This I really need to know.

So if the BOD 'removes' an officer, they can still stay on the board and cast votes, they are just stripped of whatever rights and duties assigned to their position as Pres, VP, whatever?
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7713


07/05/2018 11:42 PM  
I think there is more to this story than is being revealed by the OP. Seems there is more back story here. Something just has set wrong with me on how this situation is being handled. Especially when finding out the OP revealed the collection amount of the owner. That's a big red flag to me. I would never reveal that information to anyone but the owner who owes money.

Something is off here. Why is this person stating their intentions of buying the votes? What is their goal? There ultimately more to this story. Little worried this person is trying to play some games here and on the OP. I've had some people try this to me as President. Had someone we were going to foreclose on. They called me pretending to be another person. Talked like they were a 3rd party. Was trying to get out of the foreclosure. A few slip ups and figured out it really was the owner. So need to be a bit astute on what game someone is playing with you. Have a feeling there is a game here... The question is: Is it monopoly or Life?

Former HOA President
BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/06/2018 5:47 AM  
I feel the same way. Lesson learned about revealing information. This individual wants the hoa gone. He wants his friend a home builder who is not licensed contractor to be able to build and do whatever he pleases to our neighborhood. He also does not like us trying to prevent damage to our roads by not renewing agreement to allow public school buses to drive on our private roads. He doesn’t want his kid to walk 1/4 mile to the bus stop.

So he is pulling this play is the best I can think of it.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


07/06/2018 6:05 AM  
Posted By BrentS5 on 07/06/2018 5:47 AM
I feel the same way. Lesson learned about revealing information. This individual wants the hoa gone. He wants his friend a home builder who is not licensed contractor to be able to build and do whatever he pleases to our neighborhood. He also does not like us trying to prevent damage to our roads by not renewing agreement to allow public school buses to drive on our private roads. He doesn’t want his kid to walk 1/4 mile to the bus stop.

So he is pulling this play is the best I can think of it.





OK, but hey, you are in another thread asking 'Do I have to send out ballots or proxies?' That is very odd, obviously you need as many votes as you can get to counter this guy, don't you? Why are you wanting to do the bare minimum towards a goal you aspire to achieve?
BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/06/2018 6:10 AM  
I am not doing bare minimum. I have spent my own time and money making this meeting, printing these forms, and taking calls from all over the country on my lunch break. I take abusive calls from this individual and have them show up at my house demanding this or that.

Because of this person I have agreed to reschedule the meeting, send a new form, and again spend my time printing and making envelopes. We don’t have a secretary because they resigned. The VP and me are on our own. We aren’t lawyers. I’m 34 years old. I haven’t lived in retirement villages that have million dollar HOA budgets.

I’m looking for help with hope.
BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/06/2018 6:13 AM  
The answer to this persons demand of “you have to resend the letter you must include a ballot” is no no I don’t based on the answers in that forum. But I am sending a “who do you designate as proxy?” Form even though no one knows anybody.

I would not call that sneaky or hiding some agenda or doing the bare minimum.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:492


07/06/2018 7:04 AM  
Posted By BrentS5 on 07/06/2018 6:13 AM
The answer to this persons demand of “you have to resend the letter you must include a ballot” is no no I don’t based on the answers in that forum. But I am sending a “who do you designate as proxy?” Form even though no one knows anybody.

I would not call that sneaky or hiding some agenda or doing the bare minimum.




I certainly did not mean you are being sneaky or whatever. As I said, I was wondering why the question was phrased as 'Do I *have to*'? when it seems you'd WANT to make it as easy as possible for people to vote, seeing as how you want these things passed, and I presume you need a healthy % of the people to get by-law changes.

As to the matter of people not knowing anyone, they can designate you or the VP or a rep from a MC if you have one to vote in their stead.

This way, people who can't come to the meeting but want to vote, you are making that possible. You'll want to allow them to mail or email it or drop it off, whatever they wish to make it the easiest for them.

The proxy can be structured to allow people to designate whomever to actually make the selections for them, or they can make their own selections but designate you or whoever to be present and cast the votes for their selections.

I've seen it done two ways here: Two forms, perhaps that cuts down on confusion. This form is for this way, and that form is for that way.

This year it was combined onto one form.

I'm sorry about this crazy situation with this guy.

BrentS5
(North Carolina)

Posts:41


07/06/2018 7:39 AM  
I appreciate the guidance. I am speaking with lawyer today about this to make sure everything is on the up and up. Afterwards I will update the letter, extend the meeting date to give people more time, and send at least a form listing the issues being voted on along with who you want to designate as proxy or I will send full ballot as well. I’ll have to check if email is allowed in our bylaws but it probably is.
AugustinD


Posts:1139


07/06/2018 9:39 AM  
Posted By BrentS5 on 07/06/2018 6:13 AM
But I am sending a “who do you designate as proxy?” Form even though no one knows anybody.


-- I believe many practice the custom of offering, on the proxy form, the board or the names of directors as proxies, along with a fill-in-the-blank option, where the person can write someone else's name.

-- I think this yahoo who is calling you constantly and showing up at your door needs to be put on notice. Inform you will only communicate via {email; phone; certified letter; during the hours of __ to __; take your pick}

-- Keep your receipts for the money you spend to make the vote happen, and reimburse yourself from the treasury, with the approval of a majority of the board. The Bylaws or Declaration typically state that directors can be reimbursed.

-- Don't hesitate to call, email or snail mail people on your own dime to get out the vote. There are only 13 of you, after all. Directors are not allowed to use HOA resources to do campaigning. You would be contacting people as a member. The mister-buyer-of-votes has the right to all the contact info, and doing the same campaigning for his side of things, as well.

GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2463


07/06/2018 1:19 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 07/06/2018 9:39 AM
-- I believe many practice the custom of offering, on the proxy form, the board or the names of directors as proxies, along with a fill-in-the-blank option, where the person can write someone else's name.

I recently saw an example of a proxy form that was given in the name of "the Board". Does that mean the entire board must vote to decide which way to vote such a proxy? Giving it to the Secretary or the President or someone else by name seems to be clear cut whereas "the Board" is a little ambiguous (unless they vote).
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7713


07/06/2018 4:50 PM  
My words of advice: Know they enemy then know what steps they have to take to get to their goal. Dissolving a HOA? Much more difficult than one thinks. Our HOA if we were to dissolve, we'd have to hire a management company to run us. Which means we no longer have voting rights and they can charge what they want. We pay their salary. Other HOA's if they disband, they lose alot of their buying power. It's better for a large group than individuals to spend money.

If that person is unlicensed, you can report them to the code department IF you see them doing any work. They have to see it first hand unfortunately. I know because had an unlicensed/uninsured ex-president doing work without a license. Called the city up and they said they had to see him do it first hand before they could process charges/fines.

This guy is a driving force that you need to keep an eye on for sure. Time to get to know his end game. It sounds like it's money. So figure out what his financial gain is in this scenario. It can be your fight's answer for other owners against him.

Former HOA President
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4151


07/07/2018 12:20 AM  
Posted By BrentS5 on 07/04/2018 5:40 AM
And yes I have a paper trail. He called me and told me he was going to buy their votes. He emailed me asking the amounts they owed on Facebook and said in writing he was going to pay them off. I’m waiting on the checks written by him to the POA in the amounts they owed.


HOPE you did not provide that information!!! No Owner other than the BOD who is attempting to collect money from delinquent owner’s and those delinquent owner’s should be privy to such information (which is why these issues are discussed by the BOD in a private BOD session). The overall HOA members can only know the total amount due to the HOA via delinquent HOA dues, but NOT who owes what or how much in many states under their laws. That could potentially violate credit privacy laws.
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:746


07/07/2018 5:27 AM  
Not trying to hijack the thread ...

Does anyone know if Florida disallows sharing of who owes unpaid dues?

I was just looking at the liens filed by my current HOA yesterday ...the r corded lien states clearly the amount and dates.

If not in Florida law somewhere, is there a good reason to not provide this on the community website?
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7713


07/07/2018 5:53 AM  
Liens and foreclosures are PUBLIC notices. Matter of fact it's part of the process when you file one. They have to be published in a PUBLIC resource like a newspaper. Best place to find out is in your local newspaper in the Classified section when they publish the LEGALS section. Each newspaper is different and each public resource may be different in your specific area. Now a days, newspapers are falling to the wayside more and more. So there may be other ways this is communicated publically in your part of the world.

Now, I don't think one should be able to call up their HOA and say "How much does Joe Smo at Lot #13 owes?". Think that is a bit of an invasion of privacy. Especially if it's NOT at the point of lien or need to take action. It's not that one doesn't have the right to know what is owed the HOA. It's just as an individual I don't feel my HOA should be telling my neighbors I missed a payment this month. Especially if it was for some kind of personal issue and had made arrangements to catch up.

Former HOA President
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5842


07/07/2018 7:47 AM  
Say, George, the topic of publicizing the names of delinquents really should be a new three. But look at past discussions here. It's been discussed many times, though not recently. Some believe public shaming is a wonderful idea, others point out the perils.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2463


07/07/2018 8:23 AM  
Posted By JanetB2 on 07/07/2018 12:20 AM
No Owner other than the BOD who is attempting to collect money from delinquent owner’s and those delinquent owner’s should be privy to such information (which is why these issues are discussed by the BOD in a private BOD session).

That depends on what state you're in. While it doesn't have to be announced publicly, and usually isn't, in Florida every homeowner is entitled to inspect the monthly financial reports - all of them - where they can see who's behind, how much they owe and how late they are in paying it. This kind of information does not meet either of the 2 requirements to have a closed Board meeting.

At the same time, you can't publish a "deadbeats list" in Florida so, again, this sort of information is not posted conspicuously or spoken about in detail at board meetings, but it's not a state secret, either. You just have to go through the right channels to get it.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:7812


07/07/2018 9:13 AM  
I am one that likes public shaming. I say publish the names for all to see.
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