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Subject: Is it even legal to not have a presidnet or vice presidnet at the same time.
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NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:199


07/01/2018 2:12 PM  
I was digging thru the atrocious HOA history and see more glaring issues.

In 1999 , 2000 and 20001, with sunbiz. Which is Floirda's record keeping website.

Our HOA had no vice president or president or secretary.

They went about 3 years with all 3 spots vacant.

Is this even legal?

You guys when I tell you that this HOA we have here is incompetent from the ground up, I am not kidding.


If Im right that you can have a mostly vacant board......how could they even make decisions?
Does that mean any work done during those years would be null and void?
MelissaP1
(Alabama)

Posts:7477


07/01/2018 2:22 PM  
Stop over analyzing all of this. Seriously no one is going to jail over it. It just the apathy level of your HOA is evident. Plus I am not sure that you would ever see my name as President on any website like that. It has to be reported by someone to get there. It's not like they are calling every HOA and saying "What is the name of your board members".

I don't even think there is an overall website or resource that would have every single HOA on it in any state. Even though the Articles of Incorporation and CC&R's are PUBLIC documents. They are kept in the records department who may or may not post it anywhere

So what do you mean by is this legal? That is an open ended question. What you want to sue? Sue who? You and your neighbors for being apathetic? Don't look in the past for your answers. You want changes or get rid of apathy then work on it now. That's all you can do.

Former HOA President
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:199


07/01/2018 2:25 PM  
I'm not saying legal as "someones going to jail"

Lets say the FL statue says XYZ has to be voted for by the board and approved by the president.

If their is no president, or secretary. How could any new bylaws changes, or any thing else be possible, as their was a incomplete Board.

I'm under the impression if a presidnet steps down , it should be filled by someone, or at least by a timeframe.

Good news is though, I have rounded up 30 people in my community of which no more than 50 has ever showed up to any one meeting.

So things are going to be taking a turn for the better, thats for sure.
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:199


07/01/2018 2:55 PM  
I'm not saying that for a period of a month or so there was no president / vice president and secretary. I'm saying for 3 years in a row, they even filed with the state showing that their was nobody at all the entire time. No names list. Just a blank area for those 3.


Even in the 1999 book it lists the board members and those spots are blank.
JohnC46
(South Carolina)

Posts:7594


07/01/2018 2:57 PM  
Noah

If there was a BOD and they operated properly, let it go.
KerryL1
(California)

Posts:5389


07/01/2018 3:44 PM  
Nearly 20 years ago, Noah? Really?

And, AGAIN, we have pointed out to you a number of times the difference between officers and directors. What OFFICERS do your bylaws require? Do you have them now?
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:199


07/01/2018 3:48 PM  
I know you would be wondering why 20 years ago I would be diging up paperwork.

Well 20 years ago , the covenants were changed to not include language of "no poultry , no livestock" and if I can find some type of a loophole that would prove that the board was not valid, then t

ARTICLE IV - OFFICERS
Section 1. Officers
The Officers of the Oak Forest Homeowners/Civic Association, Inc. shall be:
(1). President
(2). Vice President
(3). Secretary
(4). Treasurer
Officers shall be elected at the October meeting in odd numbered years and shall hold office for
a period of two years. Installation of Officers and Board Members shall be held at the December
membership meeting. When it is impossible for the Officers to be elected at the October
membership meeting, the Board of Directors will have the responsibility of electing to office the
President and any other office not filled by the election process. These appointments shall be
made bv a vote of two-thirds of the Board members1820 dues received.



NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:199


07/01/2018 3:49 PM  
Minus the 1820 dues received part....
GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:349


07/01/2018 6:11 PM  
So - there was a Board (since someone filed) but the Board did not appoint a P, VP, etc ...

Not sure there is a foul as far as Florida is concerned ... unless there was insolvency and then it gets fuzzier ...

The Board is just the functional part of the HOA - the HOA still exists - apathetic membership - but, likely no legal harm or foul. For there to be a broken law or regulation - SOMEONE must do something ... if there was nothing done, and no one to blame ... see ...??
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2228


07/01/2018 6:18 PM  
Posted By NoahA on 07/01/2018 2:12 PM
I was digging thru the atrocious HOA history and see more glaring issues.

In 1999 , 2000 and 20001, with sunbiz. Which is Floirda's record keeping website.

Our HOA had no vice president or president or secretary.

They went about 3 years with all 3 spots vacant.

Is this even legal?

You guys when I tell you that this HOA we have here is incompetent from the ground up, I am not kidding.


If Im right that you can have a mostly vacant board......how could they even make decisions?
Does that mean any work done during those years would be null and void?

So who filed the Annual Reports with the Division of Corporations? If they're on SunBiz then somebody filed them.

As long as the corporation has at least 3 directors then it's legal. It might be in violation of your governing documents, but it's not illegal. The directors make up the board, not the officers. The board is empowered to make decisions whether or not you have officers (P,VP,T,S). It sounds like your HOA is a steaming pile of offal but if you don't have any executive officers then that doesn't mean the board is vacant.

There are a lot of dysfunctional HOAs and condo associations, many run by people who don't have a clue regarding what they're supposed to be doing.
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:199


07/01/2018 6:19 PM  
Well for all those that notice my posts. I have them at a compromise now.

The current HOA board is going to have a meeting in July to discuss to.

A. Remove the chickens OR
B. grandfather in chickens in some way that where the last one that dies , your no longer able to get new ones

So that to me is a victory all the way around that means in 8 years from now , we will be livestock free.

I just cant stand the former president that allowed all that to happen to begin with.
ScottO1
(Florida)

Posts:4


07/01/2018 9:38 PM  
State of Florida requires an annual filing for corporations, LLC etc. most likely a revenue generator for the state. these annual reports are posted online and searchable to the general public. sunbiz.org
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:243


07/01/2018 10:04 PM  
If your current plan doesn't work, I think it's a waste of time to try and go back 20 years to try and declare something invalid. Especially when it negatively affects the homeowners with the chickens, that wouldn't hold up.
DouglasK1
(Florida)

Posts:1153


07/02/2018 5:55 AM  
The fact that officers weren't listed on Sunbiz doesn't necessarily mean they weren't appointed, it could just be that whoever sent in the state registration didn't include that information. I'm with the others who think that statutes of limitation, laches, or some other reason would make it difficult to challenge something that was done 20 years ago.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
AugustinD


Posts:1045


07/02/2018 6:56 AM  
Posted By NoahA on 07/01/2018 3:48 PM
I know you would be wondering why 20 years ago I would be diging up paperwork. Well 20 years ago , the covenants were changed to not include language of "no poultry , no livestock" and if I can find some type of a loophole that would prove that the board was not valid, then... [snip for brevity]



If you are going to question the validity of the amendment to the covenants, then I think your better bet is to see if the procedures for amending were followed. E.g. was a vote of the membership required? Did the right number of members vote to delete the language you mention above? Was the amendment recorded with the county?
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:243


07/03/2018 9:32 PM  
Posted By AugustinD on 07/02/2018 6:56 AM
Posted By NoahA on 07/01/2018 3:48 PM
I know you would be wondering why 20 years ago I would be diging up paperwork. Well 20 years ago , the covenants were changed to not include language of "no poultry , no livestock" and if I can find some type of a loophole that would prove that the board was not valid, then... [snip for brevity]



If you are going to question the validity of the amendment to the covenants, then I think your better bet is to see if the procedures for amending were followed. E.g. was a vote of the membership required? Did the right number of members vote to delete the language you mention above? Was the amendment recorded with the county?




That is hard to prove 20 years later, and on whom is is incumbent upon TO prove? Excluding the recorded at the county part.
GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2228


07/03/2018 10:31 PM  
There's a statute of limitations in Florida to challenge a recorded amendment. Here's an informative page on the subject by a FL law firm: http://www.kbrlegal.com/appellate-courts-clarify-statue-limitations-affect-claims-invalidate-amendments-governing-documents/

After 5 years no challenge will be heard even if the challenger is "right".
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:243


07/03/2018 10:44 PM  
Posted By GenoS on 07/03/2018 10:31 PM
There's a statute of limitations in Florida to challenge a recorded amendment. Here's an informative page on the subject by a FL law firm: http://www.kbrlegal.com/appellate-courts-clarify-statue-limitations-affect-claims-invalidate-amendments-governing-documents/

After 5 years no challenge will be heard even if the challenger is "right".




There is something similar in Texas, thanks for finding it for the OP. Not to take away from your cause, Noah, but just knowing which things are dead ends will help you focus on what you CAN do.

GenoS
(Florida)

Posts:2228


07/03/2018 11:20 PM  
I, too, wish Noah the best even though I find him frustrating from time to time. I think he might have good reasons for being as upset as he is with how his association operates, but I also think he needs to gather a lot more information and come up with a good game plan to follow. I realize that can be daunting. Rome wasn't built in a day and it can take years to untangle some of the messy situations ever-changing volunteer boards get themselves into.
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:199


07/04/2018 6:14 AM  
To clear things up for people even more.

A TINY HOME which looks just like 1/2 of a mobile home trailer, is sitting on a trailer (car hauler) trailer, and the code enforcement was called instead of teh HOA just enforcing our deed restrictions.

I called the county to see in 2 months time as May 21 2018 was when the "president" called it in, he said "County for sure would not allow that", well guess what, the county made him get a tag for it like a RV , and its still there.

So despite our deed restrictions saying only ONE dwelling per lot, now we have a house , of which behind it is a "tiny home mobile home" using a loop hole with the county to keep it on a trailer bed.......

So basically this place now has been reduced to a trailer park , and at that guys house their is 9 cars strowed around his lawn.

Easily the worst offender around here, and the president cant even get any control over that.

That ONE house having that tiny trailer breaks 5 of our deed restriction covenants.

ONE
1.01 USE RESTRICTIONS
Each and every one of the lots shall be known and described as residential lots
and its use shall be limited to no more than one single family dwelling not to
exceed two stories in height on any one lot. The 1 -acre tract used for the central
water system is excluded from these restrictions.

the "NO MORE THAN ONE SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING."

TWO

3.01 RESIDENTIAL SITES and BUILDING SIZE RESTRICTIONS
No lot as shown on the plats shall be divided or re subdivided unless both portions
of said lots be used to increase the size of an adjacent lot or the adjacent lots as
platted. Divided portions of lots must extend from fronting street to existing rear
property line. No residence having a living area of less than fifteen hundred
(1,500) square feet (excluding porches, garages, carports, and other accessory
buildings not completely enclosed and intended as living quarters for humans)
shall be erected on any lot shown on any plats of Frumpy Forest. Every structure
placed on any lot shall be constructed on site from new material, unless the use of
other than new material shall have received the written approval of the ACC.
Each residence shall have, in addition to the foregoing a minimum two (2) car
attached garage.


It's not large enough, not that its allowed by 1st point.And MUST BE APPROVED BY THE ACC


THREE

5.01 TEMPORARY RESIDENCE
No trailer, basement, tent, shack, garage, bam or other outbuilding erected on any
lot shall at any time be used as a residence, temporarily or permanently, nor shall
any residence of a temporary character be permitted.

3 separate people on that road say that around 615 am a woman leaves it and reurns aroudn 5pm that day, its being used as a dwelling.


FOUR

maintained in a clean and sanitary condition.
10.01 VEHICLES
No tractor-trailers, trucks (other than camping type travel vehicles originally
manufactured for said purpose), buses, or other like vehicles may be parked
overnight on any of the streets, roads or lots; exccpt trucks of a rated weight of
one ton or less shall not be prohibited.

FIVE

10.01 VEHICLES
No tractor-trailers, trucks (other than camping type travel vehicles originally
manufactured for said purpose), buses, or other like vehicles may be parked
overnight on any of the streets, roads or lots; except trucks of a rated weight of
one ton or less shall not be prohibited.


And I'm sure their are more I could pull from our deed restriction's but if there's a HOA where the lights are on but nobody home to perform work, then were letting the whole neighborhood go the hell.

So imagine a hose that sides are moldy and looking well over "keeping it in good shape" , of which 9 cars are strewed around teh front year and side of the houes, and their is dilapidated sheds on the side visible and right behind that is a "tiny home" that looks like you split a double wide in 1/2 , and is being a home for purportedly his daughter, but a woman none the less.

In a deed restricted community.............this is just why everyone here is up in arms. When the president is getting mobbed with emails and phone calls from 20 different houses and refusing to take action.

This is why were all talking about getting a lawyer as I think a good ole fashioned lawsuit might scare the board off totally and competent people can take over, or we would win a nice settlement and make it clear that the voice's of the community are who suppose to be running the show. Its the Home Owner Association not the board member association.


GeorgeS21
(Florida)

Posts:349


07/04/2018 6:53 AM  
Stop complaining.

Get neighbors together.

Pay attorney to write formal certified delivery letter.

Recall the Board, or Board President.

Manage the HOA yourself.

But, PLEASE STOP COMPLAINING - get busy and fix it.

JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:243


07/04/2018 6:56 PM  





This is why were all talking about getting a lawyer as I think a good ole fashioned lawsuit might scare the board off totally and competent people can take over, or we would win a nice settlement and make it clear that the voice's of the community are who suppose to be running the show. Its the Home Owner Association not the board member association.






If you have this much support, and people willing to serve on the board, what is the point of a lawsuit rather than just getting on the board and turning the situation around?
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:199


07/06/2018 8:57 PM  
Because We cant wait til Oct when only 3 people come up from renewal.

On a panel of 9, you must have 5 thinking people that are pro enforcement.

If you only have 3 people out of 9, then the 3 that want enforcement can be out voted by the 6 that think we just need to ignore everything.
NoahA
(Florida)

Posts:199


07/06/2018 8:57 PM  
Because We cant wait til Oct when only 3 people come up from renewal.

On a panel of 9, you must have 5 thinking people that are pro enforcement.

If you only have 3 people out of 9, then the 3 that want enforcement can be out voted by the 6 that think we just need to ignore everything.
JenniferG11
(Texas)

Posts:243


07/06/2018 10:11 PM  
Posted By NoahA on 07/06/2018 8:57 PM
Because We cant wait til Oct when only 3 people come up from renewal.

On a panel of 9, you must have 5 thinking people that are pro enforcement.

If you only have 3 people out of 9, then the 3 that want enforcement can be out voted by the 6 that think we just need to ignore everything.




Your docs don't allow removal/replacement at any time with the required % of owners in favor of it?
JanetB2
(Colorado)

Posts:4108


07/07/2018 1:41 AM  
Posted By NoahA on 07/04/2018 6:14 AM
To clear things up for people even more.

A TINY HOME which looks just like 1/2 of a mobile home trailer, is sitting on a trailer (car hauler) trailer, and the code enforcement was called instead of teh HOA just enforcing our deed restrictions.

I called the county to see in 2 months time as May 21 2018 was when the "president" called it in, he said "County for sure would not allow that", well guess what, the county made him get a tag for it like a RV , and its still there.

So despite our deed restrictions saying only ONE dwelling per lot, now we have a house , of which behind it is a "tiny home mobile home" using a loop hole with the county to keep it on a trailer bed.......

So basically this place now has been reduced to a trailer park , and at that guys house their is 9 cars strowed around his lawn.

Easily the worst offender around here, and the president cant even get any control over that.

That ONE house having that tiny trailer breaks 5 of our deed restriction covenants.

ONE
1.01 USE RESTRICTIONS
Each and every one of the lots shall be known and described as residential lots
and its use shall be limited to no more than one single family dwelling not to
exceed two stories in height on any one lot. The 1 -acre tract used for the central
water system is excluded from these restrictions.

the "NO MORE THAN ONE SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING."

TWO

3.01 RESIDENTIAL SITES and BUILDING SIZE RESTRICTIONS
No lot as shown on the plats shall be divided or re subdivided unless both portions
of said lots be used to increase the size of an adjacent lot or the adjacent lots as
platted. Divided portions of lots must extend from fronting street to existing rear
property line. No residence having a living area of less than fifteen hundred
(1,500) square feet (excluding porches, garages, carports, and other accessory
buildings not completely enclosed and intended as living quarters for humans)
shall be erected on any lot shown on any plats of Frumpy Forest. Every structure
placed on any lot shall be constructed on site from new material, unless the use of
other than new material shall have received the written approval of the ACC.
Each residence shall have, in addition to the foregoing a minimum two (2) car
attached garage.


It's not large enough, not that its allowed by 1st point.And MUST BE APPROVED BY THE ACC


THREE

5.01 TEMPORARY RESIDENCE
No trailer, basement, tent, shack, garage, bam or other outbuilding erected on any
lot shall at any time be used as a residence, temporarily or permanently, nor shall
any residence of a temporary character be permitted.

3 separate people on that road say that around 615 am a woman leaves it and reurns aroudn 5pm that day, its being used as a dwelling.


FOUR

maintained in a clean and sanitary condition.
10.01 VEHICLES
No tractor-trailers, trucks (other than camping type travel vehicles originally
manufactured for said purpose), buses, or other like vehicles may be parked
overnight on any of the streets, roads or lots; exccpt trucks of a rated weight of
one ton or less shall not be prohibited.

FIVE

10.01 VEHICLES
No tractor-trailers, trucks (other than camping type travel vehicles originally
manufactured for said purpose), buses, or other like vehicles may be parked
overnight on any of the streets, roads or lots; except trucks of a rated weight of
one ton or less shall not be prohibited.


And I'm sure their are more I could pull from our deed restriction's but if there's a HOA where the lights are on but nobody home to perform work, then were letting the whole neighborhood go the hell.

So imagine a hose that sides are moldy and looking well over "keeping it in good shape" , of which 9 cars are strewed around teh front year and side of the houes, and their is dilapidated sheds on the side visible and right behind that is a "tiny home" that looks like you split a double wide in 1/2 , and is being a home for purportedly his daughter, but a woman none the less.

In a deed restricted community.............this is just why everyone here is up in arms. When the president is getting mobbed with emails and phone calls from 20 different houses and refusing to take action.

This is why were all talking about getting a lawyer as I think a good ole fashioned lawsuit might scare the board off totally and competent people can take over, or we would win a nice settlement and make it clear that the voice's of the community are who suppose to be running the show. Its the Home Owner Association not the board member association.




YEP ... My CCR’s State ONE dwelling per Lot; however, I can park my 5th Wheel Trailer on my property as long as nobody is staying or living in that other dwelling. My advice would be to check with your Local Ordinances to see if living in a trailer is allowed on a property over X amount of time with no utility hookups ... my bet is NO! In my last subdivision we had someone try this garbage and when turned into the City they ended up removing the trailer. If your Local Government tries to tell you the HOA can change their documents to not allow ... tell them you do not give a you know what about your CCR’s on this issue because the Local Government via their OWN statutes is liable to uphold their OWN LAWS!!! Those darn governments will always try to shift the burden onto the HOA’s.


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